Maybe I don't want to be a Christian any more

[painted wolf]

Okay, I seriously haven't heard any of my fellow Mormons use the term "true Mormon" but I have heard the term "good Mormon" which is every bit as judgmental. That's a term I've heard applied to myself (by a certain unnamed LDS RFer, for one). It basically is used by Mormons who are so insecure in their own beliefs that they have to resort to looking for ways in which they believe other Mormons don't measure up. I could go on and on about this type of Mormon, but I won't. We all know there are these kinds of people in all religions.

My point exactly...
I personally think it stems from an insecurity about ones own worth... and the need to put others down to lift themselves up to feed a needy ego.

wa:do

 

[Smoke]

With the possible exception of Buddhist, is their any religion/non-religion that doesn’t generate an immediate negative connotation in a large audience?

I respect the Jains, though I wouldn't want to be one.

 

[Rakhel]

That's nice of you to stand up for us, rakhel. It's much appreciated, and I will remember that you do.

But then again, I get a lot of flack for calling Catholics Christians too. It's even worse when I say that protestants are a splinter group of the Catholics. LOL can't win, huh. You see, I was always under the impression that if you believed in "The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit" you were of the Christian persuasion.

 

[Katzpur]

But then again, I get a lot of flack for calling Catholics Christians too. It's even worse when I say that protestants are a splinter group of the Catholics. LOL can't win, huh. You see, I was always under the impression that if you believed in "The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit" you were of the Christian persuasion.

Yeah, but see we believe in the wrong Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

 

[Willamena]

Not wrong --other.

 

[Rakhel]

Yeah, but see we believe in the wrong Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Yeah. Right. Okay.

 

[Katzpur]

Not wrong --other.

Actually, I believe "wrong" was the word that is most often used. You know what? Who cares?

 

[cardero]

Katzpur writes: The older -- and wiser -- I get, and the more I hang out on RF, the more convinced I am that I don't really care whether I'm known as a Christian or not.

With me, it never really mattered what moniker RF members promoted. When I approach them, it is one entity encountering another entity. Someone who claims themselves as Christian, Mormon, Protestant, Born Again, Muslim, Jewish, Scientologist, Atheist, Amish, Jehovah’s Witness has no discernable advantage over anyone else in discussing, reasoning or concluding beliefs.

 

[LuisDantas]

But who are we really denying it to? I don't need to fall into a man-made category of some kind in order for Jesus Christ to recognize me as His follower. I am just about ready to simply back off and stop trying to be accepted into the club. I don't want to be thought of as a Christian when most of the people who call themselves Christians are so unpleasant and judgmental.

It almost immediately becomes a futile effort to obtain a kind of approval that is not even _desirable_ to begin with, doesn't it?

Congratulations for your wisdom. It is refreshing.

And frubals.

 

[ProudMuslim]

I totally understand you and i think you will find many people, including from other faiths, who experience the same.

But my question to you Katzpur, imagine everyone like you has decided to stop defending the title of their beliefs and just gave up, what will happen? I think they will be totally left to the loonies and hijacked by them for the generations to come. We are doing no good to our identities when we left them getting tainted and dont do a thing to rectify the situation.

I really understand and i do sometimes feel hopless at how some Muslims present their ideas, behave and talk. But i never thought of giving up to them.

 

[LuisDantas]

But my question to you Katzpur, imagine everyone like you has decided to stop defending the title of their beliefs and just gave up, what will happen? I think they will be totally left to the loonies and hijacked by them for the generations to come.

I don´t think so. Titles are just titles. It takes far less than a generation for "loonies" to lose interest in them when there is no conflict to keep them interested.

We are doing no good to our identities when we left them getting tainted and dont do a thing to rectify the situation.

Maybe that is not a problem. A identity that puts too much value on the simple word "Christianity" and too little on actual deeds and choices is probably misgrounded and ought to be reviewed, anyway.

I really understand and i do sometimes feel hopeless at how some Muslims present their ideas, behave and talk. But i never thought of giving up to them.

Not saying that's the case here (it may very well not be), but all too often it is the very determination of not giving up that keeps conflicts going. Sometimes giving up ends the conflict and makes one realize how pointless it was to begin with.

 

[PureX]

The older -- and wiser -- I get, and the more I hang out on RF, the more convinced I am that I don't really care whether I'm known as a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, more and more all the time, I'm starting to want to distance myself from people who call themselves "Christians." I'm beginning to understand why non-Christians are so turned off by Christians and by the doctrines they profess. It has taken me a long time to admit this. No one who truly believes in Jesus Christ and worships Him as his Savior and Redeemer wants to be told that He isn't a Christian. That's why we Latter-day Saints get so defensive when we're accused of not being Christians. If we say, "You're wrong. We are Christians," we are forced to defend ourselves against slanderous remarks. If we say, "You're right. We're not Christians," it's as if we have denied everything we stand for.

But who are we really denying it to? I don't need to fall into a man-made category of some kind in order for Jesus Christ to recognize me as His follower. I am just about ready to simply back off and stop trying to be accepted into the club. I don't want to be thought of as a Christian when most of the people who call themselves Christians are so unpleasant and judgmental. I don't want to be associated with them in any way. I'm a Latter-day Saint. I'm a Mormon. I love my Savior with all my heart and believe that when I stand before Him, He will welcome me with open arms, along with my brothers and sisters of all religious (and non-religious) persuasions. Don't even bother referring to me as a Christian (real or fake) any more because I want nothing to do with the Christianity I see all around me.

"Christ" is God's (logos) made flesh. Christ is not a man, but a state of being. It is the state of being a human expression of God's mind and heart: love and forgiveness, here on Earth. If you believe that with practice, you can at last sometimes achieve this state, and that you can help heal yourself and others spiritually as a result of expressing God's love and forgiveness to yourself and through yourself to others, then you are a "Christian". The religious dogma and traditions may be helpful to you, or it may not be helpful. That's up to each of us as individuals to decide. Take the religion or leave it as you see fit. Either way the religion does not define the Christian. God's love made flesh, healing and saving us from ourselves defines a Christian.

 

[Katzpur]

But my question to you Katzpur, imagine everyone like you has decided to stop defending the title of their beliefs and just gave up, what will happen?

I will never stop defending my beliefs. They define who I am. I'm just saying that to identify myself as a Christian (at least in the context of forums such as this) is to immediately suggest to every non-Christian on the forum that I am the same kind of person as the ones who are constantly trying to tell me I am undeserving of the title they are so gung-ho to claim for themselves. I can and will always continue to tell people that I believe in Jesus Christ, that I believe He was the Son of God and is my Savior. That doesn't seem to cause the same reaction as my saying I'm a Christian does. I simply don't want to be what comes to most people's minds when someone says, "I'm a Christian." I don't want to be associated with that stereotype.

 

[Kathryn]

I think this is a very sad OP, from a lot of different perspectives. Katzpur, I am sorry that your life experiences have brought you to this belief.

 

[ProudMuslim]

I will never stop defending my beliefs. They define who I am. I'm just saying that to identify myself as a Christian (at least in the context of forums such as this) is to immediately suggest to every non-Christian on the forum that I am the same kind of person as the ones who are constantly trying to tell me I am undeserving of the title they are so gung-ho to claim for themselves. I can and will always continue to tell people that I believe in Jesus Christ, that I believe He was the Son of God and is my Savior. That doesn't seem to cause the same reaction as my saying I'm a Christian does. I simply don't want to be what comes to most people's minds when someone says, "I'm a Christian." I don't want to be associated with that stereotype.

Well all i can say is that i totally understand your frustration.

 

[Katzpur]

I think this is a very sad OP, from a lot of different perspectives. Katzpur, I am sorry that your life experiences have brought you to this belief.

I hope you understand, Kathryn, that I wasn't saying I am through believing in Jesus Christ or recognizing that He is the way by which I believe I can be reconciled to God. That could not be further from the truth. I'm just through trying to fight for the right to wear the label when the label itself has such negative connotations to so many decent people.

 

[challupa]

I hope you understand, Kathryn, that I wasn't saying I am through believing in Jesus Christ or recognizing that He is the way by which I believe I can be reconciled to God. That could not be further from the truth. I'm just through trying to fight for the right to wear the label when the label itself has such negative connotations to so many decent people.

I really agree with this. It is the labels we put on ourselves and each other that keep us divided imo. If we saw less labelling we likely would be more accepting of each other because we wouldn't have those barriers. An example of how far labels can go to create division, is a story of a Lutherun pastor, Rev. David Benke who took part in a ceremony at Yankee Stadium. It was a blessing he joined with others in the religious community and civic leaders that were trying to comfort the US after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. He joined others in a prayer. He thought it was his duty as a pastor, but he had six pastors from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod file formal charges against him asking for his expulsion from the church. He apparently "participated in idolatry by participating with non-Christians". They also accused him of "syncretism" which means promoting the view that all religions are equal. By standing with others of different faiths, he endorsed these faiths and gave the impression that all offer an equal path to salvation. This is a big no-no.

Lutherans say that they must not pray in public with anyone from another faith, EVEN Lutherans of other denominations!! They believe in worshiping only with those who interpret the Scriptures and understand God in precisely the same way they do. Here is a link to some of the articles:
RDN Article: Controversy Over Participation in Interfaith Service

That is why it seems in order to create more harmony on earth we need to relax our need to allow labels to divide us.

 

[Katzpur]

That is so sad, Challupa. I know that Christians have left interfaith gatherings where Mormons were asked to participate, but that just blows me away. I wouldn't have expected such behavior within Lutheranism itself.

 

[challupa]

That is so sad, Challupa. I know that Christians have left interfaith gatherings where Mormons were asked to participate, but that just blows me away. I wouldn't have expected such behavior within Lutheranism itself.

Yes it shocked many people, the pastor involved was shocked too. I thought it was the worst example of just how serious we are about protecting "our truths". If they could not allow someone to comfort during such a painful time, how is that about love and caring for humanity, which they are supposed to believe are all creations of God.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

The older -- and wiser -- I get, and the more I hang out on RF, the more convinced I am that I don't really care whether I'm known as a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, more and more all the time, I'm starting to want to distance myself from people who call themselves "Christians." I'm beginning to understand why non-Christians are so turned off by Christians and by the doctrines they profess. It has taken me a long time to admit this. No one who truly believes in Jesus Christ and worships Him as his Savior and Redeemer wants to be told that He isn't a Christian. That's why we Latter-day Saints get so defensive when we're accused of not being Christians. If we say, "You're wrong. We are Christians," we are forced to defend ourselves against slanderous remarks. If we say, "You're right. We're not Christians," it's as if we have denied everything we stand for.

But who are we really denying it to? I don't need to fall into a man-made category of some kind in order for Jesus Christ to recognize me as His follower. I am just about ready to simply back off and stop trying to be accepted into the club. I don't want to be thought of as a Christian when most of the people who call themselves Christians are so unpleasant and judgmental. I don't want to be associated with them in any way. I'm a Latter-day Saint. I'm a Mormon. I love my Savior with all my heart and believe that when I stand before Him, He will welcome me with open arms, along with my brothers and sisters of all religious (and non-religious) persuasions. Don't even bother referring to me as a Christian (real or fake) any more because I want nothing to do with the Christianity I see all around me.

Regardless of being a Protestant Christian, Orthodox Christian, Catholic Christian, or Mormon Christian... it is impossible to believe in an effectual and enduring way apart from being born from above. This is what Jesus clearly taught (John 3:3) There are so many professing Christians who are still in the flesh and are not converted to God. I am not implying that I could know your status before God, but there are many who claim to know Christ but do not. They all eventually fall away from the Faith. A true conversion is a divine act of God alone. The Biblical Christ and His disciples never conformed to this world because Jesus is not from this world. I think your first line on your OP tells the story since your wisdom is from RF. Of course this posting is just my opinion.

Now I would remind you, brothers,of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. - 1 Cor 15

Passage: Matthew 13 (ESV Bible Online)

Please listen to the words of the Biblical Jesus:

Not Peace, but a Sword

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. - Jesus

Do Not Love the World

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. - John