Masturbation

[Kilgore Trout]

I guess there's always servantbation.

 

[Strength & Honor]

Speaking as an outsider, this is one of the church's major weaknesses. Never, ever, EVER has the institutionalized church been able to handle sexuality in a healthy way. It ends up being repressed, perverted, suppressed, abused, or mishandled much of the time as a result.

Thank you for that broad, sweeping generalization. Just know that my opinions are mine, and do not come from the teachings of any "church," as I do not see the church itself as an authoritative body.

Sexuality is a drive the same as hunger; you develop an appetite for it as you do for food. The nervous system is engaged in different ways (hunger's satisfaction engages the parasympathetic nervous system, slowing all body systems except endocrine and digestive; sex engages sympathetic NS, engaging musculoskeletal and endocrine). Both receive sensory input which allow pleasure to be [part of] the experience.

Both food and sex are, in themselves, inert. They are both part of a healthy lifestyle, but they can both be abused to the point of becoming very unhealthy.

Trust me. I am quite familiar with the pleasure and positive physiological effects of sex (and eating!). However, you are talking to me as if I didn’t enjoy sex for some reason. Let me clarify: I do not believe that sex is a bad thing at all. In fact, sex is freaking awesome! But I’m one of those old fogies that believe sex should be saved for marriage. And in that context, I have found, it is still an incredibly pleasurable, beneficial thing!

The fact that your religion makes sex into such a big deal that it bears 'eternal consequences' is not healthy, imho. As soon as you put a label on something that says, 'FORBIDDEN', it is a *guarantee* there will be mass fascination with it that easily and often turns obsessive, particularly with those people who have vulnerable psyches.

And in my opinion, if you give people free, unrestricted access to sex, there is just as much opportunity for it to be abused, and used to hurt others.

I appreciate your opinion. Again, I don’t view sex as forbidden. Song of Solomon is full of erotic language (SoS 7:4 “…Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon…” Oooo, how romantic!). It comes down to a matter of self-control, which is a point of emphasis in the bible. And sex is just as much a part of that as anything.

similarly, if you leave people the hell alone about sex, most of us do not turn into raving nymphomaniacs prone to gang-rape anything that walks past.

I’m not saying that you do any of those things. Also, who am I bothering with my opinions? I'm not trying to force them on anyone, and I never judge people.

So in the end, all too often the monsters all the institutions ostensibly make their rules to guard against only begin to exist BECAUSE of those rules.

And, obviously, there are no sexual deviants outside the church…

In my opinion, the “free love” mentality has produced just as many sexual deviants as what you claim “the church” has. And simply renaming something from “sin” to “acceptable” doesn’t deal with the problem itself IMO.

 

[Strength & Honor]

Your post seemed to point to the feelings of "I feel ugly whenever I feel sexual urges for the sake of pleasure." Whether it's you who feels that you're dirty, ugly, filthy, or your wife who feels as if she's not good enough for you. That's what I see. So, yes, it seems as if the two of you are internalizing a feeling of ugliness, and that makes my heart go out to the both of you.

It’s not that I feel ugly because of sexual urges. Rather, my wife’s feelings are hurt when I lust after other women. That makes her feel ugly. It makes her feel either that she can’t, or I don’t need her to fulfill my sexual desires, so I feel a responsibility to respect that.

Based on what? Do you have a source? We all have our fantasies to fall back on, you know. And it isn't as if vibrators are sold with a pack of adult film DVDs.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible to masturbate without porn. What I’m saying is that, people who masturbate and never, ever use pornography, ever are in the minority. Usually, people masturbate with the aid of pornography at least some of the time. That’s all I’m trying to get across.

Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer (I see TW has answered that already).

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ozzie]

I guess there's always servantbation.

Its always a manoeuvre.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It’s not that I feel ugly because of sexual urges. Rather, my wife’s feelings are hurt when I lust after other women. That makes her feel ugly. It makes her feel either that she can’t, or I don’t need her to fulfill my sexual desires, so I feel a responsibility to respect that.

Ah, jealousy. It's a shame she feels that way.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible to masturbate without porn. What I’m saying is that, people who masturbate and never, ever use pornography, ever are in the minority. Usually, people masturbate with the aid of pornography at least some of the time. That’s all I’m trying to get across.

After decades of indulging in myself, I can count on one hand the number of times I have used porn to do so. And those who know me understand that I have indulged on many an occasion.

And I know a lot of women who rarely - RARELY - use porn to pleasure themselves. We're not a minority either, my dear, and women are included in the demographic of "everybody."

 

[bain-druie]

Ah, jealousy. It's a shame she feels that way.



After decades of indulging in myself, I can count on one hand the number of times I have used porn to do so. And those who know me understand that I have indulged on many an occasion.

And I know a lot of women who rarely - RARELY - use porn to pleasure themselves. We're not a minority either, my dear, and women are included in the demographic of "everybody."

You TELL it, girl! :yes: I don't believe I've ever yet used porn when pleasuring myself. Don't need it.

 

[Strength & Honor]

Ah, jealousy. It's a shame she feels that way.

It’s more like rejection.

Jealousy has nothing to do with it. Believe me, she is in no way jealous of any porn star, nor has she reason to be. Please understand that we are deeply connected to our religious faith, and to our God. And we believe that God has set up the marriage relationship in such a way that there no sexual gratification outside of that union is needed – that all sexual needs, desires, and fantasies should be, and can be fulfilled in marriage. So, masturbation and pornography are grave violations of that sacred trust.

I’m only saying this to provide a little insight as to the why she gets upset when I look at pornography or masturbate. They are outright violations of our wedding vows, and our most deeply-held beliefs about marriage, sex, and lust.

After decades of indulging in myself, I can count on one hand the number of times I have used porn to do so. And those who know me understand that I have indulged on many an occasion.

And I know a lot of women who rarely - RARELY - use porn to pleasure themselves. We're not a minority either, my dear, and women are included in the demographic of "everybody."

You bring up a good point. I forget that men and women behave differently in this regard. Perhaps, it would be safer to say that men who always masturbate without the use of pornography are a minority.

 

[blackout]

Make no mistake.

There are MANY MANY women who like porn.
Either alone, or with their partner/s.

And so what?

 

[Strength & Honor]

Make no mistake.

There are MANY MANY women who like porn.
Either alone, or with their partner/s.

And so what?

That surprizes me. Most of the women I know truly abhor it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's just my personal observation. It also surprizes me because the porn industry has a reputation for abuse toward its actresses.

 

[LuisDantas]

(...)But I’m one of those old fogies that believe sex should be saved for marriage. And in that context, I have found, it is still an incredibly pleasurable, beneficial thing!

It may easily be. But it really depends a lot on the circunstances.

Marriage is a very serious step (or it is supposed to, anyway) and quite often it is best if people are confortable and at least a bit experienced with their own sexuality before taking it. It can be very ugly if people only find out some important detail of same after establishing life plans with someone else that they care about, after all.

And in my opinion, if you give people free, unrestricted access to sex, there is just as much opportunity for it to be abused, and used to hurt others.

I have a bit of a problem understanding what you mean exactly here. For one thing, sex is a part of everyone's body and mind, so access to it can't really be given except by birth, I guess. For that matter, it can't really be taken away in any non-criminal way, unless I am misunderstanding your meaning.

As for abuse, well, it is always a possibility. But the real countermeasure to the possibility of abuse is always developing wisdom. And such can't really be had with prohibitions, much less with fear.

(...)It comes down to a matter of self-control, which is a point of emphasis in the bible. And sex is just as much a part of that as anything.

True enough, although I wonder what exactly you understand by self-control. Being responsible and being afraid of losing control are not quite the same thing.

I’m not saying that you do any of those things. Also, who am I bothering with my opinions? I'm not trying to force them on anyone, and I never judge people.

It bothers me quite a lot to think that a healthy couple - a married one at that - may be imposing undue guilt over themselves, personally speaking.

Life has enough troubles and limitations already, people shouldn't deny themselves the genuine and healthy joys that they have access to.

And, obviously, there are no sexual deviants outside the church…

Not as many, actually. Fear itself is quite an aggravant, and I must agree with Bain-Druie in that it causes far more sexual trouble than it solves. I can offer an elaboration of why if you want me to.

In my opinion, the “free love” mentality has produced just as many sexual deviants as what you claim “the church” has. And simply renaming something from “sin” to “acceptable” doesn’t deal with the problem itself IMO.

That is not at all the point, however. Renaming plays little or no part on the matter. You may have trouble believing it, but ultimately "non-believers" are not all that different from believers, and if they have enough sexual freedom and maturity they may (and usually do) avoid many of the pitfalls that beleague more conservative believers. It is not safe, but IMO it is definitely safer overall. Self-acceptance is healthy and leads to less mistakes, after all.

(...) You bring up a good point. I forget that men and women behave differently in this regard. Perhaps, it would be safer to say that men who always masturbate without the use of pornography are a minority.

Safer, yes, but not significantly so. Speaking as a man that finds masturbation completely natural and healthy, I don't see any noteworthy relationship between it and pornography. Not even 1% of the time I masturbate I use pornography, and if anything, that was even more true when I began.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That surprizes me. Most of the women I know truly abhor it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's just my personal observation. It also surprizes me because the porn industry has a reputation for abuse toward its actresses.

We must hang out with completely different groups of women, then. Quite a few of women I know like porn because of the spice it brings to the marriage/relationship, or because they like watching the scenes themselves.

A handful of women I know really can't stand porn because of what they feel is exploitation or because they think it's plain disgusting.

 

[McBell]

A handful of women I know really can't stand porn because of what they feel is exploitation or because they think it's plain disgusting.

Out of idle curiosity...
How many of those women you know who can't stand porn read the likes of Danielle Steele?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

A handful of women I know really can't stand porn because of what they feel is exploitation or because they think it's plain disgusting.

They sound like real catches.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Out of idle curiosity...
How many of those women you know who can't stand porn read the likes of Danielle Steele?

LOL! Good point. Yet another mode of fantasy expression portraying sexual and love exploits that are completely unrealistic. But somehow it isn't controversial like porn is. Go figure.

 

[linwood]

for example? would you be kind to explain why are my opinions bad? what are the "bad" consequences of holding opinions like mine?

A deep misunderstanding of the natural world which leads to an immoral worldview.

humans are rational being, and thus essentially different from (other) animals.

Humans are animals, we`re simply the "smartest" of the bunch.
This doesn`t mean other animals lack the ability to rationalize as endless experimental work with other apes have evidenced.

if you have coitus for reproduction only, STDs are not a problem, especially if you get lucky and don't get divorced, so you have coitus with your (one and only) spouse in your life (the same applied to the spouse)- and the possibility for getting an STD is non-extant.

Yes in a fairy tale world.
In this world the largest growing segment of HIV carriers are married monogamous women.
Remember what I said about your opinion leading to immoral worldviews?
This is one example.

and i didn't say that homosexuality is bad for the reason of STDs, but for the reason it is unnatural, being that it cannot result in reproduction.

You need to learn about evolutionary drives/pressures before you think you understand what is "natural" and what is not.

Almost all species mate with no intention of reproducing.
This is a simple fact available to anyone who can see and deduce.

yes, they exists as a part of human nature, but that doesn't make them natural. anger, rage, and urge for violence is a much more integrated and much more prevalent part of human nature, but that doesn't mean it's natural or good.

"Natural" does not equate to "good" or "correct" or "normal".

The emotions and traits you mention are indeed natural and actually "good" to a certain degree depending upon context.

Again, you need to educate yourself about evolutionary drives/pressures before you will ever understand these things.

 

[Rakhel]

Do you wanna know why I watch porn? A small amount of the movies are interesting, but the rest I watch for comedic value. My husband and I sometimes sit here was try to determine which couple is having sex and which are faking(which is a vast majority of them). We laugh at the faces that are made, and the phony moans and the sad plots.

 

[McBell]

Do you wanna know why I watch porn? A small amount of the movies are interesting, but the rest I watch for comedic value. My husband and I sometimes sit here was try to determine which couple is having sex and which are faking(which is a vast majority of them). We laugh at the faces that are made, and the phony moans and the sad plots.

Huh?
wait...
what...
PLOTS?!?!
Pornos have plots?
When the hell did they start that?!

 

[Jeremiah]

Thank you for that broad, sweeping generalization. Just know that my opinions are mine, and do not come from the teachings of any "church," as I do not see the church itself as an authoritative body.

Trust me. I am quite familiar with the pleasure and positive physiological effects of sex (and eating!). However, you are talking to me as if I didn’t enjoy sex for some reason. Let me clarify: I do not believe that sex is a bad thing at all. In fact, sex is freaking awesome! But I’m one of those old fogies that believe sex should be saved for marriage. And in that context, I have found, it is still an incredibly pleasurable, beneficial thing!

And in my opinion, if you give people free, unrestricted access to sex, there is just as much opportunity for it to be abused, and used to hurt others.

I appreciate your opinion. Again, I don’t view sex as forbidden. Song of Solomon is full of erotic language (SoS 7:4 “…Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon…” Oooo, how romantic!). It comes down to a matter of self-control, which is a point of emphasis in the bible. And sex is just as much a part of that as anything.

I’m not saying that you do any of those things. Also, who am I bothering with my opinions? I'm not trying to force them on anyone, and I never judge people.

And, obviously, there are no sexual deviants outside the church…

In my opinion, the “free love” mentality has produced just as many sexual deviants as what you claim “the church” has. And simply renaming something from “sin” to “acceptable” doesn’t deal with the problem itself IMO.

"and I never judge people."

Then how do you judge someone as a "sexual deviant"?

 

[Jeremiah]

Yes, I do. I also have a problem with judging others. I’m the worst offender of them all when it comes to masturbation. I’m the lowest of the low. I know all too well the effects of heavy masturbation and pornography addiction. I fought that battle for more than 12 years (and I’m only 25, though I’ve been “clean” for about two years), and I have many friends in the church (yes, Christians do it, too) who have fought the same battle – some of whom are still struggling. It hurts people – good people like my own wife. She hates it. When I was active in it, it made her feel ugly, unappreciated, and stupid. She cried, she left the house, and she told me that she felt like I had cheated on her. And it was all because I wanted to do something for myself.

You do not know me, so please do not judge me.

"I fought that battle for more than 12 years"

Teens/young adults masturbate a lot; that is perfectly natural and there is nothing wrong with it. It is just flesh touching flesh and it only becomes unhealthy when you turn it into a physiological mindspike, like you have. The only thing unhealthy about masturbation here, is your perverted views on it.

"You do not know me, so please do not judge me."

If you post on a public forum, like this, then you will be judged by other people. That is just the fact of the matter. If you don't want to be judged then don't post.

 

[Jeremiah]

Yes, I do. I also have a problem with judging others. I’m the worst offender of them all when it comes to masturbation. I’m the lowest of the low. I know all too well the effects of heavy masturbation and pornography addiction. I fought that battle for more than 12 years (and I’m only 25, though I’ve been “clean” for about two years), and I have many friends in the church (yes, Christians do it, too) who have fought the same battle – some of whom are still struggling. It hurts people – good people like my own wife. She hates it. When I was active in it, it made her feel ugly, unappreciated, and stupid. She cried, she left the house, and she told me that she felt like I had cheated on her. And it was all because I wanted to do something for myself.

You do not know me, so please do not judge me.

"You do not know me, so please do not judge me."

Now that I think about, I have to wonder as to why you put this here. Could it be that you are ashamed of your views on masturbation? Perhaps, on some, level you understand that they are messed up.

You known what the fact is? The fact is you have a penis, that means you will have sexual urges, you will have lust. That is something you have to live with, something you are going to have to accept. This fake guilt that you have manifested for yourself, or have let others push onto you, is an unnecessary negativity in your life. You are unnecessarily making your own life more miserable.