Meaning can never be exhausted!

[TransmutingSoul]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances..." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

There is also other ancient traditions in Judaism and Muslim that talk about this topic. Baha'u'llah quoted some Islamic traditions.

“Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.”

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?



Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances..." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

There is also other ancient traditions in Judaism and Muslim that talk about this topic. Baha'u'llah quoted some Islamic traditions.

“Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.”

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?

View attachment 59961

Regards Tony

I think (believe) God speak on multiple levels at one time, so does the scriptures given to human beings, so everyone can have a way to understand and realise the truth from God.

 

[Sheldon]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

Except science is based on objective evidence, and religions is not.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

Oh I agree, all the religious tomes I have encountered are widely ambiguous and contradictory.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

If only a deity with omniscience and omnipotence could communicate effectively and definitively.

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

I get my thoughts from my brain, it is fallible and limited as the evolved brains of all evolved apes must be, but that is what we have.

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?

I don't see or believe in any extant deity, as no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity or deities.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances..." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

There is also other ancient traditions in Judaism and Muslim that talk about this topic. Baha'u'llah quoted some Islamic traditions.

“Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.”

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?

View attachment 59961

Regards Tony

Neither. Why would God speak at all? Humans imagine what He might say, but maybe He says nothing. Maybe He dances the eternal dance, or is the silent watcher of his own emanation. Thinking He speaks is anthropomorphizing God. Bad case of anthropomorphicitis.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think (believe) God speak on multiple levels at one time, so does the scriptures givento human beings, so everyone can have a way to understand and realise the truth from God.

I see that would be a very sound statement.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except science is based on objective evidence, and religions is not.



Oh I agree, all the religious tomes I have encountered are widely ambiguous and contradictory.



If only a deity with omniscience and omnipotence could communicate effectively and definitively.



I get my thoughts from my brain, it is fallible and limited as the evolved brains of all evolved apes must be, but that is what we have.



I don't see or believe in any extant deity, as no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity or deities.

Sticking to the subject, you then see that there are limitations to what language can produce?

Regards Tony

 

[The Hammer]

Except science is based on objective evidence, and religions is not.



Oh I agree, all the religious tomes I have encountered are widely ambiguous and contradictory.



If only a deity with omniscience and omnipotence could communicate effectively and definitively.



I get my thoughts from my brain, it is fallible and limited as the evolved brains of all evolved apes must be, but that is what we have.



I don't see or believe in any extant deity, as no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity or deities.

What if we are just figments of the mind of Gods? A dream perchance? Illusion?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Neither. Why would God speak at all? Humans imagine what He might say, but maybe He says nothing. Maybe He dances the eternal dance, or is the silent watcher of his own emanation. Thinking He speaks is anthropomorphizing God. Bad case of anthropomorphicitis.

Well God is not material, and all we know of God is but Spirit, which is also created.

So it is not anthropomorphizing God to suggest that God speaks via that spirit through a chosen Messenger.

So what is your take.on Words? For instance how many meanings can the poet find in the word Sun?

Regards Tony

 

[The Hammer]

Well God is not material, and all we know of God is but Spirit, which is also created.

So it is not anthropomorphizing God to suggest that God speaks via that spirit through a chosen Messenger.

So what is your take.on Words? For instance how many meanings can the poet find in the word Sun?

Regards Tony

Well considering meaning is something we give and isn't an inherent quality, the possibilities are limitless. Our language is cool like that, I think it's called recursion.

Finite inputs (letters), infinite output (stories/meaning)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What if we are just figments of the mind of Gods? A dream perchance? Illusion?

View attachment 59963

This world is indeed the mirage.

"..Grieve thou not over the troubles and hardships of this nether world, nor be thou glad in times of ease and comfort, for both shall pass away. This present life is even as a swelling wave, or a mirage, or drifting shadows. Could ever a distorted image on the desert serve as refreshing waters? No, by the Lord of Lords! Never can reality and the mere semblance of reality be one, and wide is the difference between fancy and fact, between truth and the phantom thereof.

Know thou that the Kingdom is the real world, and this nether place is only its shadow stretching out. A shadow hath no life of its own; its existence is only a fantasy, and nothing more; it is but images reflected in water, and seeming as pictures to the eye." – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 177-178.

We are here just for a blink in time, our brains processing what is relevant to our own chosen frames of references. If we choose to draw from a higher consciousness, then anything is possible.

Regards Tony

 

[The Hammer]

This world is indeed the mirage.

"..Grieve thou not over the troubles and hardships of this nether world, nor be thou glad in times of ease and comfort, for both shall pass away. This present life is even as a swelling wave, or a mirage, or drifting shadows. Could ever a distorted image on the desert serve as refreshing waters? No, by the Lord of Lords! Never can reality and the mere semblance of reality be one, and wide is the difference between fancy and fact, between truth and the phantom thereof.

Know thou that the Kingdom is the real world, and this nether place is only its shadow stretching out. A shadow hath no life of its own; its existence is only a fantasy, and nothing more; it is but images reflected in water, and seeming as pictures to the eye." – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 177-178.

We are here just for a blink in time, our brains processing what is relevant to our own chosen frames of references. If we choose to draw from a higher consciousness, then anything is possible.

Regards Tony

Yeah we're always milliseconds behind "reality".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah we're always milliseconds behind "reality".

Just a heartbeat away.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is reality?

Look at an Orange what we see is relative to our nature, nurture and animal needs.

Use science and look at what an orange is, well a whole creation starts to unfold.

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

Sticking to the subject, you then see that there are limitations to what language can produce?

Regards Tony

Language changes over time, definitions are altered. Language is only a reference to a meaning and often the meanings we cherish get lost to future generations, mainly because people find other uses for the words.

Faith is a word that has changed. Language seems to work by consensus.

That's why truthfulness is such an important quality. Truthfulness is about seeking out the meanings other people are trying to convey by language in an accurate way.

There are meanings that are quite obviously true to me that don't come across so well in language.

Etymology is useful.

To understand other people takes working through the language barriers.

I can talk about virtues and vices all day and people may have half hearted definitions, or completely different references for those words than I do, so the meanings don't come across as well as I would like.

That's why discussion is best before ever debating someone.

Defining terms might be laborious. People need to convey that what they mean isn't a waste of time to get into meaningful discussions.

When I read the KJV Bible I feel like I'm in a time warp; all the archaic meanings.

A good question to people is do they think modern language is more advanced, or less so?

Without getting the terminology correctly understood a lot of simple meanings get lost.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's why discussion is best before ever debating someone.

That is what I prefer, discussion. In the end I personally stop discussion, that has moved on to a debate of differing opinions, when it becomes argument, as then both have lost.

In the past I have put topics such as this in discussions, yet they seem to get moved to debate.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Well God is not material, and all we know of God is but Spirit, which is also created.

So it is not anthropomorphizing God to suggest that God speaks via that spirit through a chosen Messenger.

So what is your take.on Words? For instance how many meanings can the poet find in the word Sun?

Regards Tony

Words? Sorry, I'm not into words with regard to religion. Let others do that. My Gods don't communicate through human-created words. Most certainly not through self-appointed egotistical 'I can speak on behalf of God' sort of people. But sure, go for it, if you believe God selects people who control others under their spell through words. I try not to be under the control of another. But yeah that's your cup of tea. Go for it.

Silence is golden.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Words? Sorry, I'm not into words with regard to religion. Let others do that. My Gods don't communicate through human-created words. Most certainly not through self-appointed egotistical 'I can speak on behalf of God' sort of people. But sure, go for it, if you believe God selects people who control others under their spell through words. I try not to be under the control of another. But yeah that's your cup of tea. Go for it.

Silence is golden.

I would offer in return that good reasoning and logic show me that a teacher cannot be silent, they have to teach with words using their own education and wisdom. The best teachers are those where their life also reflects what they teach.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My Gods don't communicate through human-created words.

You may not be aware, but I also see God does not communicate with human created words, I see the word is spirit.

The words are like the outer lamp and the meaning is the light. That meaning, the light is the potential within us all, it is the light that shines from the lamp or words. In the human condition this light is the words that can be offered, and is also seen in deeds and action's.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

So it is not anthropomorphizing God to suggest that God speaks via that spirit through a chosen Messenger.

That works fine for people within a religion on how they interpret and find meaning in their own Scriptures.

And it's fine for Baha'is to find multiple meanings in their Scriptures. But, once we move away from the Baha'i Faith and probably Islam too, the "messenger" didn't necessarily write the Scriptures. Which is okay for that particular religion to choose what they want to call Scripture. But if others are going to "find" other meanings, it going to be based on words written by people not the messenger.

Another thing that happens is the cherry-picking of the Scriptures of the other religions and "finding" meanings. A person can find "words" in the Scriptures of another religion that will contradict some of the beliefs held by those in the other religions. An example would be finding "words" that contradict reincarnation. Or "words" that support that Buddha taught about God. Or, as with the resurrection of Jesus, make some words symbolic and not literal. Even though most people in that religion take those words as describing an actual, historical event.

Probably the most common thing done with "words" is find prophetic meanings in them. As you know, I'm not a fan of how Matthew, or whoever wrote that gospel, took one verse, Isaiah 7:14, and made it a prophecy about Jesus. Or how Baha'is take the word, "Wow", and make it mean a manifestation of God.

The other problem is taking away words from other Scriptures. Like with the story of Abraham taking Isaac to be sacrificed. It is the Jewish Bible. It is their story. Yet, Baha'i say that story and those words are false. The son taken by Abraham was Ishmael.

So, sure find all the deep, hidden meanings you want. But don't ignore the obvious and plain meaning. It might not be the meaning you want, but it could be the meaning the writer intended.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, sure find all the deep, hidden meanings you want. But don't ignore the obvious and plain meaning. It might not be the meaning you want, but it could be the meaning the writer intended.

Or it was the intended meaning, a test and it was up to us to consider the deeper meanings.

That is the quandary CG. Science is only too ready to look deeper into all things, yet faith has stagnated to a "what I see, is what it is mentality".

I am seeing more and more wisdom as why Faith and Science are the wings of one bird.

This is a fuller quote that I posted above and is what Baha'u'llah offered about the word "Sun".

"...Every word sent down from the heaven of Divine Revelation, He stated, is filled with soft-flowing rivers of divine mysteries and wisdom. Bahá’u’lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance.

Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbours, and share with them their food and their drink." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 29-33

Regards Tony