Maybe NATO should back down?

[Revoltingest]

I can understand what NATO wants. Just like they want Russian troops out of Ukraine, Russia wants NATO out of Ukraine. I do not know what will finally happen. But I see Ukraine is paying high price for what NATO and Russia want.

NATO isn't the one doing the wanting here.
We have Ukraine wanting independence, & perhaps
membership in NATO. We have Russia wanting Ukraine.
Russia is handling its desire poorly...highly immorally.

 

[fantome profane]

I can understand what NATO wants. Just like they want Russian troops out of Ukraine, Russia wants NATO out of Ukraine. I do not know what will finally happen. But I see Ukraine is paying high price for what NATO and Russia want.

What do you think Ukraine wants?

Or does that just not matter?

 

[Aupmanyav]

What do you think Ukraine wants? Or does that just not matter?

What Ukraine wants does matter, but wants are not horses that one can ride. What one wants should be moderated by the extent it is possible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I can understand what NATO wants. Just like they want Russian troops out of Ukraine, Russia wants NATO out of Ukraine. I do not know what will finally happen. But I see Ukraine is paying high price for what NATO and Russia want.

How absurd !
Putin is raging a war, and not NATO. It is an idealistic war, that does not care who "gets in the way".

I'm all for reform, but not by military force against your neighbours.
Would Ukraine have attacked Russia? Obviously not.

I'm sick of bullies.

 

[fantome profane]

What one wants should be moderated by the extent it is possible.

Tell that to Putin. He is not going to get Ukraine.

 

[Martin]

What Ukraine wants does matter, but wants are not horses that one can ride. What one wants should be moderated by the extent it is possible.

Wanting your country not to be bombed and invaded by a soviet dictator seems entirely reasonable to me.

 

[Martin]

How absurd !
Putin is raging a war, and not NATO. It is an idealistic war, that does not care who "gets in the way".

I'm all for reform, but not by military force against your neighbours.
Would Ukraine have attacked Russia? Obviously not.

I'm sick of bullies.

Yes, and Vlad the Invader needs a good slapping.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is .. war, that does not care who "gets in the way".

True.

Tell that to Putin. He is not going to get Ukraine.

As I said I am no prophet. I do not think Putin will want a war-ravaged Ukraine, but to rebuild Ukraine will be a long difficult process for Ukrainians. Russia will not leave a few regions.

Wanting your country not to be bombed and invaded by a soviet dictator seems entirely reasonable to me.

No, it is not. But Zelenskyy did not visualize this scenario. That is why I blame him.

Yes, and Vlad the Invader needs a good slapping.

Vlad is ready for all eventualities.

 

[fantome profane]

No, it is not. But Zelenskyy did not visualize this scenario.

Why would you think that? I think it is pretty obvious that Zelensky was envisioning just this scenario and doing everything he could to prepare for it from the moment he took office.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why would you think that? I think it is pretty obvious that Zelenskyy was envisioning just this scenario and doing everything he could to prepare for it from the moment he took office.

He visualized war, destruction of property and flight of people to other countries from Ukraine from the moment he took his office; and did not try to avoid it, instead prepared for war? Then I would term Zelenskyy as Vlad and not Putin. Ukraine was Zelenskyy's responsibility. He failed his people.

 

[fantome profane]

He visualized war, destruction of property and flight of people to other countries from Ukraine from the moment he took his office; and did not try to avoid it, instead prepared for war? Then I would term Zelenskyy as Vlad and not Putin. Ukraine was Zelenskyy's responsibility. He failed his people.

He did try to avoid it. He did try to prepare for it. Perhaps he did fail but I don’t know what more he could have done.

You want to blame the victim for not stopping the bully.

 

[Revoltingest]

. But Zelenskyy did not visualize this scenario. That is why I blame him.

It's Zelensky's fault that Putin invaded Ukraine?
All cuz of lack of anticipating it?

 

[fantome profane]

It's Zelensky's fault that Putin invaded Ukraine?
All cuz of lack of anticipating it?

He should have built a wall.

 

[Aupmanyav]

He did try to avoid it. He did try to prepare for it. Perhaps he did fail but I don’t know what more he could have done.
You want to blame the victim for not stopping the bully.

Apparently he (and also his predecessor, Poroshenko) did not do enough. Zelenskyy will do it now after so much loss. IMHO, it was not difficult to placate Russia. He should have kept his distance from European Union and NATO.

 

[fantome profane]

Apparently he did not do enough. He will do it now after so much loss. IMHO, it was not difficult to placate Russia. He could have kept his distance from NATO.

I don’t believe that would have stopped Putin.

On the other hand if he actually joined NATO that would have made Putin think twice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's Zelensky's fault that Putin invaded Ukraine?
All cuz of lack of anticipating it?

No, it is not wholly Zelenskyy's fault. It is the fault of Ukranian people also. They forgot the realities and allowed themselves to be swept by ideas of freedom. It was Poroshenko's fault also.

On the other hand if he actually joined NATO that would have made Putin think twice.

I do not know if a NATO membership can stop Russia from doing what it considers necessary for it.
Why does not NATO make Ukraine a member of their organization now? What hinders them? It is no more than a smoke screen. It seems NATO does not worry equally for all its members but for only its core members.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, it is not wholly Zelenskyy's fault. It is the fault of Ukranian people also. They forgot the realities and allowed themselves to be swept by ideas of freedom.

After years of Soviet oppression & famine,
how dare they want freedom from that regime.

 

[Kooky]

No, it is not wholly Zelenskyy's fault. It is the fault of Ukranian people also.

So you not believe Putin or the Russian people have agency? Do you think they are blindly following divine destiny, mere machines and automats, slaves to the inevitable laws of nature?
Were Ukrainians the only people who had a choice in this scenario?

 

[Revoltingest]

So you not believe Putin or the Russian people have agency? Do you think they are blindly following divine destiny, mere machines and automats, slaves to the inevitable laws of nature?
Were Ukrainians the only people who had a choice in this scenario?

If Ukrainians would just give their country to Putin,
there'd be no trouble. They too could enjoy rejoining
the Soviet Empire's worker paradise.

 

[Stevicus]

After years of Soviet oppression & famine,
how dare they want freedom from that regime.

At the time Ukraine seceded from the USSR, so did the Russian Federation. They all wanted freedom from the same regime.