Materialism in puja

[Sb1995]

Sarcasm is a very important way in which one can express a topic. By changing the point of view it gives people a better chance to grasp the nature of their words. Sarcasm is specifically used in serious situations which is what makes it a disliked form of humor and method of discourse.

If you actually say the way I debate perhaps you will understand but please do not take my usage of sarcasm as funny, because it is not. Great religious philosophers and theologians like Thomas Paine used excessive amounts of sarcasm to bring up points in literary discourse.

It is a very well implemented tactic for debating or negating errors.

I see, carry on.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't think a physical murti or image is 100% necessary, but I have no problem admitting I have issues focusing without it. I have a hard enough time quieting me brain down on a normal basis (as I type this now I am thinking of 15 other different things). So for me to try and think up an image of my deity in my head would not work (it would be weird one moment she would there next she would have tentacles arms and a monocle). I need an object to focus my thoughts on one central point and allow it to assist me in thinking of God. This is one of the reasons I could NEVER be a Muslim.

When I was a Muslim I was sure to never have a carpet that had spots or any fanciful multi color design like most Muslims use for a sajjada.

So if just a multicolor rug is bothering to me then this pretty much shows that I am more interested in the akhil(intellect) then the materialistic existence in relation to the soul . To me this is a far superior mindset

 

[Kalidas]

When I was a Muslim I was sure to never have a carpet that had spots or any fanciful multi color design like most Muslims use for a sajjada.

So if just a multicolor rug is bothering to me then this pretty much shows that I am more interested in the akhil(intellect) then the materialistic existence in relation to the soul . To me this is a far superior mindset

What I meant by never be a Muslim was the direct rule about not using an image. As stated I need a focal point to help my brain. I probably have ADD I was just never tested. Not ADHD because I can sit perfectly still, ADD because it is VERY hard to quiet my brain for more then a few seconds.

It is far superior FOR you.

 

[arpankhandelwal]

I have read the Bhagavad Gita numerous times and this is where I am extracting my thoughts from. Did you not find it ironic that my statements match this? :sarcastic

My brother, didn't you read the following verse that I already wrote in my previous post ?

[BG - 9.28] - In this way by dedicating all your actions unto me, you will be freed from bondage to work and its auspicious and inauspicious results. With your mind fixed on Me in this principle of renunciation, you will be liberated and come to Me.

Now what else do you want ?

Everything in this world, everything that we have today and everything that we use is actually given by god so what I felt and realized that offering something pure heartly with devotion to the God is true love and thanking to the god.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge.- (Bhagvad Gita [4.38])

 

[Vinayaka]

Little bit of an understatement. I was practicing for less then a year (roughly 9 months) and studied before that. I would honestly say I was not really getting into Hinduism for no less than that period.

But your accusation is no more different then when I left Islam and people stated that I was never a Muslim. I ask them to recite to me their 6 favorite surat and they cannot even remember 3 (2 of in which they use in salat). It all comes down to the nature of ego placed in one's own faith or system.

Sorry if you felt it was an accusation. I thought it was an observation. I think (personal opinion) there is some minimum amount of time somebody practices something before I'd consider it truly a path, or vocation. Take monasticism, for instance, usually its in slow increments. Even moving to another country takes like 5 years of living there before citizenship can occur.

I do think you have a pretty good grasp of Hinduism on a scholarly or intellectual level as well. Certainly as good as I do.

 

[Sha'irullah]

My brother, didn't you read the following verse that I already wrote in my previous post ?

[BG - 9.28] - In this way by dedicating all your actions unto me, you will be freed from bondage to work and its auspicious and inauspicious results. With your mind fixed on Me in this principle of renunciation, you will be liberated and come to Me.

Now what else do you want ?

Everything in this world, everything that we have today and everything that we use is actually given by god so what I felt and realized that offering something pure heartly with devotion to the God is true love and thanking to the god.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge.- (Bhagvad Gita [4.38])

You must have misread the previous posts but you are just giving weight to my claims. What do you think I am trying to imply?

I am only saying that one should be fixated upon god and not needless materialistic offerings. The heart is were it is at

 

[Sha'irullah]

Sorry if you felt it was an accusation. I thought it was an observation. I think (personal opinion) there is some minimum amount of time somebody practices something before I'd consider it truly a path, or vocation. Take monasticism, for instance, usually its in slow increments. Even moving to another country takes like 5 years of living there before citizenship can occur.

I do think you have a pretty good grasp of Hinduism on a scholarly or intellectual level as well. Certainly as good as I do.

I have a scholastic understanding of Hinduism just not a practicing understanding of it. I was never able to implement it in any other time frame of over a few months last that I recall. I fell into the stages of skepticism and rejection so I just quit.

I am usually persistent but I blame this for hanging around too many Satanists for a while(bad crowd to hang around with spiritually).

 

[arpankhandelwal]

You must have misread the previous posts but you are just giving weight to my claims. What do you think I am trying to imply?

I am only saying that one should be fixated upon god and not needless materialistic offerings. The heart is were it is at

All the three verses I wrote in the earlier post together make sense for the answer to your question. As written in verse offering leaf, flower etc (these all are materialistic right ?) and god accept it, this is also a way for true love to the god and thanking to the god.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge.- (Bhagvad Gita [4.38])

 

[Poeticus]

I am only saying that one should be fixated upon god and not needless materialistic offerings. The heart is were it is at

Sterling-ji,

What may be materialistic to you may be spiritual to someone else. Johnny down the street will go to the mall, Henry next door will go swimming at the county pool.

 

[Andal]

In my 9 months as a Hindu I had one major issue with puja and that was the constant need of people to use items. Materialism and prayer do not sit well with me as I know a murti is no more sacred than a tree. If one was truly knowledge about the Vedas (which I am not remotely) they would not have come to the conclusion that the need for physicality in worship is not needed.

What are the common attitudes of this? Materialism has often been blamed upon the Hindus but how truthful do you yourselves find this necessary when it comes to you and god.

To me, no such thing is needed when it comes to god then a honest heart and a desire to worship. All of the naivedhya could be offered by a crook and from a hateful heart and no matter how many times one offers flowers to the deity it can still be done from a wicked heart.
So the constant need to offers items seems pointless to me if it proves nothing. I am not saying it is wrong at all but that it is not necessary not provides any true benefit if the heart of the person is in the wrong place.
So materialism and worship do not go well for me as I feel like a fool trying to impress somebody on how much I can give when I cannot give honest gratitude.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of puja. What you see as materialism is someone elses expression of love. For me puja is the main expression of bhakti I do. It is a part of my practice and an essential one at that. It has nothing to do with the materials. We choose the materials to offer that make us happy. Puja offers us a physical way of interacting with God. To say an internal practice or an intellectual pursuit is better is not in the scope of Sanatana Dharma. This is why there is not a sense exclusivity. The practice of a jnana yogi is no more valuable than the practice of the bhakti yogi.

Puja is for human joy. God doesn't need it nor is there any compulsion to do it. If it's not for you then that's fine. Do not mistake the heart felt offerings of the devotee as being mere materialism.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Maija]

I agree, give what you have as others have said. It's not even so much give as it is offer, meaning what you have you offer first to the Lord.

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

For some it's a leaf, water or fruit they may offer up, for others light or a mental image of what they would offer up if they had something.

If you look at how we treat our guests/elderly/those we hold in high esteem, they come to visit us, we offer them a glass of water, a place to sit and we feed them first.

For our God, He doesn't need food, water but when we eat we may offer our food up to Him. As we work, whatever seva we do, we may do it offering it up to Him.

Yes, God needs nothing, not even our prayers of praise or our remembrace, but we benefit from remembering this relationship.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram prabhu ji's :namaste

Yes, God needs nothing, not even our prayers of praise or our remembrace, but we benefit from remembering this relationship.

jai jai , maija ji ,

so much has been said about the way one offers puja but this summs it up perfectly ,ultimately it is for our benifit ,the lord does not need our offerings but he is happy to recive our love .

viraja ji said much earlier on that it is a dicipline , ....

viraja ...
I would like to point out that offering naivedya, flowers, etc, each day to the deity is in itself a 'discipline' to the soul - it requires considerable prepartion for contributing these each day to the deity and thus it requires discipline to do it.

it is a way of us descovering what giving realy means , at first we give with attatchment but in time this giving purifies the heart and we begin to understand wnat giving realy means . then we can give with love , this is what truely pleases the lord .

yes , yes , of course at first we feel we 'HAVE' to do something but when we do this repeatedly as a dicipline the attatchment to results melts away , eventualy we begin to do these things habitualy without thinking 'HAVE TO' then slowly offering takes on a particular bhava , then one offers daily with a joyfull heart .

if one veiws any form of ofering as materialistic it is because we are still attatched ,
stirling gave the example earlier that a man would not offer prayer unless correctly dressed , ....if we judge this from outside we simply impute our own understanding on another persons actions , it is wrong for us to judge anothers actions we should simply judge our own , this man may have the purest intentions and not wish to offer physical prayer unless he has gone through the process of bathing and dressing respectfully , he may have no more attatchment to his dress than it being a matter of cultural respect . ... however another man may think that by wearing the clothes that he becomes a muslim , allthough clothes do not maketh the man , by doing this repeatedly he will learn this and his practice of prayer will slowly transform . we canot know what is in the heart only the lord sees this , and in this way it is not the substance that we offer that the lord receives but the love with which it is given :namaste

in this way eventualy we learn to offer everything , we may be walking to work and be enjoying the sunshine so imidiately we think to offer this glorious day , some one may say beautifull or true words , I will say ''jai jai'' , I am offering their victory , ... we need to understand better what is offerable then we will understand how to offer it .

at first everything appears material because we are traped in a materialistic mind set , puja is a process by which one trancends that conditioning and elevates oneself to a devotional realm , from there everything appears very differently :namaste

 

[Sha'irullah]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of puja. What you see as materialism is someone elses expression of love. For me puja is the main expression of bhakti I do. It is a part of my practice and an essential one at that. It has nothing to do with the materials. We choose the materials to offer that make us happy. Puja offers us a physical way of interacting with God. To say an internal practice or an intellectual pursuit is better is not in the scope of Sanatana Dharma. This is why there is not a sense exclusivity. The practice of a jnana yogi is no more valuable than the practice of the bhakti yogi.

Puja is for human joy. God doesn't need it nor is there any compulsion to do it. If it's not for you then that's fine. Do not mistake the heart felt offerings of the devotee as being mere materialism.

Aum Hari Aum!

I do not misunderstand the purpose at all, I am very much assuming you misunderstand the meaning of my words .

I never said puja is materialistic at all. I only said the need for it to be is materialistic is meaningless.

 

[Andal]

There is no compulsion in Hinduism, there is no "need". Puja and what is included in it are at the discretion of the devotee, the tradition, the temple, and suggestions made in scripture.

I like puja with lots of frills, give me the grand ceremony. Does someone else like or need it? Maybe not.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Vinayaka]

I like puja with lots of frills, give me the grand ceremony. Does someone else like or need it? Maybe not.

Aum Hari Aum!

Absolutely count me in ... a homa follwed by 1008 conch shell abhishekham, a series of aarti lights, getting bigger and bigger, a parade, 1008 names, lots of flowers and fruit, live nadeswaram and thavil, incense everywhere, all culminating in this grand rush of energy, and then ..... total silence ... in those first few moments after that grand deal, if you can't feel it then, you never will.

 

[Andal]

Absolutely count me in ... a homa follwed by 1008 conch shell abhishekham, a series of aarti lights, getting bigger and bigger, a parade, 1008 names, lots of flowers and fruit, live nadeswaram and thavil, incense everywhere, all culminating in this grand rush of energy, and then ..... total silence ... in those first few moments after that grand deal, if you can't feel it then, you never will.

I am right there with you!

Sitting on the ghats in Varanasi for evening aarti with hundreds of people all worshiping Mother with what looks like thousands of lights, everyone singing with love. Or in the temple for Janmashtami, the vew minutes before midnight when they have shut the garbha griha and you can feel the energy and anticipation build until the sanctum doors are opened and the joy is over whelming during the aarti.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

if you can't feel it then, you never will.

Oh, pish posh - never? Maybe just not in this lifetime. Eventually, everyone will get there right?

But I second the notion about frills and high energy - lights and bells! One of the most wonderful things about ritual in Hinduism is that it is celebratory and joyful. We are allowed to celebrate God rather then be forever solemn in his shadow. There is time for silence of course - but I'd like to think that God enjoys a good party.

:camp:

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh, pish posh - never? Maybe just not in this lifetime. Eventually, everyone will get there right?

:camp:

Never never never!!!! Only those who take great joy in the overabundance of ritual like some crazy menagerie of sounds, sights, smells, and tastes.

The rest of those guys can go meditate or argue their way into boredom and darkness.

 

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Sterling Archer

I am also an admirer of Vinayak Savarkar! But honestly, for some reason “I don’t like” some folks. I put that in quotes, because who cares what I like, certainly you don’t. I am just being honest. Actually, those I don’t like are very limited, and I know we are supposed to be nice to as many as we can, but to tell the truth I am not very “happy” with Muslim jihadis, for example let us take the statue of David (yes, that large marble statue of the naked man in Italy). Now, these type of Muslims I speak of, if they had a chance they would take a hammer and smash the statue of David to pieces. Why? Because it is an “idol” and because he is naked.

That really makes me “unhappy” to even imagine that.

I have eyes. Sadly some are blind, but many of us have eyes, and I really like looking at beautiful things. In the puja, the temple, the shrine, of Hinduism, I see many things, a riot of color. That is why I like it. I am not so much a “book worm”. I have a sense of smell. I love incense. In the puja, the temple, the shrine, of Hinduism, I smell many things, a riot to the sense. Incense, flowers, that is why I like it. Now I am really experiencing things! I have ears. Some are deaf, I pray they can hear again soon. I love the sound of bells, and the voice of humanity, and the sound of those singing. In the puja, the temple, the shrine, I hear many things. Bells, chants, songs, voices, and riot of sound. Even those distractions like children, I love it all, it is moving around me. I am experiencing Hinduism. I have a tongue and taste. Food is first offered to the “idol”. Then I get some of it, as prashad (mercy, gift, grace). Wow! I like food. And especially Indian food, snacks, and especially prashad which for some reason is like bang, boom, there is power in it. A riot of things is happening. The “idol” sends “electricity” right at me. I am experiencing it. I like that.

Some like to be alone. But in the puja, the temple, the shrine, I am surrounded by others. Some “others” with a little “o”, and some Others with a capital “O”. I like that. I like to be surrounded by others. Sometimes you just have to be alone. But mostly, I don’t like that for very long.

One day I won't have my eyes, my nose, my touch, my ears, and yes I know, all those "holes" are bascially "blood and puss" (as some Guru said in wisdom). But for now, I got 'em, so I suppose I am going to use them.

Wow. This Hinduism is Great!

Om Namah Sivaya

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram mr archer :namaste

having read your last responce I decided to re read your original post ,

as you say in your ...''9 months as a hindu ''......''one of the major issues'' you have ......is with other people and their practices ???

I can only suggest that 9 months is not sufficient a time for you to understand the devotion behind puja , for many people 9 years is not enough and even at 18 years a person still feels he is learning .....how come after 9 months you ''know''..so certainly...'' that a deity is no more sacred than a tree '' ???

if this does not sit well with you then please leave it out , however prehaps you might be gracious enough to allow others a different perception .

In my 9 months as a Hindu I had one major issue with puja and that was the constant need of people to use items. Materialism and prayer do not sit well with me as I know a murti is no more sacred than a tree. If one was truly knowledge about the Vedas (which I am not remotely) they would not have come to the conclusion that the need for physicality in worship is not needed.

from your comments it would seem that you feel entitled to form an opinion despite by your own admittion you lack actual knowledge , this to me would be a little foolish , or prehaps imature ?

What are the common attitudes of this? Materialism has often been blamed upon the Hindus but how truthful do you yourselves find this necessary when it comes to you and god.

you ask this question , but when you are given perfectly legitimate answers from experienced devotees , you take little from their sincere answers and seek only to push your own opinion .

To me, no such thing is needed when it comes to god then a honest heart and a desire to worship. All of the naivedhya could be offered by a crook and from a hateful heart and no matter how many times one offers flowers to the deity it can still be done from a wicked heart.
So the constant need to offers items seems pointless to me if it proves nothing. I am not saying it is wrong at all but that it is not necessary not provides any true benefit if the heart of the person is in the wrong place.
So materialism and worship do not go well for me as I feel like a fool trying to impress somebody on how much I can give when I cannot give honest gratitude.

from what you say you are not cut out to be a hindu so prehaps if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to hindu DIR , you should refrain from posting in it .


no spiritual progress will be made by anyone whilst they stand in judgement of others , Only when one has the courage to look at oneself will any progress be made ,

prehaps rather than looking at the practice of others , youshould examine your own at least here if you find fault you may efectively make suitable changes .


I think it is said ..... ''judge not least you be judged ''