Meat Eaters = Selfish (Steve & Bill)

[Iti oj]

Can you elaborate further?

go your vegetarian thing, but learn to hunt and eat what you kill, learn do do it spirtialy if you like and how to use the whole animal

 

[The Sum of Awe]

As long as you're just going to make things up about the other side of an argument, might as well claim I'm eating babies. Swift would be proud.

I just said it was related, never said you were religious... Also, who is making things up? You are claiming creatures with brains just like us have no awareness.

 

[Iti oj]

I just said it was related, never said you were religious... Also, who is making things up? You are claiming creatures with brains just like us have no awareness.

Be careful here cause their is awareness and self awareness.

 

[Madhuri]

And yes, I have spent a lot of time with animals. And if all those animals are enslaved, then I see nothing wrong with slavery. On many of the small and medium farms, the animals are free to roam, they are treated good and are taken care in a way they would not have been in the wild.

I agree that some of the operations are horrible and need to have something done about them. And the more people learn quality information about the subject, the better we see he treatment of animals. However, equating farmers or ranchers with slavery and the holocaust (not saying you did, but just that it has) or calling meat eaters selfish and questioning their level of compassion, ethics, and morality, simply because they have a different view point does not help.

And really, many humans are treated as badly as animals. And hat is one of the reasons hat I have such a problem with some of the arguments here. Once people begin equating humans with all other animals, historically, we see problems. Once people start using emotional ideas such as slavery or holocaust, we see problems. And I just can't really stomach that.

I would like to point out that in many places in the world, living conditions for animals is absolutely horrific. One of the reasons why places like Aus and the USA are not so bad is precisely because there are people making a fuss about humane treatment of animals.

I can understand that claims of all animal species inc humans being exactly alike in all areas is not a valid argument. I do hold that sometimes using the terms slavery and holocaust is used not to argue about likeness but to make a point about human behaviour and our biases (ie/ once upon a time it was normal to think of a Jew as unworthy of compassion, thus justifying the horrible treatment). It is an argument to try and change your perspective, to try and show that these animals are often also being treated as nothing better than an object. That is generally the point of making statements with 'slavery' as the subject (not including PETA).

Imo, meat eating when there are alternatives (for those who have the means) is selfish BUT it doesn't make you any more selfish than any other person. Choosing not to eat meat is just one way to try and reduce the suffering and terror of this world but there are other ways or other things a person might do. I only think badly of a person who is able to see an animal suffer and have absolutely no compassion.

 

[Averroes]

I would like to point out that in many places in the world, living conditions for animals is absolutely horrific. One of the reasons why places like Aus and the USA are not so bad is precisely because there are people making a fuss about humane treatment of animals.

I can understand that claims of all animal species inc humans being exactly alike in all areas is not a valid argument. I do hold that sometimes using the terms slavery and holocaust is used not to argue about likeness but to make a point about human behaviour and our biases (ie/ once upon a time it was normal to think of a Jew as unworthy of compassion, thus justifying the horrible treatment). It is an argument to try and change your perspective, to try and show that these animals are often also being treated as nothing better than an object. That is generally the point of making statements with 'slavery' as the subject (not including PETA).

Imo, meat eating when there are alternatives (for those who have the means) is selfish BUT it doesn't make you any more selfish than any other person. Choosing not to eat meat is just one way to try and reduce the suffering and terror of this world but there are other ways or other things a person might do. I only think badly of a person who is able to see an animal suffer and have absolutely no compassion.

I am grilling Porterhouse steak tomorrow. So, because there are other alternatives I am selfish?

 

[Madhuri]

I am grilling Porterhouse steak tomorrow. So, because there are other alternatives I am selfish?

Of course. Buying meat is contributing to the suffering and death of other animals. What is the justification? Your...taste buds?

But as I said, it doesn't make you any more selfish than any other person. I'm sure I've bought many products that contribute to cheat labour and abuse in 3rd world or developing nations.

 

[Drolefille]

I just said it was related, never said you were religious... Also, who is making things up? You are claiming creatures with brains just like us have no awareness.

And I eat babies. Because if you're making things up, you should go all the way.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And I eat babies. Because if you're making things up, you should go all the way.

If you make things up you should go all the way also: Nature is dumb, humans are not only not animals but also are the only thing that has consciousness and matters.

 

[Averroes]

Of course. Buying meat is contributing to the suffering and death of other animals. What is the justification? Your...taste buds?

But as I said, it doesn't make you any more selfish than any other person. I'm sure I've bought many products that contribute to cheat labour and abuse in 3rd world or developing nations.

Yea and because I am hungry...Wow...There are whales that kill for sport to satisfy their appetites so they are selfish too? I mean, inevitably because there are too many damn humans on the planet you cannot do something without contributing to someone elses suffering.

 

[Drolefille]

If you make things up you should go all the way also: Nature is dumb, humans are not only not animals but also are the only thing that has consciousness and matters.

Seriously. Be mature.
Read what I wrote and stop deliberately misinterpreting things.

 

[Majikthise]

We are omnivores. Our diet has been a major contributing factor in our ability to survive and adapt to living anywhere on this planet. Saying that eating meat is selfish is a rather ignorrant statement IMO.
Every time you take medicine you are causing millions of germs to suffer. Don't they have a right to live too?:sarcastic

 

[Me Myself]

I agree that some people's diets can be healthy without eating meat.

I would think at least most people. According to ADA (American Dietary Association)

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."

Elsevier

I myself was a vegetarian for a few years, and only changed because my doctor said that I needed to eat meat. This was after I nearly died because of a few health complications. Meat provides the nutrients that I need, in a form that agrees with my body.

For my son, the doctor said that he needed to eat more meat because he was lacking a few nutrients that meat was a good choice for. Sure, we both probably could have gone other ways, but it simply is not a viable option for us.

I don´t know if you "needed the meat" because:

1- It was a must in the specifical medical condition you were(whichever that was) for motives I ignore.

2- because your Doctor was not as prepared or informed on the subject as ADA people

3- Because there are indeed some people that for some reason cannot follow a vegetarian diet in a way that is healthy to them. (there are many ways to be a vegetarian, and you do have to know what you eat, not any "non-meat" = every nutrient you need)

I left yo the link to this people, I doub´t that there are people that truly can´t eat a vegetarian diet and be as healthy as the ADA says a vegetarian diet can be, but in my the lack of technical knowledge, it would be silly to affirm such as a fact.

I would love to hear more about your story (if it´s posible) so I know which are these nutrients that you couldn´t have obtained without meat.

I see not eating meat, to cause even more suffering for animals. It wreaks havoc on the ecosystem, and it does increase the killing of various carnivores that threaten people's livestock, pets, and even family.

That sounds very iffy. For starters there are 7 billion of us and that was never the case in the world. For this 7 billion we have to make and mantain enough cows so we can have meat for them, cows that wouldn´t have existed if not for this quantity of people. Maybe there are places where vegetarianism would make problems (I won´t say I can know the ecosystem you live in with the deers and stuff) but for most of those 7 billions of people, the ecosystem around us wasn´t meant to mantain all of us with meat, we make that meat.

That meat is cows that were born for the specific purpose of dying for us, that have a pathethic life and psychological pain througout all their lifes. You have seen animals from close, you know that as wird they behaviour may be, they have emotions, they feel pain, they have understandings (not saying they have our levels of understanding, naturaly) . So the conditions in which the bast bast bast majority of life that is breeded for our tasteful pleasure and slaugthered for such is sadistic, dark, horrible...

I don´t see much trouble with animals in the conditions that yo describe, they live a natural life and die (I am guessing almost painlessly?) as any other being is bound to die. But this is just heaven compatrd to what most cows/chickens/etc suffer. They are a great minority.

Reality is that the 7 billion of people eating meat (and much much more meat than it is even healthy that is) are mostly contributing to the most horrible painful conditions for sentient beings capable of refined pain that we are harvesting for them. In a completely brand human created enviroment.

Could much of the industry be changed to be better for animals? Yes, they could and in fact, many are moving that, especially when quality information is given about the negative environments that some of these places have. However, something that is also having a hard time going forward because of the disgraceful propaganda used by organization such as PETA and various vegetarians who label people who eat meat as selfish, and unethical. That is not the way to win converts, and it only makes vegetarians look egotistical (because as does happen many times, the minority does shame the entire group).

I agree that the kind of campaigns used by PETA are not the best ways to win converts, but I think this is the way that things like slavery and gender and racial discrimination were put to an end. Disgracefully sometimes humans as a colective force react better to negative reinforcement rather than good reinforcement.

I am not syaing it is the best,but I don´t really even care, so let´s leave that at that. The thing is that slauthering animals is still completely unnecesary for the dietary needs of at least most of humanity (if not all, compare to options above as to why your thing, I wouldn´t be able to know for sure)

I may have misunderstood you. I assumed that you were in the same camp as the OP, which does seem to be more extreme. With what you explained here, I would say I was wrong about your stance, and I apologize for that.

Thanks andaccepted, we all eff up

However, I do still agree that being a vegetarian is necessarily more compassionate. I love animals, and when I was younger, I did have the chance to help raise a lot of the meat I ate. And I can say without a doubt, the better a cow was treated (the less stress it was under (sometimes this stress was caused by purely natural means such as storms)) and taken care of, the better quality the meat was.

We also spent quite a bit of time making sure that the cattle was safe. This meant going out in storms, at all times of the day, and doing what was possible to make sure that they were taken care of (sometimes this also meat killing them (which was a considerable monetary loss), when they would have otherwise suffered (such as being stuck in mud, with no possible way of getting out without doing serious damage to them)).

And that is really cool, but most places where meat is being harvested are generaly not like that. Not little farms of such conditions you are talking about.

Reality is that meat is mass produced in a machine of suffering and pain to all animals involved with the tiniests of exceptions.

Ultimately, at least for most of us, meat is not evn necesary for our survival. It´s just something we like to taste, that´s it. For people like this, they are equating the plasure they have by tasting meat to the suffering that all those animals for this billions of people have so we can feel such pleasure.

And saying its okay.

I mean honestly, if it is needed for survival, okay, but if it is just taste (like probably 90% or more of cases) it is a selfish way to act in this specific area.

I grant them moral consideration. It is immoral to abuse an animal, to cause it pain for fun or due to carelessness.

This is all that you need. Instead of eating meat because it tastes yummy in your mouth, think on the animal that died just for you to feel a little pleasure.

Does it really feel equivalent?

 

[Me Myself]

We are omnivores. Our diet has been a major contributing factor in our ability to survive and adapt to living anywhere on this planet. Saying that eating meat is selfish is a rather ignorrant statement IMO.
Every time you take medicine you are causing millions of germs to suffer. Don't they have a right to live too?:sarcastic

We eat medicine to survive.

People eat meat because they like the flavour (not to live, if that was the case vegetarians would be extinct )

Yea and because I am hungry...

False, that´s the reason you eat, not the reason you eat steak. I am sure you can discern the difference.

 

[Averroes]

We eat medicine to survive.

People eat meat because they like the flavour (not to live, if that was the case vegetarians would be extinct )




False, that´s the reason you eat, not the reason you eat steak. I am sure you can discern the difference.

Steak is just one of the few variety of meats I choose to eat while famished. I don't see how this is false. When I was a poor college student I ate mayonnaise sandwiches (yes just two pieces of white bread and mayo in between). that didn't taste so good but I was hungry. Similarly, at home on a Sunny day because I live in California on certain times of the day, I do get hungry and have an appetite of eating certain meats.

 

[Me Myself]

Steak is just one of the few variety of meats I choose to eat while famished. I don't see how this is false.

what I mean´t was that you don´t need stake to live.

which other reason do you have to eat stake besides the fact that you like the flavour of stake? (taking in consideration that you don´t need to eat stake when there are other sources for the same nutrients)

Steak is just one of the few variety of meats I choose to eat while famished. I don't see how this is false. When I was a poor college student I ate mayonnaise sandwiches (yes just two pieces of white bread and mayo in between). that didn't taste so good but I was hungry. Similarly, at home on a Sunny day because I live in California on certain times of the day, I do get hungry and have an appetite of eating certain meats.

*you expanded you answer so I do the same *

I am sorry to hear that, but a vegetarian diet that is healthy doesn´t need to be more expensive that a meat diet that is healthy. this may vary depending of where you live. In any case, if you don´t have enough budget to choose what you eat, you naturaly would be in a scenario different to many meat-eaters, where taste is not the only thing thatmakes you eat meat.

Still, I do think in most parts of the world a vegetarian diet is less expensive... at least here it can be far cheaper.

 

[Majikthise]

We eat medicine to survive.

People eat meat because they like the flavour (not to live, if that was the case vegetarians would be extinct )




False, that´s the reason you eat, not the reason you eat steak. I am sure you can discern the difference.

The vegans I know (3 people) have to take dietary suppliments to replace naturally occuring nutrients in meat products. These people also eat fish and eggs on occasion as they do not consider them meat. Also, insects need to be kept under control to grow plants for vegans to eat. How do you think this is accomplished?
I'm sorry, I just find veganism contradictory at every turn.

 

[Averroes]

what I mean´t was that you don´t need stake to live.

which other reason do you have to eat stake besides the fact that you like the flavour of stake? (taking in consideration that you don´t need to eat stake when there are other sources for the same nutrients)

Sure I don't need just steak to live (which over time is rather unhealthy) I mean I don't meats just for flavor but I also think flavor when tasting is a natural thing. We are past the point where we eat things to survive agriculture has settled that problem

 

[Averroes]

what I mean´t was that you don´t need stake to live.

which other reason do you have to eat stake besides the fact that you like the flavour of stake? (taking in consideration that you don´t need to eat stake when there are other sources for the same nutrients)



*you expanded you answer so I do the same *

I am sorry to hear that, but a vegetarian diet that is healthy doesn´t need to be more expensive that a meat diet that is healthy. this may vary depending of where you live. In any case, if you don´t have enough budget to choose what you eat, you naturaly would be in a scenario different to many meat-eaters, where taste is not the only thing thatmakes you eat meat.

Still, I do think in most parts of the world a vegetarian diet is less expensive... at least here it can be far cheaper.

A vegetarian diet is actually expensive here. These little health food stores that cater to Vegetarians are expensive.

 

[Majikthise]

Sure I don't need just steak to live (which over time is rather unhealthy) I mean I don't meats just for flavor but I also think flavor when tasting is a natural thing. We are past the point where we eat things to survive agriculture has settled that problem

Your makin' me want a steak now.:drool:

 

[Me Myself]

The vegans I know (3 people) have to take dietary suppliments to replace naturally occuring nutrients in meat products. These people also eat fish and eggs on occasion as they do not consider them meat.

You may ask your vegan friends their reasons

I am an ovo-lacto vegetarian(this means I eat eggs and milk derivs) and I can tell you my blood results are very healthy without the need of any suplements. Vegans do generaly need to take something at least for b12.

Also, insects need to be kept under control to grow plants for vegans to eat. How do you think this is accomplished?
I'm sorry, I just find veganism contradictory at every turn.

Fertilizers still would need to be used for the cows food and th cow is dying anyways so I see litle extra problem there. Also I wouldn´t deem insects to have a capacity of suffering as refined as animals. Animal´s brains are very similar to ours, apart from some minor differences (that do naturally have BIG effects ) their brains are like ours. They are capable of not only physical pain but psychological pain and they suffer all their life before being turned into meat.