Maybe NATO should back down?

[Aupmanyav]

@Augustus said: "Being a permanent vassal creates more suffering than a reasonable settlement, so why should they capitulate?

Aup. says: IMHO, it was not necessary to be vessal of Russia. But giving a challenge to Russia by deposing a President, the choosing a person as president who did not understand international politics, and finally deciding to apply for membership of NATO was a little too much for Russia. Ukranians, US and NATO deliberately provoked Russia. Did Zelenskyy hope for participation of NATO in a Ukranian-Russian war? If he did, then he is an amateur in politics. I think the harder the Ukranians resist, the harder Russia would hit them. The solution was/is to take their susceptibilities in consideration. Zelenskyy needs to resign to save Ukraine.

 

[Flankerl]

Source?

Russian apartment bombings - Wikipedia

I trust Russians because they are the only ones who want to defend European Civilization from globalism and from terrorism.

Ah so that's why Russian troops fire on Ukrainian civilians.
It all makes sense now.

Wagner Group - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

@sun rise said: "How to ignore what is going on."
Aup. says: Who said ignore? Aup says accommodate Russian view, arrive at a compromise.
And finally, do not give fuel to fire.

 

[Augustus]

@Augustus said: "Being a permanent vassal creates more suffering than a reasonable settlement, so why should they capitulate?

Aup. says: IMHO, it was not necessary to be vessal of Russia. But giving a challenge to Russia by deposing a President, the choosing a person as president who did not understand international politics, and finally deciding to apply for membership of NATO was a little too much for Russia. Ukranians, US and NATO deliberately provoked Russia. Did Zelenskyy hope for participation of NATO in a Ukranian-Russian war? If he did, then he is an amateur in politics. I think the harder the Ukranians resist, the harder Russia would hit them. The solution was/is to take their susceptibilities in consideration. Zelenskyy needs to resign to save Ukraine.

When you only get to exist to the extent you bow down to your neighbour and do whatever it is that they demand, you are a vassal. You demand that of Ukraine.

You are very quick to demand that others become vassals to appease others, but would not accept that for your own country.

That is hypocrisy.

Would you tell Modi to bow down to China if they demand it? Or resign if they request it?

They are more militarily powerful than you after all, so refusal would just be poking the dragon. Accept your status as slaves, otherwise you only prolong the suffering.

(and if that is not acceptable to you, don't demand it of others)

 

[England my lionheart]

Spoiler: Scholar says Global South mistrusts US intentions

This video says there are many people in the southern hemisphere that view US as a provocateur in this current Russian-Ukraine war. The scholar in the included video argues that NATO has threatened Russia by potentially placing nukes there, and he also says that US CIA has promoted right wing candidates in Ukraine thus interfering with its politics. These are seen as provocations which have triggered some anxiety in Russia. He compares NATO's actions to those of the USSR when it attempted to place nukes in Cuba in the 60's. He says that there was a diplomatic way to handle this situation but that "The West was not interested in a diplomatic solution" and also worries that the USA with our enormous military will also stoke tensions in the Far East.

He condemns the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but he does think the US and NATO helped to cause the situation.

I think he makes an argument though perhaps there are counter perspectives to consider.

Sorry but i call that BS,NATO is for defense,if it wasn't we would probably be in ww3,putins ambition was to see his best friend who he worked with in the KGB Vicktor Medvedchuk who is head of a political party in Ukraine,bingo puppet government then on to the next one,he aa ruthless as Stalin and wants the baltics back..

Thanks to the Ukrainian people and military Putins invasion has not gone well and there are rumours he has lowered his demands that include recognising the two rebel states by Ukraine but really he had the world by the balls.

 

[Augustus]

It depends. If the NATO is entirely controlled by the American Deep State, I seriously doubt that its goal and aim is to defend Europe and its Civilization.
Quite the opposite I'd say, knowing the Deep State..

20 years ago, you weren't talking about deep-state and Soros memes.

Yet somehow you think they should have impacted decision making 20 years ago?

All you are doing is saying whatever is most faddish according to your current ideology.

It is not an attempt at anything other than presenting your current prejudices as if they were eternal truths.

 

[Flankerl]

But giving a challenge to Russia by deposing a President

lol a President who went against the will of his people, amassed a ridiculous amount of wealth, fired on his own people and curiously found shelter in Russia.

the choosing a person as president who did not understand international politics

Yeah Democracy is horrible.
All heads of state and government all over the world should be chosen by Vladimir Putin.

2019 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

and finally deciding to apply for membership of NATO

Look at you denying Ukrainians to make their own choice.

I think the harder the Ukranians resist, the harder Russia would hit them.

Or they send as many Russian soldiers back in body bags as possible.

Zelenskyy needs to resign to save Ukraine.

And then what?
Installation of a Russian puppet on the throne?

You do realise the Ukrainians are going to kill each and every puppet Russia will install right?

20 years ago, you weren't talking about deep-state and Soros memes.

Yet somehow you think they should have impacted decision making 20 years ago?

All you are doing is saying whatever is most faddish according to your current ideology.

It is not an attempt at anything other than presenting your current prejudices as if they were eternal truths.

There was something remarkable on twitter.
Before the 24th February a lot of accounts were posting the usual: Soros, Israel, Anti-Covid Vaccination, evil USA, evil EU etc.

But after the 24th quite a lot of those changed to pro-Russia anti-Ukraine.

Most far-right parties in the EU get money from Russia.
Russia Today is pro vaccination in Russia, it's anti vaccination outside of Russia.

It doesn't take a genius to see the writing on the wall.

 

[Estro Felino]

20 years ago, you weren't talking about deep-state and Soros memes.

Yet somehow you think they should have impacted decision making 20 years ago?

All you are doing is saying whatever is most faddish according to your current ideology.

It is not an attempt at anything other than presenting your current prejudices as if they were eternal truths.

If the Brussels institutions deny access to George Soros, I will stop fearing this man.

 

[Estro Felino]

@sun rise said: "How to ignore what is going on."
Aup. says: Who said ignore? Aup says accommodate Russian view, arrive at a compromise.
And finally, do not give fuel to fire.

Since mainstream sources are biased...I am exclusively relying on Indian media in English, lately.

 

[Augustus]

If the Brussels institutions deny access to George Soros, I will stop fearing this man.

So NATO should have trusted Russia in 2000 because you fear soros in 2022?

 

[Estro Felino]

So NATO should have trusted Russia in 2000 because you fear soros in 2022?

If that had happened, the NATOzone would have been a continuous territory...from Alaska to Siberia, from Greenland to Moscow

 

[Augustus]

If that had happened, the NATOzone would have been a continuous territory...from Alaska to Siberia, from Greenland to Moscow

How does that go against the globalist agenda you fear?

 

[Stevicus]

Russian apartment bombings - Wikipedia

From the link:

The 1999 attacks were officially attributed to Chechen terrorists.[15] According to some historians and journalists, the bombings were coordinated by the Russian state security services to bring Putin into the presidency.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] Others disagree with such theories.[24][25][26][27][28][29] Independent investigations have faced obstruction from Russian security services, raising further suspicions about their involvement in the attacks.[30][31]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

 

[Estro Felino]

How does that go against the globalist agenda you fear?

I can affirm that when Putin comes to Rome loosens up. He is an open book to us.
I remind you guys that he did want to be readmitted into G8.
PM Conte goes to Washington and asks US to lift the sanctions on Russia and to readmit her into G8.
It was all useless. The plea was not heard.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It depends. If the NATO is entirely controlled by the American Deep State, I seriously doubt that its goal and aim is to defend Europe and its Civilization.
Quite the opposite I'd say, knowing the Deep State..

There is no evidence of an "American deep state." Mixing conspiracy theories with analysis of a sensitive geopolitical situation is a surefire way to minimize the gravity and ramifications of war--something I would argue is ethically questionable at best.

 

[Estro Felino]

There is no evidence of an "American deep state." Mixing conspiracy theories with analysis of a sensitive geopolitical situation is a surefire way to minimize the gravity and ramifications of war--something I would argue is ethically questionable at best.

I said "if".

 

[Flankerl]

From the link:



Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

Yup just a conspiracy. Let's ignore how the Russian state hindered any independent investigation.


The same Russian state which gassed civilians in a theatre that was taken over by terrorists.

 

[esmith]

Seems like there was this type of appeasment just a few years ago ("few" depends on ones age)

 

[Revoltingest]

I will give you an example to explain why listening to views of such people is key to understanding processes in the world:
One of my history professors told us that for years before the 9/11 attacks, experts on the Middle East and on Islam warned the US that such an attack was inevitable. They did not know when it would happen or where specifically, but they knew it would happen in the US and that it would be major. How did they know that? Simple: They read what the various Islamic terror groups put out over the years, listened to their speeches, heard their rhetoric, studied their worldviews, and drew this conclusion.

The US government, on the other hand, took your approach. They ignored these scholars, and so were naturally shocked when the attack happened. Could they have prevented it somehow? I do not know. I am not a security expert. It is notable, however, that since that event, airport security has tightened a hundredfold, and particularly in the US.

You are free to continue ignoring the world around you. But please, don't act shocked the next time something like this happens. Usually this doesn't come out of the blue. You just chose to turn a blind eye.

We didn't need scholars to tell us of the risk.
It was obvious from all the hijackings around the
world that what happened there can happen here.
And as Mr Murphy says, anything that can happen
will happen. We never took security seriously cuz
we lacked the immediacy of experience...which is
how people learn, ie, the hard way.

No one ever asked for my advice on avoiding airplane
hijackings. They wouldn't have liked it anyway.

 

[Stevicus]

Yup just a conspiracy. Let's ignore how the Russian state hindered any independent investigation.

Yes, governments do tend to consider such things "classified for reasons of national security." Sounds very, very familiar.