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Meat-Eating vs. Bestiality

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Bestiality laws are not born of the animal rights campaign but rather out of decency laws.

Still, people accept the consent arguments because we require consent for sexual activity. Consent is for the most part not a considered factor with killing.

While we have justified killings we do not have justified sex. Sex is either consensual or against the law.


So you must understand that the laws governing humans and the laws governing the treatment of animals have come through different paths.
The early anti-cruelty laws in the US were often included in morals and decency sections, along with laws that prohibited adultery, fornication, blasphemy, incest, digging up graves, and bestiality. E.g., New Hampshire Rev. Stat. ch. 219 § 12 (1843), Offences Against Chastity, Decency and Morality: https://www.animallaw.info/statute/...ffences-against-chastity-decency-and-morality Anti-cruelty laws were often justified on the grounds that cruelty to animals morally harmed the person perpetrating the cruelty and/or those who witnessed it. Anti-cruelty laws were sometimes justified on the grounds that animal cruelty was a public nuisance. And, of course, the earliest laws were often only a matter of property crime--some laws today retain this character or wording, in which an act is only illegal when done by someone who doesn’t own the animal.

The most obvious reason for these confused attempts to justify anti-cruelty laws is because the real reason for and purpose of these laws is in direct conflict with the ordinary perverted ways that humans use and treat animals, namely slaughtering them in order to eat their flesh.

Nevertheless, even by the end of the 19th century it began to be recognized by some that the reason for anti-cruelty laws is not because cruel treatment of an animal is a public nuisance, not because it harms the morals of the perpetrator or witness, and not because cruelty is a property crime. Rather:

This statute is for the benefit of animals, as creatures capable of feeling and suffering, and it was intended to protect them from cruelty, without reference to their being property, or to the damages which might thereby be occasioned to their owners [. . .] The common law recognized no rights in such animals, and punished no cruelty to them, except in so far as it affected the right of individuals to such property. Such statutes remedy this defect [. . .] To disregard the rights and feelings of equals, is unjust and ungenerous, but to willfully or wantonly injure or oppress the weak and helpless is mean and cowardly. Human beings have at least some means of protecting themselves against the inhumanity of man,--that inhumanity which 'makes countless thousands mourn,' --but dumb brutes have none. Cruelty to them manifests a vicious and degraded nature, and it tends inevitably to cruelty to men. Animals whose lives are devoted to our use and pleasure, and which are capable, perhaps, of feeling as great physical pain or pleasure as ourselves, deserve, for these considerations alone, kindly treatment.​

Stephens v. State, 3 So. 458-59 (Miss. 1887)

We think that excessively cruel or inhumane treatment of animals is unnecessary and therefore morally wrong. So, this brings to question weather inflicting death is unnecessary or inhumane. The short answer is no.
How did you conclude that? What is the premise by which you deduced that answer? Obviously isn't necessary for humans to slaughter animals to fill their bellies.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm acknowledging my own hypocrisy in finding it acceptable to utilize animals for food and labor, but, not for sexual fulfillment.
Perhaps you should consider that where the logic fails is in "finding it acceptable" to cause an animal to suffer and die merely to satisfy your own temporary and momentary desires.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The early anti-cruelty laws in the US were often included in morals and decency sections, along with laws that prohibited adultery, fornication, blasphemy, incest, digging up graves, and bestiality. E.g., New Hampshire Rev. Stat. ch. 219 § 12 (1843), Offences Against Chastity, Decency and Morality: https://www.animallaw.info/statute/...ffences-against-chastity-decency-and-morality Anti-cruelty laws were often justified on the grounds that cruelty to animals morally harmed the person perpetrating the cruelty and/or those who witnessed it. Anti-cruelty laws were sometimes justified on the grounds that animal cruelty was a public nuisance. And, of course, the earliest laws were often only a matter of property crime--some laws today retain this character or wording, in which an act is only illegal when done by someone who doesn’t own the animal.

The most obvious reason for these confused attempts to justify anti-cruelty laws is because the real reason for and purpose of these laws is in direct conflict with the ordinary perverted ways that humans use and treat animals, namely slaughtering them in order to eat their flesh.

Nevertheless, even by the end of the 19th century it began to be recognized by some that the reason for anti-cruelty laws is not because cruel treatment of an animal is a public nuisance, not because it harms the morals of the perpetrator or witness, and not because cruelty is a property crime. Rather:

This statute is for the benefit of animals, as creatures capable of feeling and suffering, and it was intended to protect them from cruelty, without reference to their being property, or to the damages which might thereby be occasioned to their owners [. . .] The common law recognized no rights in such animals, and punished no cruelty to them, except in so far as it affected the right of individuals to such property. Such statutes remedy this defect [. . .] To disregard the rights and feelings of equals, is unjust and ungenerous, but to willfully or wantonly injure or oppress the weak and helpless is mean and cowardly. Human beings have at least some means of protecting themselves against the inhumanity of man,--that inhumanity which 'makes countless thousands mourn,' --but dumb brutes have none. Cruelty to them manifests a vicious and degraded nature, and it tends inevitably to cruelty to men. Animals whose lives are devoted to our use and pleasure, and which are capable, perhaps, of feeling as great physical pain or pleasure as ourselves, deserve, for these considerations alone, kindly treatment.​

Stephens v. State, 3 So. 458-59 (Miss. 1887)

How did you conclude that? What is the premise by which you deduced that answer? Obviously isn't necessary for humans to slaughter animals to fill their bellies.
I am not even sure what you are disputing. I certainly made mention of the fact that these laws are justified on multiple reasons. I certainly made mention that the original bestiality laws came through decency laws. I also made mention of how these laws were grounded in the affect animal cruelty has on people. It seems to me that you just wanted to quote stephens v. state.

As far as death being cruel.

Cruelty is indifference to suffering and pain.
If one is not indifferent to suffering and pain, one is not cruel.
Humane treatment is one that which is not cruel and does not violate any right.
Animals have no right to life.
Therefore killing does not violate any right.
A person engaged in humane killing is not indifferent to suffering and pain.
A person engaged in humane killing is not cruel.

It is pretty simple. Animals do not have rights (in most places). Animals welfare however is a public concern. There is no right to life for an animal.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The pain I presume that goes along with spaying or neutering.


You tell me, You're the one who said "A shot at the vet, neuter or spade."


.
Well I would suggest that there are public health concerns, economic concerns, environmental concerns etc.

In short, we balance the harm to the animal with the good to the people. Killing animals for food is much similar. Taking their life for our benefit. Now I certainly recognize that we could feed ourselves, or our pets a different way, but our freedom to choose to eat meat or to feed our pets meat outweighs the harm to the animal if the death is not cruel.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Where did you get that idea? Name a biological adaptation that is common to omnivorous animals and that humans have that distinguishes humans from other apes.

https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/smalllarge-intestine-length-ratio
It is thought that reduction of the gut is a function of the higher-quality, easier to digest (i.e., less fibrous) diet of humans realtive to other apes, and that an evolutionary trend for gut reduction began when early members of the genus Homo began to incorporate a greater amount of animal tissues (marrow fat, brain matter, and muscle) about 2.5 million years ago

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-9a.shtml
To use terms that are linked to gut morphology, humans are either faunivores [meat-
eaters] or frugivores with specific (evolutionary) adaptations for the consumption of animal foods. This, of course, means that humans are not natural vegetarians. A short summary of some of the evidence supporting this follows (the material below was discussed in depth in earlier sections of this paper).
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I forgot to mention something... meet-eating is part of our nature as humans, but bestiality is not :D

Or are we suppose to mate with animals?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I forgot to mention something... meet-eating is part of our nature as humans, but bestiality is not :D

Or are we suppose to mate with animals?
A good point, SG, but there are many "natural" practices that are also cruel, immoral and incompatible with a civilized society, so I contend that human nature is a bad metric.

no, we're not supposed to mate with animals. We're not supposed to do a lot of things we normally do in the course of things, but, as Curious George points out, "morals are built upon a more complex framework."
Is your objection to bestiality grounded more on principles of harm/cruelty, or personal disgust (ick!)?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
A good point, SG, but there are many "natural" practices that are also cruel, immoral and incompatible with a civilized society, so I contend that human nature is a bad metric.

I believe that all natural practices should be moderated and controlled. No need to completely cancel them. Some of them seem to be valid to cancel, but I don't think eating animals is one of them.

no, we're not supposed to mate with animals. We're not supposed to do a lot of things we normally do in the course of things, but, as Curious George points out, "morals are built upon a more complex framework."
Is your objection to bestiality grounded more on principles of harm/cruelty, or personal disgust (ick!)?

Both, but I'm all for objecting to it for the former reason. The latter is a choice for who want to do icky stuff, and it is arguable too. But I'd refine the harm/cruelty part with an extra degrading/disrespecting/humiliating. A pet could fall a victim to rape without giving any signs of rejection due to it's love to the owner. Pet are known to submit to the owners. Some of them even take physical damage and just stay there doing nothing but giving suffering sounds. I think bestiality is inhumane.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Perhaps you should consider that where the logic fails is in "finding it acceptable" to cause an animal to suffer and die merely to satisfy your own temporary and momentary desires.

But, then, one would have to accept that using an animal for labor or food is also unacceptable as humans do so to fulfill temporary desires or need.

I'm merely presenting that I acknowledge my own hypocrisy as I find one action to be morally deplorable and others to be acceptable within most contexts. There is a common thread in any way that animals are utilized by humans and that's the human imposition of dominance in the situation.

Some will argue that bestiality is less cruel than death or other forms of physical abuse. In honesty, I acknowledge the possible validity to that point when drawing certain comparisons, even when I oppose bestiality.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
I forgot to mention something... meet-eating is part of our nature as humans, but bestiality is not :D
Aggression is also part of our human nature. Do you suggest that we give into it rather than curb it just because it's part of our nature?

Or are we suppose to mate with animals?
So your moral compass is based on stuff we're "suppose to do"? Don't do anything unless we're suppose to do it? Give me a break.
8351d1339274585t-facepalm-smiley-facepalm.gif


A pet could fall a victim to rape without giving any signs of rejection due to it's love to the owner. Pet are known to submit to the owners. Some of them even take physical damage and just stay there doing nothing but giving suffering sounds.
FYI, this amounts to an exception fallacy. Argument by exception is unacceptable.

I think bestiality is inhumane.
Then how about showing us why you think bestiality is inhumane.

in·hu·mane
ˌin(h)yo͞oˈmān/
adjective
adjective: inhumane
without compassion for misery or suffering; cruel.​

.
 
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Wirey

Fartist
I'm a meat eater myself. Just a preemptive clarification in case someone thinks about accusing me of repeating vegetarian propaganda (whatever that is).

So, I have been thinking about why I and many others who have no religion oppose bestiality, and one of the most common reasons given is that one can't have the consent of animals to acts of bestiality. However, we also don't have the consent of animals to use them for labor or in industrial farming. We don't have their consent to slaughter them either.

With the above in mind, what makes meat-eating acceptable and bestiality unacceptable?

You have to eat to live, screwing is just fun. To quote Alexander Pope "First comes fodder, then comes morality". We view them differently because on is necessary to survive, and one is eating animals. I mean, fun.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
So you cannot describe any sort of "humane slaughter" where the creature being slaughtered has not volunteered?

I can't if your criteria for "humane" means "consentual".

Where did you get that idea? Name a biological adaptation that is common to omnivorous animals and that humans have that distinguishes humans from other apes.

I'm guessing our teeth. Also, doesn't have to distinguish us from other Apes. Chimps are omnivorous to my knowledge, why couldn't humans have been?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I am not even sure what you are disputing.
I did inadvertently cut out the primary claim of yours that I dispute: “Animals, women, and children were at one time all considered property in the western world. Women and children have had this position changed based on equality arguments. Animals have not.” Anti-cruelty laws (today, at least) are obviously not premised on the idea of protection of property--and even in 1887, it was recognized that such laws could not be justified on grounds that animals are property, as judge Arnold makes clear in Stephens v. State.

In that decision, judge Arnold notes that anti-cruelty statutes remedy the “defect” at common law in which animals had no rights beyond their status as someone’s property. He mentions the ability of animals to suffer as the basis of anti-cruelty laws, and that due to their ability to suffer, “deserve . . . kindly treatment.” Do you disagree with his assessment of the purpose and justification of anti-cruelty laws?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I did inadvertently cut out the primary claim of yours that I dispute: “Animals, women, and children were at one time all considered property in the western world. Women and children have had this position changed based on equality arguments. Animals have not.” Anti-cruelty laws (today, at least) are obviously not premised on the idea of protection of property--and even in 1887, it was recognized that such laws could not be justified on grounds that animals are property, as judge Arnold makes clear in Stephens v. State.

In that decision, judge Arnold notes that anti-cruelty statutes remedy the “defect” at common law in which animals had no rights beyond their status as someone’s property. He mentions the ability of animals to suffer as the basis of anti-cruelty laws, and that due to their ability to suffer, “deserve . . . kindly treatment.” Do you disagree with his assessment of the purpose and justification of anti-cruelty laws?
You think that animal rights and womens and childrens equality are the same case lines?


I do not believe that I said animal cruelty laws were premised on the protection of property. If you asked me what they were premised on I would likely respond protection of community, health and public safety. I was however pointing out that bestiality laws were decency laws that existed prior to the animal rights campaign. We do not base our morality concerning animals on the premise of equality with animals.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The author(s) of the paragraph at this webpage certainly do not deduce that humans share the biological adaptations that omnivorous mammals have and that distinguish humans from other apes.

I read this guy's website about a hundred years ago. At that time I didn't find any reference to any fact in it by which to conclude that humans have the biological adaptations that are common to omnivorous mammals and that distinguish humans from other apes. Here you have quoted where he uses the fallacy of false dilemma to conclude that humans are carnivores. It's only enlightening of his confusion and stupidity.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But, then, one would have to accept that using an animal for labor or food is also unacceptable as humans do so to fulfill temporary desires or need.
Yes.

I don't suppose you have any logical argument by which to conclude that it is moral to cause another creature to suffer and die merely to satisfy one's momentary and non-essential desires, do you?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
The author(s) of the paragraph at this webpage certainly do not deduce that humans share the biological adaptations that omnivorous mammals have and that distinguish humans from other apes.

I read this guy's website about a hundred years ago. At that time I didn't find any reference to any fact in it by which to conclude that humans have the biological adaptations that are common to omnivorous mammals and that distinguish humans from other apes. Here you have quoted where he uses the fallacy of false dilemma to conclude that humans are carnivores. It's only enlightening of his confusion and stupidity.
Perhaps, you don't understand omnivores?

https://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

This might be a good starting point.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You think that animal rights and womens and childrens equality are the same case lines?
What's a "case line"?

What's the "case line" in which children have been held to have equal rights as adults?

I do not believe that I said animal cruelty laws were premised on the protection of property. If you asked me what they were premised on I would likely respond protection of community, health and public safety.
Apparently you think judge Arnold (and many others) have just missed the whole point of anti-cruelty laws.

Every state now (as of just last year) has felony anti-cruelty laws. A recent case--I think in Texas--involved a man who beat his dog to death with a broom stick because the dog peed in the house. Explain how his beating his dog to death threatened community health and public safety.

Why aren't anti-cruelty laws grouped along with community health or public safety laws?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What's a "case line"?

What's the "case line" in which children have been held to have equal rights as adults?

Apparently you think judge Arnold (and many others) have just missed the whole point of anti-cruelty laws.

Every state now (as of just last year) has felony anti-cruelty laws. A recent case--I think in Texas--involved a man who beat his dog to death with a broom stick because the dog peed in the house. Explain how his beating his dog to death threatened community health and public safety.

Why aren't anti-cruelty laws grouped along with community health or public safety laws?
They are in some respects grouped with community health and public safety. Look at laws that regulate zoos, look at laws that regulate slaughter... Do you think that animal welfare does not or has not used public safety and health as reasoning?

A case line is a line of reasoning developed of several cases. Reading these cases that you keep citing it should be apparent how the courts use reasoning in past cases to help them come to a decision in specific cases. For instance, if I am not mistaken animal cruelty cases were used in some of the first child welfare cases. However, laws and reasoning seperated at that point. If you look at the history of the laws, the history of the ongoings involved in those cases and laws you will find that the reasoning for women's and children's rights differed substantially from animal welfare.
 
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