Maybe I don't want to be a Christian any more

[blackout]

I just hate it when a christian type discussion is going on
that I have my own positive personal connections and insights about
and I cannot post because I'm not "christian" the way other people say you're supposed to be.

There IS no definitively "correct" way to be a christian.
It's all open to interpretation.
Yet my interpretations never seem to count for anything.

 

[Katzpur]

Kidding aside, I think it's a shame when a group of people who believe in the same saviour cannot recognize each other to be Christian regardless of denomination.

Yes, it is a shame, but the problem seems to be that there is this whole enormous issue of whose Savior is the real Savior. It's just not something I feel that the "real Savior" would want to see us arguing about.

A few years back, the LDS Church and the Catholic Church in my neighborhood decided to have a joint service. It was neither an LDS Sacrament Meeting nor a Catholic Mass. It was just a service where one Latter-day Saint and one Catholic were honored for the work they had performed in the community. That part of the service was followed by a choir comprised of both Mormons and Catholics. They sang both LDS and Catholic hymns. The invocation was offered by a Catholic and the Benediction was offered by a Mormon. The event was even held in both Churches. We all started out at the LDS Church and then walked together to the Catholic Church. It was nighttime, and teenage boys from both Churches lined the road between the two churches, shining flashlights to light the way as we walked. As I sat there listening to the music, I almost started to cry. I just couldn't help but think, "This is what God wants! He must be so happy right now, looking down on a group of people who see Him differently but love Him equally. And we're all getting along!"

I enjoy debating with people whose beliefs are not the same as mine, and I am always happy when I feel as if I've presented a good defense for my position. On the other hand, I just don't understand the need some people have to just go looking for a fight, and to do everything they can to prove how misguided the other guy is. Debating is one thing; arguing is something different, and I'm sick to death of it right now. It is not what my God wants and whether He's the right God or the wrong one, I think He is just plain disgusted with a whole bunch of His "Christian" children.

 

[uu_sage]

[FONT=&quot]Katzpur, I feel your pain. My Christianity is questioned by those who are more theologically orthodox. I am a Universalist affirming God is love, and is our loving parent bringing ALL SOULS Christian or not to salvation, and I am Unitarian affirming the strict unity of God and Jesus is a prophet. They slander me with such names and titles as "heretic", "backslider" and even "anti-Christ". Even as they slander me I remind myself that they too are the beloved children of God and will do everything I can to embody God's radical grace and inclusive love in the spirit of Jesus. I engage them in dialogue and telling them what I believe and why I believe it. Most of the time, I am able to get favorable reception even though some may still disagree with me. I am one of many who are bearing witness to an inclusive, liberal, justice-centered Christianity and showing them that Christianity is not the sole possession of Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]We must stay strong; we must not give into hopelessness or despair. I am proud to be Christian, and will not let anybody deny me the right to worship God, and follow Jesus in freedom.[/FONT]

 

[Katzpur]

[FONT=&quot]Katzpur, I feel your pain. My Christianity is questioned by those who are more theologically orthodox. I am a Universalist affirming God is love, and is our loving parent bringing ALL SOULS Christian or not to salvation, and I am Unitarian affirming the strict unity of God and Jesus is a prophet. They slander me with such names and titles as "heretic", "backslider" and even "anti-Christ". Even as they slander me I remind myself that they too are the beloved children of God and will do everything I can to embody God's radical grace and inclusive love in the spirit of Jesus. I engage them in dialogue and telling them what I believe and why I believe it. Most of the time, I am able to get favorable reception even though some may still disagree with me. I am one of many who are bearing witness to an inclusive, liberal, justice-centered Christianity and showing them that Christianity is not the sole possession of Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]We must stay strong; we must not give into hopelessness or despair. I am proud to be Christian, and will not let anybody deny me the right to worship God, and follow Jesus in freedom.[/FONT]

That was beautiful! Thank you.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

The older -- and wiser -- I get, and the more I hang out on RF, the more convinced I am that I don't really care whether I'm known as a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, more and more all the time, I'm starting to want to distance myself from people who call themselves "Christians." I'm beginning to understand why non-Christians are so turned off by Christians and by the doctrines they profess. It has taken me a long time to admit this. No one who truly believes in Jesus Christ and worships Him as his Savior and Redeemer wants to be told that He isn't a Christian. That's why we Latter-day Saints get so defensive when we're accused of not being Christians. If we say, "You're wrong. We are Christians," we are forced to defend ourselves against slanderous remarks. If we say, "You're right. We're not Christians," it's as if we have denied everything we stand for.

But who are we really denying it to? I don't need to fall into a man-made category of some kind in order for Jesus Christ to recognize me as His follower. I am just about ready to simply back off and stop trying to be accepted into the club. I don't want to be thought of as a Christian when most of the people who call themselves Christians are so unpleasant and judgmental. I don't want to be associated with them in any way. I'm a Latter-day Saint. I'm a Mormon. I love my Savior with all my heart and believe that when I stand before Him, He will welcome me with open arms, along with my brothers and sisters of all religious (and non-religious) persuasions. Don't even bother referring to me as a Christian (real or fake) any more because I want nothing to do with the Christianity I see all around me.

The only thing that matters is that you are true to yourself.

 

[Katzpur]

The only thing that matters is that you are true to yourself.

Thank you. I've always said that the virtue I value most in life is integrity. That's the one I strive most for. I can't say that I always measure up, but I do believe it's important.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Actually, I am no where near as annoyed with constantly being told I am not a Christian as I am annoyed with constantly being told I am "delusional" for being religious. I stopped caring if other people considered me a Christian or not a while ago.

You forgot superstitious too.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Actually, I am no where near as annoyed with constantly being told I am not a Christian as I am annoyed with constantly being told I am "delusional" for being religious. I stopped caring if other people considered me a Christian or not a while ago.

That is annoying, isn't it? But all those threads I don't usually respond in. And when I do look through them, most of the people participating are atheists, anyway.
If they want to think of us as delusional, that is their prerogative. But I am still a bit annoyed, as I said.

This is a bit of a side-topic, but may I respond?

I can't speak for other atheists. But I have called belief in God a mass delusion before on this forum. This is a claim put forward in the spirit of evaluating the merits of the claim, and having a discussion as adults. It is not meant as a put-down. It is not, I can say very honestly and sincerely, intended to elevate myself in some way, as if I am superior because I am the only non-deluded person in the world. Quite the opposite. It would be more like if we were hiking in the woods, and I pointed out that I thought I saw a tick on your back. Maybe I am mistaken, but I still think it's helpful to you to tell you what I *think* I see. And I am sure that in all likelihood, there are ticks on me as well. And I hope you will point out to me any ticks you think you see.

I believed in God. I have very close friends and family who believe in God. It should go without saying that this is not the sort of delusion that an insane person has. It is popular delusion, and we know all of us succumb to such delusions one way or another. There are some people who accept that belief in God is a sort of delusion, but they say that not all delusions are bad. Studies have shown, in fact, that we all need to have somewhat unrealistic views of ourselves, and our own worth, in order to be happy. So clearly some delusions are okay.

That's the spirit in which I say such things, or at least it's the spirit I try to maintain, anyway.

 

[painted wolf]

"by their actions you shall know them" Or words to that effect... not "by their title shall you know them".
Those who obsess over who is "true" and who isn't miss the point and their own lack of humility.

*then again I've heard "there not a 'true Mormon'" uttered more than once. Terms like 'Jack Mormon' spring to mind.*

wa:do

*edit: I just realized I should clarify that I hear similar things from all faiths... bad apples in every bunch.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

This is a bit of a side-topic, but may I respond?

I can't speak for other atheists. But I have called belief in God a mass delusion before on this forum. This is a claim put forward in the spirit of evaluating the merits of the claim, and having a discussion as adults. It is not meant as a put-down. It is not, I can say very honestly and sincerely, intended to elevate myself in some way, as if I am superior because I am the only non-deluded person in the world. Quite the opposite. It would be more like if we were hiking in the woods, and I pointed out that I thought I saw a tick on your back. Maybe I am mistaken, but I still think it's helpful to you to tell you what I *think* I see. And I am sure that in all likelihood, there are ticks on me as well. And I hope you will point out to me any ticks you think you see.

I believed in God. I have very close friends and family who believe in God. It should go without saying that this is not the sort of delusion that an insane person has. It is popular delusion, and we know all of us succumb to such delusions one way or another. There are some people who accept that belief in God is a sort of delusion, but they say that not all delusions are bad. Studies have shown, in fact, that we all need to have somewhat unrealistic views of ourselves, and our own worth, in order to be happy. So clearly some delusions are okay.

That's the spirit in which I say such things, or at least it's the spirit I try to maintain, anyway.

But the word does not come across like that in which case I would try to choose another way to express it if you don't mean it to be degrading.

 

[Apex]

This is a bit of a side-topic, but may I respond?

I can't speak for other atheists. But I have called belief in God a mass delusion before on this forum. This is a claim put forward in the spirit of evaluating the merits of the claim, and having a discussion as adults. It is not meant as a put-down. It is not, I can say very honestly and sincerely, intended to elevate myself in some way, as if I am superior because I am the only non-deluded person in the world. Quite the opposite. It would be more like if we were hiking in the woods, and I pointed out that I thought I saw a tick on your back. Maybe I am mistaken, but I still think it's helpful to you to tell you what I *think* I see. And I am sure that in all likelihood, there are ticks on me as well. And I hope you will point out to me any ticks you think you see.

I believed in God. I have very close friends and family who believe in God. It should go without saying that this is not the sort of delusion that an insane person has. It is popular delusion, and we know all of us succumb to such delusions one way or another. There are some people who accept that belief in God is a sort of delusion, but they say that not all delusions are bad. Studies have shown, in fact, that we all need to have somewhat unrealistic views of ourselves, and our own worth, in order to be happy. So clearly some delusions are okay.

That's the spirit in which I say such things, or at least it's the spirit I try to maintain, anyway.

I was talking about the non-theist posters who have no notion of respectful debate towards those of differing belief. You are one of the few who does not fall into that category.

 

[Katzpur]

*then again I've heard "there not a 'true Mormon'" uttered more than once. Terms like 'Jack Mormon' spring to mind.*

Seriously, I've never heard a Mormon refer to another Mormon as not being a "true Mormon." The term "Jack Mormon" is generally applied to individuals who were baptized into the faith but no longer practice it. I would say that almost anyone that a Mormon would refer to as a "Jack Mormon" would use the same term to describe himself.

 

[Buttercup]

Thank you. I've always said that the virtue I value most in life is integrity. That's the one I strive most for. I can't say that I always measure up, but I do believe it's important.

Kathryn I have to say in all sincerity (no chimpy shenanigans) that because of you and a few other LDS on RF, I have a very high opinion of Mormons...much higher than the general Christian population. You exemplify your faith very well. Keep up the good work.

 

[painted wolf]

Seriously, I've never heard a Mormon refer to another Mormon as not being a "true Mormon." The term "Jack Mormon" is generally applied to individuals who were baptized into the faith but no longer practice it. I would say that almost anyone that a Mormon would refer to as a "Jack Mormon" would use the same term to describe himself.

I'm glad you've never heard it... unfortunately I did quite a bit while I was a Mormon. I even had people tell me I wasn't a "true Mormon" when I was a child and long before I ever considered questioning my faith... Often over trivial things, like what shows I watched.

wa:do

 

[Rakhel]

I've never heard of "Jack Mormon" So is there a "Jackie Mormon" too?
Anyways, I do sympathize Katz. I, myself, get annoyed when Mormons are called non-Christians. I have had to agrue that point many times.

 

[Katzpur]

Kathryn I have to say in all sincerity (no chimpy shenanigans) that because of you and a few other LDS on RF, I have a very high opinion of Mormons...much higher than the general Christian population. You exemplify your faith very well. Keep up the good work.

Aw, shucks. Thank you, Rhonda.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm glad you've never heard it... unfortunately I did quite a bit while I was a Mormon. I even had people tell me I wasn't a "true Mormon" when I was a child and long before I ever considered questioning my faith... Often over trivial things, like what shows I watched.

Okay, I seriously haven't heard any of my fellow Mormons use the term "true Mormon" but I have heard the term "good Mormon" which is every bit as judgmental. That's a term I've heard applied to myself (by a certain unnamed LDS RFer, for one). It basically is used by Mormons who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they have to resort to looking for ways in which they believe other Mormons don't measure up. I could go on and on about this type of Mormon, but I won't. We all know there are these kinds of people in all religions.

 

[Katzpur]

I've never heard of "Jack Mormon" So is there a "Jackie Mormon" too?

I suspect it's used more in Utah than elsewhere. No "Jackie Mormons" though. Just "Jacks."

Anyways, I do sympathize Katz. I, myself, get annoyed when Mormons are called non-Christians. I have had to agrue that point many times.

That's nice of you to stand up for us, rakhel. It's much appreciated, and I will remember that you do.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Katzpur,

Maybe I don't want to be a Christian any more

Just a change in the gestalt;
The enquiry should start from "Who is this *I* that wants to be anything?
When one knows that, then whatever the individual does becomes a religion by itself.
Love & rgds

 

[challupa]

Yes, it is a shame, but the problem seems to be that there is this whole enormous issue of whose Savior is the real Savior. It's just not something I feel that the "real Savior" would want to see us arguing about.

A few years back, the LDS Church and the Catholic Church in my neighborhood decided to have a joint service. It was neither an LDS Sacrament Meeting nor a Catholic Mass. It was just a service where one Latter-day Saint and one Catholic were honored for the work they had performed in the community. That part of the service was followed by a choir comprised of both Mormons and Catholics. They sang both LDS and Catholic hymns. The invocation was offered by a Catholic and the Benediction was offered by a Mormon. The event was even held in both Churches. We all started out at the LDS Church and then walked together to the Catholic Church. It was nighttime, and teenage boys from both Churches lined the road between the two churches, shining flashlights to light the way as we walked. As I sat there listening to the music, I almost started to cry. I just couldn't help but think, "This is what God wants! He must be so happy right now, looking down on a group of people who see Him differently but love Him equally. And we're all getting along!"

I enjoy debating with people whose beliefs are not the same as mine, and I am always happy when I feel as if I've presented a good defense for my position. On the other hand, I just don't understand the need some people have to just go looking for a fight, and to do everything they can to prove how misguided the other guy is. Debating is one thing; arguing is something different, and I'm sick to death of it right now. It is not what my God wants and whether He's the right God or the wrong one, I think He is just plain disgusted with a whole bunch of His "Christian" children.

I think that great that the two churches could come together like that. Not all of them can do that.

I agree if there is a God, he sure wouldn't want us all fighting over who is right. He would want us to be serving each other, treating each other right, helping, comforting and holding each other. As a person who doesn't know if there is a God or not, I still think these are the things humans should be doing. We should be taking care of each other and holding life as precious. It's not really just the criteria for Christians or religions in general, it should be a human criteria.