Meaning can never be exhausted!

[Vinayaka]

I would offer in return that good reasoning and logic show me that a teacher cannot be silent, they have to teach with words using their own education and wisdom. The best teachers are those where their life also reflects what they teach.

Regards Tony

External teachers, sure. But inner teaching can be conveyed in silence, or found within in silence. If one can tune into the vibration of his mystical teacher, he'll get a lot out of it. In Hinduism, many ancient and even current sages like Ramana used silence. But you're in a religion of words, so I get that. It's just that it doesn't apply to all the other religions on this planet.

 

[Vinayaka]

Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbours, and share with them their food and their drink." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 29-33

Regards Tony

It's insulting quotes like this that are a real turnoff from this faith. He's saying that if you don't agree with his interpretation of scriptures, then you're dead spiritually. That's kind of rude, in my view. Representative of God? Just who made you the boss?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

External teachers, sure. But inner teaching can be conveyed in silence, or found within in silence. If one can tune into the vibration of his mystical teacher, he'll get a lot out of it. In Hinduism, many ancient and even current sages like Ramana used silence. But you're in a religion of words, so I get that. It's just that it doesn't apply to all the other religions on this planet.

It could be considered both are needed, silence and meditation to find the wisdom in what we will offer in words. Mindful, that fewness of words and an abundance of deeds, is the life of of a spiritual person.

Maybe one day I can become a spiritual person and RF will see me no more?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's insulting quotes like this that are a real turnoff from this faith. He's saying that if you don't agree with his interpretation of scriptures, then you're dead spiritually. That's kind of rude, in my view. Representative of God? Just who made you the boss?

The key Vinayaka is that we all have to face those words.

(Edit I will also add that most of these admonitions are directed at the religious divines, as it is those that guide the multitude.)

Yes we get the choice as to if they are an insult, or are they actually our light and our life?

Baha'u'llah has offered they are not his words, and Baha'u'llah has offered he would have preferred to remained silent. Yet God, as you have suggested, is the boss.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The key Vinayaka is that we all have to face those words.

We? Thank you, but I'll stand back, you go ahead.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances..." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

There is also other ancient traditions in Judaism and Muslim that talk about this topic. Baha'u'llah quoted some Islamic traditions.

“Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.”

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?

View attachment 59961

Regards Tony

One thing I love is that with the political parties in America they can talk back and forth forever.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So how do you see the Word of God?

Phony.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One thing I love is that with the political parties in America they can talk back and forth forever.

So would you see those as empty words, with no substance?

Regards Tony

 

[robocop (actually)]

So would you see those as empty words, with no substance?

Regards Tony

No actually I think it's pretty cool for both of them that they can do so.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Phony.

So how do you determine when a word is phony?

 

[Aupmanyav]

When no proof is provided other than the vision of a 'heavenly maiden'.

 

[firedragon]

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

This cannot be used to make things up and attribute them to verses people have never studied or understood in its language.

Generally this happens strangely.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This cannot be used to make things up and attribute them to verses people have never studied or understood in its language.

Generally this happens strangely.

Yes it does happen and we have been warned against attributing our own meanings to what God has offered

This does not take away from the potential in that word, as long as it is explored in a positive and progressive manner, without attributing finality to the meaning and that our ideas are truth.

A good example from the Quran is where Muhammad reveals passages about Jesus and Mary. Those passages gave new understanding and meaning to subjects such as the doctrine of the trinity, it was Gid that gave this meaning, yet to a Christain it would just be made up.

So It is God that can give new meaning to old Words.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

A good example from the Quran is where Muhammad reveals passages about Jesus and Mary. Those passages gave new understanding and meaning to subjects such as the doctrine of the trinity, it was Gid that gave this meaning, yet to a Christain it would just be made up.

What old words? It says what it says. Quran negates the Trinity. IT is not a rendition issue. There are no old words given new meaning. Its the same old meaning.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When no proof is provided other than the vision of a 'heavenly maiden'.

Since we are unable to meet the source, would not the proof be the Word itself?

Like the word Equality. How was that viewed in the past and how is it redefined in the Message given by Baha'u'llah. There are many words that can be explored in this manner.

Most likely best to leave it alone though, as words can can only contain pain, if God is taken in vein. Words of tears will flow, for such a personal blow.

Behind those words, even though just my thoughts and.just my poem, there is much meaning.

Regards Tony

 

[PruePhillip]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances..." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

There is also other ancient traditions in Judaism and Muslim that talk about this topic. Baha'u'llah quoted some Islamic traditions.

“Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.”

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?

View attachment 59961

Regards Tony

Funny, I thought Jesus' admonition to 'love your neighbor as yourself' had ONE meaning.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Funny, I thought Jesus' admonition to 'love your neighbor as yourself' had ONE meaning.

How can it only have one meaning? With 8 billion people on this planet, there is 8 billion selves all Loving themselves in different ways.

Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

Like speaking in tongues, perhaps?

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

That will usually depend on how clearly the author had expressed himself or herself, which in turn will usually depend on the clarity of his or her thinking.

I have no argument with creative writing ─ poetry and fiction ─ but I think synthesis needs to be balanced by analysis, or one can find oneself over one's waist in a Great Dismal Swamp of one's own making ─ or worse, not notice that's the case.

 

[DNB]

I think this is a great topic, as it allows us to embrace science while contemplating Religious Scripture.

I see the biggest error we can make, it to think that Words and passages of scripture have but one meaning. To me they are creation every letter of every word has a universe of meaning.

In saying that, there will always be an outward meaning that appears clear and concise and will guide us, yet, what else can the same Word and Passage also mean?

I get my thoughts from these passages offered in the Baha'i Writings.

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings..." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"...Not only do the words uttered by the Manifestations have inner meanings but even a single letter contains divine mysteries and significances..." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 34

There is also other ancient traditions in Judaism and Muslim that talk about this topic. Baha'u'llah quoted some Islamic traditions.

“Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.”

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

So how do you see the Word of God?

Limited?
Unlimited?

View attachment 59961

Regards Tony

Yes, of course, for in the wisdom of God, it is always comprehensive and well-rounded - never one-faceted or circumstantial. So there is always several applications to any one proverb, precept or ordinance. For example, even as Jean Calvin demonstrated in the Law of Moses how truly comprehensive the decalogue actually was. For instance, the injunction to not kill, does it not also mean to not harm? And therefore, can it not also intend that one does not deprive his neighbour of assistance (sins of omission). Thus, do not kill implies to look out for your neighbours general well being .

But, be extremely careful, for it is excessively easy and precarious to insert meaning to a text when it was not the authorial intent. Such infractions are often referred to as heresy, ...and there is more heresy in the Christian Church, for example, then there is orthodoxy, as in any religion I would expect. As, it is much easier to be unrestrained and impetuous when interpreting Scripture, than to be disciplined and sober.

So, in general, I would strongly advise to strive to comprehend the immediate contextual meaning first, and understand it well so that the parameters are clear. Then, seek to apply the wisdom where it is viably applicable to do so. Never stray until the initial meaning is understood and grasped thoroughly, and don't force unwarranted extrapolations where the substantiation is just not there - refrain from eisegesis.

 

[DNB]

Sticking to the subject, you then see that there are limitations to what language can produce?

Regards Tony

No, I believe that he was saying that there are extreme limitations to what his particular 'ape' brain can produce.
Maybe a banana will placate him?