Mathew takes Isaiah Chapter 7 way out of context

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Is he the same God of Islam, Baha'i, Hindu etc? In some ways it sounds like the same God being described, in other ways, it is different. The biggest difference for most born-again Christians is the trinity. Is the trinity something that the Hebrews believed in? Some verses make it sound like God is more than one. Other verses make it sound like there is one God and beside him there is no other. The evidence is too vague for me to know for sure. What say you? Jesus is God? The Father is God? And the Holy Spirit is God? And all of them are fighting against an adversary that they created?

Essentially it isn't.

Given the demands and commandments of God in the OT and what we see in the NT, they would appear to be different dieties. I see it as time as if Judaism just sort of shrugs there shoulders with what Islam and Christianity has done.

 

[Fletch]

Is he the same God of Islam, Baha'i, Hindu etc? In some ways it sounds like the same God being described, in other ways, it is different. The biggest difference for most born-again Christians is the trinity. Is the trinity something that the Hebrews believed in? Some verses make it sound like God is more than one. Other verses make it sound like there is one God and beside him there is no other. The evidence is too vague for me to know for sure. What say you? Jesus is God? The Father is God? And the Holy Spirit is God? And all of them are fighting against an adversary that they created?

Hi CG Didymus,

Here is an interesting verse you might not know:

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Fletch

 

[CG Didymus]

Hi CG Didymus,

Here is an interesting verse you might not know:

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Fletch

Two things: This is the Jews walking in the name of their God forever. They define their God very different than most if not all Christians.

Second: That thing about "for ever and ever"? That's implying keeping the Law and the Sabbaths isn't it? Isn't "for ever and ever" still going on? And what do most Christians think and do about the Law and the Sabbath? Not much.

But does this quote really apply to what I was trying to say? Maybe not with Hinduism but with Islam and the Baha'i Faith, they have built themselves on Judaism and Christianity. They are claiming inspiration from the same God. Why don't you believe them? Like I've said many times, probably you'll say that they change things around and take things out of context and by doing so, come up with a completely different religion. Well, that is all I'm saying about Christianity. They took things from Judaism and built something different. It may be right. It may be better, but it still took things out of context from Judaism and changed things around enough to where it is something totally different.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hi CG Didymus,

Here is an interesting verse you might not know:

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Fletch

Hey Fletch, sorry. This is the original post. I hit the wrong key and thought I lost it. It's interesting how the words are different but the intent is similar.

But that is the Jewish God. A Jewish friend gave me a book titled You Take Jesus, We'll Take God. They do see God and describe him different than Christians. Plus, that "for ever and ever" business, how long does it say for the Jews to keep the Sabbath and probably the rest of their Laws? Doesn't it say "forever"? What has Christianity done with the Law and the Sabbath? Fulfilled it? According to Christians, yes, but to Jews? No. Nothing the Messiah was supposed to do has been fulfilled by Jesus. Are they supposed to forget about the "for ever and ever" and trust that Jesus will fulfill the true Messianic prophecies when he comes back?

Christianity has built itself up from Judaism, but so has Islam and the Baha'i Faith and probably some others. Like I've asked before--Why don't you follow either one of those? Probably because you'll say they change what is taught in the NT and have taken things out of context. So how are you different than them? Oh yes, because your beliefs are true and your writings came from God, but theirs aren't and didn't.

 

[Fletch]

But that is the Jewish God. A Jewish friend gave me a book titled You Take Jesus, We'll Take God. They do see God and describe him different than Christians. Plus, that "for ever and ever" business, how long does it say for the Jews to keep the Sabbath and probably the rest of their Laws? Doesn't it say "forever"? What has Christianity done with the Law and the Sabbath? Fulfilled it? According to Christians, yes, but to Jews? No. Nothing the Messiah was supposed to do has been fulfilled by Jesus. Are they supposed to forget about the "for ever and ever" and trust that Jesus will fulfill the true Messianic prophecies when he comes back?

Christianity has built itself up from Judaism, but so has Islam and the Baha'i Faith and probably some others. Like I've asked before--Why don't you follow either one of those? Probably because you'll say they change what is taught in the NT and have taken things out of context. So how are you different than them? Oh yes, because your beliefs are true and your writings came from God, but theirs aren't and didn't.

CG Didymus,

I agree Christianity can not be part that by its very nature. The Arabs however do believe in the God of Abraham, albeit from a different perspective.

I do see Christianity in Isaiah 24 and 28 very much. A religion that big and using the Hebrew Scriptures here a little and there a little to snare people into it can not go unnoticed by prophets who see the future.

Isaiah tells of a world wide false snare religion that has weaned from the milk teachers that have a covenant with death and agreement with the grave that they think will hide them from the wrath to come. I will make a post on that subject when I can find the time. In the meantime please read Isaiah 24 and 28 and see if you can find all the matches.

Fletch

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi CG D, Is GOD the Creator GOD or NOT??
Hi CG D, I realize that Franklin was rather fast with his post, But this post doesn't give your---yes or no?

The CREATOR GOD of the OT is the SAME Creator GOD of the NT. So, what say you?

Is he the same God of Islam, Baha'i, Hindu etc?[//quote]

Hi CG D, That's not an answer to my question.

In some ways it sounds like the same God being described, in other ways, it is different. The biggest difference for most born-again Christians is the trinity. Is the trinity something that the Hebrews believed in? Some verses make it sound like God is more than one. Other verses make it sound like there is one God and beside him there is no other. The evidence is too vague for me to know for sure. What say you? Jesus is God? The Father is God? And the Holy Spirit is God? And all of them are fighting against an adversary that they created?

Neither is the comments above. The only thing close is your: """ The evidence is too vague for me to know for sure.""" However, the first five books of the Scriptures give more than enough "evidence" for one to make that determination/choice of "a Creator GOD".

You are the one who posted this thread and it is predicated on the reality of both the OT and NT Scriptures-----which speak/testify of a GOD.

You have been reading and answering my posts---therefore, I have already given my answer to your questions---so give a straight answer to my question or shall I just acknowledge that your doubting is in reality "GOD doesn't exist"???

Those same Scriptures attest to the validity of all belief systems other than that of the Creator GOD.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by CG Didymus
But that is the Jewish God. A Jewish friend gave me a book titled You Take Jesus, We'll Take God. They do see God and describe him different than Christians. Plus, that "for ever and ever" business, how long does it say for the Jews to keep the Sabbath and probably the rest of their Laws? Doesn't it say "forever"? What has Christianity done with the Law and the Sabbath? Fulfilled it? According to Christians, yes, but to Jews? No. Nothing the Messiah was supposed to do has been fulfilled by Jesus. Are they supposed to forget about the "for ever and ever" and trust that Jesus will fulfill the true Messianic prophecies when he comes back?

Christianity has built itself up from Judaism, but so has Islam and the Baha'i Faith and probably some others. Like I've asked before--Why don't you follow either one of those? Probably because you'll say they change what is taught in the NT and have taken things out of context. So how are you different than them? Oh yes, because your beliefs are true and your writings came from God, but theirs aren't and didn't.

CG Didymus,

I agree Christianity can not be part that by its very nature. The Arabs however do believe in the God of Abraham, albeit from a different perspective.

I do see Christianity in Isaiah 24 and 28 very much. A religion that big and using the Hebrew Scriptures here a little and there a little to snare people into it can not go unnoticed by prophets who see the future.

Hi Fletch, Isaiah wasn't sent to the "Christians", but to Judah and the Jewish Nation who had followed their wicked/evil kings into "whoredom" by worshiping their "gods" instead of the Creator GOD. That nation was prophesied to be taken into captivity and pleaded with to Return in worship the GOD--They didn't. Isa.24 and 28 was addressed to them primarily and to any who rebel against GOD.

Isaiah tells of a world wide false snare religion that has weaned from the milk teachers that have a covenant with death and agreement with the grave that they think will hide them from the wrath to come. I will make a post on that subject when I can find the time. In the meantime please read Isaiah 24 and 28 and see if you can find all the matches.

Fletch

Isaiah 65:1-5 are the one's who sought to escape the wrath of GOD in their rebellion---even to making that covenant with death. They didn't return from Egypt where they sought refuge rather than go into Babylonian captivity as GOD Instructed.

It was Jewish people who were doing this, Isa.58:13, "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:"

Fletch, it was NOT Followers of Christ who were the recipients of that admonition, but the Jewish Nation. The Same worship of Baal by the back-sliding Jewish people was recorded by the prophets as seen in the OT.

 

[CG Didymus]

Originally Posted by sincerly ...shall I just acknowledge that your doubting is in reality "GOD doesn't exist"???

Those same Scriptures attest to the validity of all belief systems other than that of the Creator GOD.

I doubt your definition of who God is and what his plan for us is. How's that for an answer? But, just because I doubt it, doesn't mean it might not be true. I just hope not, because it is leaves off way too many people, too many good and spiritual people from other religions. In fact, it leaves off the Jews? Don't you find that strange? Of course you don't, but I do.

 

[Fletch]

Hi Fletch, Isaiah wasn't sent to the "Christians", but to Judah and the Jewish Nation who had followed their wicked/evil kings into "whoredom" by worshiping their "gods" instead of the Creator GOD. That nation was prophesied to be taken into captivity and pleaded with to Return in worship the GOD--They didn't. Isa.24 and 28 was addressed to them primarily and to any who rebel against GOD.

Hi Sincerely,
I am busy now, but I will make a post ASAP since I am sorry have gone off topic here. BTW, it is very clear it is the ten tribes/house of Israel/Ephriam and not Jews/house of Judah in chapter 28.

Isaiah 65:1-5 are the one's who sought to escape the wrath of GOD in their rebellion---even to making that covenant with death. They didn't return from Egypt where they sought refuge rather than go into Babylonian captivity as GOD Instructed.

It was Jewish people who were doing this, Isa.58:13, "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:"

Per Is 65 & 58, the Jewish people are known for keeping the Sabbath, not eating swine's flesh, not having abominations in a vessel, and not known for be among the graves. Christianity is known for Easter ham, calling Sunday the Sabbath, drinking symbolic blood, and being in the catacombs. Isaiah's new wine religion is not Judaism, indeed the NT calls that old wine.

Fletch, it was NOT Followers of Christ who were the recipients of that admonition, but the Jewish Nation. The Same worship of Baal by the back-sliding Jewish people was recorded by the prophets as seen in the OT.

Judah is not said to ever worship false gods after their 70 year punishment, I have never heard of them en masse worshipping anyone except the Holy One of Israel, and many have tried to break the Jews in history, especially Christianity. Psalms 44 speaks of a scattering and of being very despised along with its parallel in Isaiah 52-53.

Fletch

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Originally Posted by CG Didymus
But that is the Jewish God. A Jewish friend gave me a book titled You Take Jesus, We'll Take God. They do see God and describe him different than Christians. Plus, that "for ever and ever" business, how long does it say for the Jews to keep the Sabbath and probably the rest of their Laws? Doesn't it say "forever"? What has Christianity done with the Law and the Sabbath? Fulfilled it? According to Christians, yes, but to Jews? No. Nothing the Messiah was supposed to do has been fulfilled by Jesus. Are they supposed to forget about the "for ever and ever" and trust that Jesus will fulfill the true Messianic prophecies when he comes back?

Christianity has built itself up from Judaism, but so has Islam and the Baha'i Faith and probably some others. Like I've asked before--Why don't you follow either one of those? Probably because you'll say they change what is taught in the NT and have taken things out of context. So how are you different than them? Oh yes, because your beliefs are true and your writings came from God, but theirs aren't and didn't.



Hi Fletch, Isaiah wasn't sent to the "Christians", but to Judah and the Jewish Nation who had followed their wicked/evil kings into "whoredom" by worshiping their "gods" instead of the Creator GOD. That nation was prophesied to be taken into captivity and pleaded with to Return in worship the GOD--They didn't. Isa.24 and 28 was addressed to them primarily and to any who rebel against GOD.



Isaiah 65:1-5 are the one's who sought to escape the wrath of GOD in their rebellion---even to making that covenant with death. They didn't return from Egypt where they sought refuge rather than go into Babylonian captivity as GOD Instructed.

It was Jewish people who were doing this, Isa.58:13, "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:"

Fletch, it was NOT Followers of Christ who were the recipients of that admonition, but the Jewish Nation. The Same worship of Baal by the back-sliding Jewish people was recorded by the prophets as seen in the OT.

I would suggest you read up on the history of Isreal and Judah, or just the history of hte area in general. Not that you'd believe it, but still....

 

[sincerly]

I would suggest you read up on the history of Isreal and Judah, or just the history of hte area in general. Not that you'd believe it, but still....

Hi FM, I have read the history as seen in the Samuel, Kings and Chronicles and the individual prophets----not a very pretty sight and the people were lead into either partial obedience or disobedience by the various kings.
Amazing how the Love and Guidance of the Creator GOD could be rebelled against time after time and GOD not totally cast them off. But then again, GOD Said it would be by the descendants of Abraham that all the peoples of the earth would have Salvation.
It is to bad that there is still rebellion in most of those descendants to GOD'S designated means of Salvation.
The Creator GOD never was, nor will be, a "respecter of persons". Isa.56:7, "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."
ALL peoples are from Adam and Eve.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly ...shall I just acknowledge that your doubting is in reality "GOD doesn't exist"???

Those same Scriptures attest to the validity of all belief systems other than that of the Creator GOD.

I doubt your definition of who God is and what his plan for us is. How's that for an answer? But, just because I doubt it, doesn't mean it might not be true. I just hope not, because it is leaves off way too many people, too many good and spiritual people from other religions. In fact, it leaves off the Jews? Don't you find that strange? Of course you don't, but I do.

Hi CG D, just more circumventing the question.
It "leaves off" no one . All are a witness to their own choices. Your "I doubt it" is as stated above.
Rom.10; and 11:23 clearly shows that, individually, all(Jews and Gentiles) who repent of their "disbelief" and abide in HIS WILL are accepted (again).

 

[sincerly]

Hi CG Didymus,

Here is an interesting verse you might not know:

Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Fletch

Hi Fletch, When one places that in proper context one sees that those from "the nations" has chosen to walk in the ways of the Creator GOD and that will be "in the last days" and will be as Isa.66:22-23 states.

"His god" will be THE GOD.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Hi FM, I have read the history as seen in the Samuel, Kings and Chronicles and the individual prophets----not a very pretty sight and the people were lead into either partial obedience or disobedience by the various kings.
Amazing how the Love and Guidance of the Creator GOD could be rebelled against time after time and GOD not totally cast them off. But then again, GOD Said it would be by the descendants of Abraham that all the peoples of the earth would have Salvation.
It is to bad that there is still rebellion in most of those descendants to GOD'S designated means of Salvation.
The Creator GOD never was, nor will be, a "respecter of persons". Isa.56:7, "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."
ALL peoples are from Adam and Eve.

Lol I don't mean the history written in the books but the history being uncovered now as we learn more. And no it's literally impossible for two humans on earth to bring about the genetic diversity needed to sustain a population. It is even more impossible due to the shear amount of incest that would have to go on.

 

[sincerly]

Lol I don't mean the history written in the books but the history being uncovered now as we learn more. And no it's literally impossible for two humans on earth to bring about the genetic diversity needed to sustain a population. It is even more impossible due to the shear amount of incest that would have to go on.

Now you are speaking of the writings of men who were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, but were expressing the opinions of men. Many of those do not agree with the Scriptures given to mankind to live in harmony with GOD and Neighbor.

By genetic diversity, You reject even the knowledge which Jacob understood those many centuries ago.
With the Scriptures, they say you do not acknowledge the power of GOD to do the supposed impossible of man.

FM, that was Eve's problem---Not believing GOD.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Now you are speaking of the writings of men who were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, but were expressing the opinions of men. Many of those do not agree with the Scriptures given to mankind to live in harmony with GOD and Neighbor.

By genetic diversity, You reject even the knowledge which Jacob understood those many centuries ago.
With the Scriptures, they say you do not acknowledge the power of GOD to do the supposed impossible of man.

FM, that was Eve's problem---Not believing GOD.

Let me ask you a question, how exactly do you know those men were touched by the Holy Spirit? Was it revealed to you by God, or was it told to you by those men?

Was at any point was any of these revelations personal delivered to you? Or are you simply reciting what others have told you?

 

[sincerly]

Let me ask you a question, how exactly do you know those men were touched by the Holy Spirit? Was it revealed to you by God, or was it told to you by those men?

Was at any point was any of these revelations personal delivered to you? Or are you simply reciting what others have told you?

Hi FM, "Personally"?? No and Yes. No, GOD hasn't felt the need to contact me "personally", but I fully believe that HE could do so.
When Aaron and Miriam sought to challenge Moses's authority(Num.12), GOD said HE would make the prophets. They were the one's who were sent to the Back-sliding Israelites for centuries(off and on as needed). AND THEIR MESSAGES WERE TRUE.

Yes, the Scriptural messages given by the Prophets are directed to "all" personally and are valid today in the same principles as they were in those "yesterday years".

Each of those prophets are a witness for the Creator GOD and as such-- "two or three witnesses establish" the thing witnessed. (Deut.17:6; Num.35:30)
Lying is punishable by death. False witnesses are prevalent as they do not fear GOD. (done for the greater good---in their opinion. But it will reap death in the "end".)

Isa.8:20, has this standard for truth, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. " and Ahaz was seeking protection and peace from Assyria rather than GOD.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Yes, I'll listen to those prophets of old who speak/tell the same loving principles of GOD rather than some "new" information which is contrary to the teachings of GOD.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Hi FM, "Personally"?? No and Yes. No, GOD hasn't felt the need to contact me "personally", but I fully believe that HE could do so.
When Aaron and Miriam sought to challenge Moses's authority(Num.12), GOD said HE would make the prophets. They were the one's who were sent to the Back-sliding Israelites for centuries(off and on as needed). AND THEIR MESSAGES WERE TRUE.

Yes, the Scriptural messages given by the Prophets are directed to "all" personally and are valid today in the same principles as they were in those "yesterday years".

Each of those prophets are a witness for the Creator GOD and as such-- "two or three witnesses establish" the thing witnessed. (Deut.17:6; Num.35:30)
Lying is punishable by death. False witnesses are prevalent as they do not fear GOD. (done for the greater good---in their opinion. But it will reap death in the "end".)

Isa.8:20, has this standard for truth, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. " and Ahaz was seeking protection and peace from Assyria rather than GOD.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Yes, I'll listen to those prophets of old who speak/tell the same loving principles of GOD rather than some "new" information which is contrary to the teachings of GOD.

How was their message true?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi FM, "Personally"?? No and Yes. No, GOD hasn't felt the need to contact me "personally", but I fully believe that HE could do so.
When Aaron and Miriam sought to challenge Moses's authority(Num.12), GOD said HE would make the prophets. They were the one's who were sent to the Back-sliding Israelites for centuries(off and on as needed). AND THEIR MESSAGES WERE TRUE.

How was their message true?

In Moses charge to the Israelites before they entered into the promised land this was his(Moses) message to those who would cross over to possess it. (Deut.28:58-68)
"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;...(63)And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see..."

FM, the solution is in the humbling of heart and Returning to LORD GOD in Repentance and submission.
Scripturally, an arrogant/defiant tenacity for the "old wine" is contrary to the Scriptures----which will continue to be the "standard" no matter how many times redaction occurs by man.
That carrying away to Babylon is as Isaiah was preaching/instructing Judah concerning.

 

[CG Didymus]

...I'll listen to those prophets of old who speak/tell the same loving principles of GOD rather than some "new" information which is contrary to the teachings of GOD.

If you were a first century Jew, abiding by the Law and keeping the Sabbath, what would you say to a man who told you that you no longer had to follow the Law? All you needed was to believe and be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and get your sins forgiven. That's pretty radical "new" information. Since your Scriptures would tell you the Law is forever and for all your generations.

Now let's move ahead a few hundred years, you're still a Jew, and "Christians" were telling you to believe in Jesus, Mary, the Pope and confess your sins to a priest. Would you, should you, follow this "new" information that is supposedly from God?

It's easy for Protestants to say now what the "truth" is. And, to stop all "revelation" with their "new" revelation that Jesus saves, non-believing sinners are going to hell etc. 500 years ago, that was "new" information. Should a Jew and a Catholic at that time just stop following their beliefs and listen to the Protestants? Should they have followed Luther or Calvin or some of the others? There was some variation in what they were preaching as "truth."

The Bible and the Christian NT has quite a bit of ambiguity in it. Somebody has to think about what it means and how it all comes together. Your way is one of them. What do we do with the others? Check them out against the Word? What if it's yours we don't believe matches? Maybe we notice things were taken out of context for instance.