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Meat-Eating vs. Bestiality

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I also contend that if you (or anyone else) wish to argue that it is OK for humans to eat the amount and type of animal matter that other apes do, I have no problem with that. I encourage you to eat especially lots of mosquitoes and roaches. It's the cruelty to intelligent, sensitive mammals, birds and fish that is the obvious perversion, ...
So, it's okay for humans to eat meat, just so long as it's the kind and amount that other apes do? "I have no problem with that," you said.

So--great apes not only eat insects, but a variety of monkeys, bush babies and other mammals, birds and reptiles, including leftover kills of other animals, if they can. They can hunt, but humans can't hunt or raise their own to fulfill what you just admitted is acceptable to you?

Oh, and you make a distinction between insects and the like, and vertebrates like mammals and birds and fish (and reptiles, and amphibians). It’s okay to eat insects, but not vertebrates, because that's a "perversion," even though other great apes do so. ALL vertebrates are "intelligent, sensitive," but insects apparently deserve no such consideration.

Really? Such an interesting line between what’s okay and not okay to eat. Clearly, the basis of your distinction is not the presence/absence of a central nervous system, because insects have central nervous systems, too. There is even evidence that some insects can recognize individuals (both of their own kind, and even humans who are caretakers or pain-givers in laboratory settings). Isn’t that evidence of sentience?

So insects are okay to eat? Your example of mosquitoes is of course ridiculous—they are too hard to catch for the return of energy and nutrients in most cases. But is it okay to swat them to prevent getting disease, and a painful bite, though?

In many areas around the globe, insects—ants, roaches, beetles, termites, grasshoppers, etc., and their larval forms—are already a significant part of the human diet—certainly not in the West, but in Africa, Central and South America, among Australian Aborigines, throughout Asia. Why do these eat insects? To supplement their mostly vegetable diets with a little protein, etc. The same reason that they include meat in their diet when they can get it: it is a rich source of proteins and fats that can only be found in a few plants, many of which do not grow or grow well in their areas, and rarely are accessible year-round. Those people shouldn't eat meat, apparently. Except for insects; insects are okay to eat.

Very curious reasoning, to me.

But, if insects are okay, what’s related to insects? Arthropods, such as shrimp, crabs, lobsters, and so on. If it’s okay to eat insects, is it okay these other arthropods? Why not mollusks, which are also not vertebrates: clams, squid, octopi, and so on? Or are some of these “sentient” (as there is considerable evidence for) and therefore off limits, too? How do you decide which deserves protection and which doesn't? Your distinction that consumption of vertebrates are an "obvious perversion" is not so obvious...in fact, it smacks of an inconsistent application of values, or of values that are simply based in emotion, and not in logic.

Edit: Bonus question: on what basis should the limits of what humans eat be based on what other apes eat? That sounds VERY arbitrary to me.
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So--great apes not only eat insects, but a variety of monkeys, bush babies and other mammals, birds and reptiles, including leftover kills of other animals, if they can.
It isn't even close to true that the great apes kill, scavenge and eat all animals that they can.

Bonobo chimps, who are humans’ most closely related living hominid, eat a diet that is essentially 0% animal matter, as do gorillas and orangutans.

If you were to acquaint yourself with the evidence relating to the diet of P. troglodytes, you would discover that insects make up a larger percentage of the animal matter they eat than mammals do. Their chasing, killing and “eating” of monkeys, for instance, seems to be an activity related social power--males give meat to females in order to mate with them. Jane Goodall notes that the chimps don’t actually eat this flesh, but make a “wadge” with it by wrapping it in a leaf, and sort of suck the juice. The percentage of calories that chimps obtain from “eating” mammals is negligible. If humans did likewise, I would have no little complaint.

Oh, and you make a distinction between insects and the like, and vertebrates like mammals and birds and fish (and reptiles, and amphibians). It’s okay to eat insects, but not vertebrates, because that's a "perversion,"
It's quite amazing how confused you have gotten and how little you seem to understand from a brief, simple and clearly written post. It is the cruelty that humans perpetrate upon intelligent and sensitive animals that is the human perversion. Many (perhaps most) of these animals would be your friend and companion for life, if you weren't so busy and intent on being cruel to them and indifferent to the suffering that results from your actions of using them to satisfy your perverse desires of having their bodies a few seconds in your mouth.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Clearly, I don't condone the suffering of animals.
How do you get the animal in your mouth for a few seconds without causing him/her to suffer, and taking away from him/her any possibility of having any (future) pleasant experience on this earth?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
It isn't even close to true that the great apes kill, scavenge and eat all animals that they can.

Bonobo chimps, who are humans’ most closely related living hominid, eat a diet that is essentially 0% animal matter, as do gorillas and orangutans.

If you were to acquaint yourself with the evidence relating to the diet of P. troglodytes, you would discover that insects make up a larger percentage of the animal matter they eat than mammals do. Their chasing, killing and “eating” of monkeys, for instance, seems to be an activity related social power--males give meat to females in order to mate with them. Jane Goodall notes that the chimps don’t actually eat this flesh, but make a “wadge” with it by wrapping it in a leaf, and sort of suck the juice. The percentage of calories that chimps obtain from “eating” mammals is negligible. If humans did likewise, I would have no little complaint.

It's quite amazing how confused you have gotten and how little you seem to understand from a brief, simple and clearly written post. It is the cruelty that humans perpetrate upon intelligent and sensitive animals that is the human perversion. Many (perhaps most) of these animals would be your friend and companion for life, if you weren't so busy and intent on being cruel to them and indifferent to the suffering that results from your actions of using them to satisfy your perverse desires of having their bodies a few seconds in your mouth.
thank you for your deep and penetrating response to my several different points.:rolleyes:
Oh, yeah....you didn't respond to my points, did you? You again cherry-picked a couple of things you want to use as a springboard to repeat your unvalidated assertions yet again.
You're inconsistent: EAT NO MEAT!
Oh, wait, insects are okay to eat, and as long as it's close to 0 percent, it's okay to eat vertebrate meat, too...but, oh, wait, did I really say that?...I MEANT that...We have to use WHAT OTHER SPECIES EAT as the standard for what is appropriate for humans, because humans are perverted because most of them, over millions of years, have eaten meat on a regular basis, but "now we don't need to, so we we shouldn't, so people who do are perverts." Boy, that makes lots of sense.:rolleyes:

What about eating those relatives of insects that I mentioned, which you implied are non-sentient because, apparently, only vertebrates are thinking and feeling? What about cultured meat? Oh no, ignore those because responding to those would show the inconsistency of your reasoning.

And, yes I've read Goodall's descriptions. And many other researchers' descriptions. I've also watched videos of how they hunt and how they eat. You might want to check: in the last year, hunting and meat eating among bonobos has been documented. There's apparently many different ways that apes eat meat. But your reasoning that humans should only eat meat at the level of our great ape kin has no basis, except to further your anti-meat agenda.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Literally 3% of their diet is meat.
While I am sure this varies, the simple fact remains that they eat meat...they are classified as omnivores. Omnivores can eat and process meat and plants...they lack specialization for processing either. Apes are omnivores. What science are you using that denies this?

While there may be exceptions, great apes are considered omnivores.

You have sources that suggest otherwise?

You have logic that suggests otherwise?

I am all ears.

Apes are omnivores. Humans are apes. Humans are omnivores.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
While I am sure this varies, the simple fact remains that they eat meat...they are classified as omnivores. Omnivores can eat and process meat and plants...they lack specialization for processing either. Apes are omnivores. What science are you using that denies this?

While there may be exceptions, great apes are considered omnivores.

You have sources that suggest otherwise?

You have logic that suggests otherwise?

I am all ears.

Apes are omnivores. Humans are apes. Humans are omnivores.
First of all, please tell me where I denied that apes are omnivores (more specifically, frugivores). My comment's intention was that just because they eat meat (and only scarcely) doesn't mean that we are supposed to do the same. Just because we *can* eat something doesn't mean we should. Fyi, even herbivores can eat meat. Does that make them herbivores?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
First of all, please tell me where I denied that apes are omnivores (more specifically, frugivores). My comment's intention was that just because they eat meat (and only scarcely) doesn't mean that we are supposed to do the same. Just because we *can* eat something doesn't mean we should. Fyi, even herbivores can eat meat. Does that make them herbivores?
Which is why we classify them based on the specialization. Apes lack the specialization of either carnivores or herbivores, hence they are omnivores.

However I agree that this is a different conversation than whether people should eat meat. Not sure who brought it up, but I thought I would make it very clear, if we are to use the terms apes are omnivores.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Which is why we classify them based on the specialization. Apes lack the specialization of either carnivores or herbivores, hence they are omnivores.

However I agree that this is a different conversation than whether people should eat meat. Not sure who brought it up, but I thought I would make it very clear, if we are to use the terms apes are omnivores.
You missed my point. Just because we can eat something doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy for us.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I ain't no monkey :rage:
I didn't say that you were SG.

I said that Humans are apes.

this is a classification that is all. Humans are also people, humans are things, humans are breathers, humans are thinkers... we can classify stuff in all sorts of different ways. One of the ways that humans are classified is as apes.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I didn't say that you were SG.

I said that Humans are apes.

this is a classification that is all. Humans are also people, humans are things, humans are breathers, humans are thinkers... we can classify stuff in all sorts of different ways. One of the ways that humans are classified is as apes.

I ain't not people :rage:

Just kidding :p
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
For those who think what modern chimps and other great apes eat is relevant, here's links to some literature that suggests that the human linage began eating meat in significant quantities starting perhaps several million years ago, and for at least a million years, the quite varied human diet has included a substantial proportion of calories from meat's protein and fat. This of course has led to questions about how much meat should be in the diet--several of these sources point out that modern processed foods and a sedentary lifestyle much more than meat in the diet is what contributes to modern health problems. Some of these are popular articles, but mention or link to academic articles, while others are peer-reviewed or the product of scientists or organizations interested in this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus see the section on diet.

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-erectus

http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo/homo_4.htm see the section on subsistence patterns

http://www.livescience.com/41048-facts-about-homo-erectus.html

http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Homo_sapiens/ see the section on food habits

http://www.transformationinstitute.org/Assets/WhatDidOurAncestorsEat.pdf

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...diet-early-hominids-ate-just-about-everything

http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1g.shtml concerning the proportion of meat in human ancestor and modern human hunter-gatherer diets

http://easacademy.org/research-news/article/paleo-diet

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/3/665.full proportion of meat in early diets, as well as discussion of modern diet

http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Meat Paradox EJCN.pdf proportion of meat and health issues, especially cardio-vascular

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/foodfeatures/evolution-of-diet/
 
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