Meat-Eating vs. Bestiality

[Nous]

Oh, yeah....you didn't respond to my points

Directly in response to your false claim about chimpanzees killing and eating mammals "if they can," I noted: "It isn't even close to true that the great apes kill, scavenge and eat all animals that they can."

Why don't you try responding to something I've actually posted, rather than fabricating junk that I didn't say and didn't imply? Requires too much honesty?

 

[Nous]

apes ARE omnivores

Go right ahead and deduce from the evidence that gorillas are omnivores.

 

[Nous]

Apes knuckle walk.
Humans are apes
Humans knuckle walk.

Have you noticed that humans are biologically adapted to walking upright, in contrast to other apes?

 

[Nous]

here's links to some literature that suggests that the human linage began eating meat in significant quantities starting perhaps several million years ago

Quote all of the evidence presented in the peer-reviewed literature by which to conclude that human ancestors "began eating meat in significant quantities . . . several million years ago."

 

[Curious George]

Go right ahead and deduce from the evidence that gorillas are omnivores.

Is it now your contention that gorillas eat no animals, including insects?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Quote all of the evidence presented in the peer-reviewed literature by which to conclude that human ancestors "began eating meat in significant quantities . . . several million years ago."

Try reading what I linked to. And, how about you at least link to whatever literature you have that says that the human linage and humans have NEVER eaten meat in quantities greater than two or three percent until recent modern "perverted" society did so. Show or link to the evidence that says that humans and prehumans have never eaten meat in the amount estimated by researchers--which is about 50 percent of the diet, as demonstrated in the sources I linked to.

You keep insisting that it's the case that humans don't naturally eat meat, but the only things you've ever posted don't even support your position that people should not use animals or eat meat--the sources I link to dispute that assertion, so what's your evidence? Your insistence on saying that what humans should eat should be based on what chimps and other great apes eat is absurd: we aren't them, and they aren't us. So please link to the evidence that supports your extremist position.

 

[Nous]

Is it now your contention that gorillas eat no animals, including insects?

Gorillas do not seek out insects to eat. Insects do not constitute even a discernible percentage of gorillas' calories!

Obviously you cannot argue from the evidence that "apes are omnivores".

 

[Nous]

Try reading what I linked to. And, how about you at least link to whatever literature you have that says that the human linage and humans have NEVER eaten meat in quantities greater than two or three percent until recent modern "perverted" society did so. Show or link to the evidence that says that humans and prehumans have never eaten meat in the amount estimated by researchers--which is about 50 percent of the diet, as demonstrated in the sources I linked to.

You keep insisting that it's the case that humans don't naturally eat meat, but the only things you've ever posted don't even support your position that people should not use animals or eat meat--the sources I link to dispute that assertion, so what's your evidence? Your insistence on saying that what humans should eat should be based on what chimps and other great apes eat is absurd: we aren't them, and they aren't us. So please link to the evidence that supports your extremist position.

So you can't quote any evidence presented in the peer-reviewed literature by which to conclude that human ancestors "began eating meat in significant quantities . . . several million years ago"?

What is your problem with just being honest about what you've read or what someone else has said? I believe you would feel less frustrated and less confused if you were to just be honest about what you've read or what someone else has said.

 

[Curious George]

Gorillas do not seek out insects to eat. Insects do not constitute even a discernible percentage of gorillas' calories!

Obviously you cannot argue from the evidence that "apes are omnivores".

Lol, define "seek out." Apes are omnivores.

 

[Nous]

Apes are omnivores.

Prove it.

 

[Nous]

Diet

Gorillas are herbivores and eat leaves, shoots, roots, vines and fruits.

http://www.defenders.org/gorilla/basic-facts

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Here's a site that provides citations on both sides--or more properly, all sides--of this argument. Citing a great deal of the-peer-reviewed literature. I'd suggest reading it, and then reading the various sources it cites. http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml

More specifically, this page addresses the question of how the diets of the great apes have been and should be categorized. http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2a.shtml

Here's a way-too-long excerpt:

"Vegetarian" apes: a misconception of the past

First, as mentioned above, the idea that apes (or primates in general) are strict vegetarians in the normal human sense of the word is a misconception of the past. This point is clarified in Sussman [1987, pp. 166, 168]:



In fact, most species of primate are omnivorous (see Harding [1981]) and omnivory should be considered an evolutionarily conservative and generalized trait among primates. Primates evolved from insectivores....
Thus, omnivorous primates are mainly frugivorous and, depending upon body size, obtain most of their protein from insects and leaves. In all large, omnivorous, nonhuman primates, animal protein is a very small but presumably necessary component of the diet.



In the above, the term omnivore has the usual definition; e.g., from Milton [1987, "By definition, an omnivore is any animal that takes food from more than one trophic level. Most mammals are in fact omnivorous...". ["Trophic" refers to the different levels of the food chain.] Note that some experts use a different, more precise definition for the term omnivore, and disagree that mammals are omnivores--instead they suggest using the term faunivore for animals that regularly include fauna (other animals) in

Insect food

Regarding consumption of animal foods by primates, Hamilton and Busse [1978, note:


Many primate species once considered herbivorous are now known to expand the animal-matter portion of their diet to high levels when it is possible to do so...
Insect food is the predominant animal matter resource for primates. Insects are eaten by all extant apes, i.e., chimpanzees (e.g., Lawick-Goodall 1968), orang-utans (Gladikas-Brindamour1), gorillas (Fossey2), gibbons (Chivers 1972, R.L. Tilson3), and the siamang (Chivers 1972). The amount of insect matter in most primate diets is small, but may expand to more than 90% of the diet when insects are abundant and easily captured...

Preference for animal matter seems confirmed.



Note that the footnote numbers in the quote above refer only to Hamilton and Busse [1978].

Rationalizations about Dietary Deviations among Primates

Fit Food for Humanity does include notes on "Dietary Deviations Among the Primates" (pp. 11-12). It is interesting to note that most (but not all) of the references cited therein are encyclopedia entries--which usually do not reflect the latest research. The response in Fit Food for Humanity to the information that anthropoid apes are not strict vegetarians could be characterized as reliance on outdated information, rationalizations, and hand-waving.
Let's review some of the claims. ("FFH" is used as an abbreviation for Fit Food for Humanity in the material below.)



FFH: Gorillas are total vegetarians.
REPLY/COMMENTS: Both lowland and mountain gorillas consume insects, deliberately and indirectly, that is, on the vegetation they consume. The above quote from Hamilton and Busse [1978] cites Fossey (personal communication) regarding insect consumption by mountain gorillas. Tutin and Fernandez [1992] report consumption of insects by lowland gorillas in the Lope Reserve, Gabon: termites (whose remains were contained in 27.4% of gorilla feces) and weaver ants. Note that both insects mentioned are social insects; the consumption of social insects is efficient, as their concentration in nests allows easy harvesting of significant quantities. Of further interest here is the information that termites are known to contain significant quantities of vitamin B-12; see Wakayama et al. [1984] for details. Insectivory by mountain gorillas is discussed further later in this section.



FFH: Orangutans consume 2% insects; from p. 11: "the 2% digression may be seen as incidental and insignificant."
REPLY/COMMENTS: The quote from FFH does not specify whether the 2% is by weight or feeding time. Due to the difficulties in estimating weights of foods consumed, the 2% figure is probably by feeding time. Galdikas and Teleki [1981] report that orangutans at Tanjung Puting Reserve in Indonesia consumed 4% fauna (insects, eggs, meat) by feeding time. Kortlandt [1984] reports that (p. 133), "orang-utans eat honey, insects and, occasionally, bird's eggs, but no vertebrates."

For photos of a wild orangutan eating insects, see Knott [1998], p. 42; and for a photo of a wild orangutan eating a vertebrate--a rare event--see Knott [1998], p. 54.

The claim that insect consumption by orangutans is "insignificant" is clearly an unproven assumption. Insects and other animal foods are nutrient-dense foods: they supply far more calories and nutrients per gram of edible portion than the same weight of most of the plant foods commonly consumed (i.e., fruits other than oily fruits, and leaves).



FFH: The principal rationalizations given for termite and meat-eating by the chimps of Gombe Preserve are:

• The Gombe Preserve is small, and surrounded by human-populated areas.
  
  
  
• Chimps are "natural" imitators.
  
  

FFH then implies (assumes) that the behavior of the chimps of Gombe is in imitation of human behavior. Other writers (elsewhere, not in FFH) suggest that chimps eat meat in imitation of baboons.
REPLY/COMMENTS: The reality is that predation on vertebrates by chimpanzees is widespread throughout tropical Africa. Regarding chimpanzee predation, Teleki [1981, p. 305] reports that:



Moreover, predatory behavior involving vertebrate prey has now been recorded at all major study sites in equatorial Africa, from Uganda and Tanzania to Sierra Leone and Senegal. I expect that the known geographical distribution of predatory behavior will continue to expand as new chimpanzee projects are launched, though it is probable that some populations practice this behavior little or not at all, while others do so regularly and systematically (Teleki, 1975).


Note in the above remark that predation by chimps has been found at all major study sites, although it is possible that some groups of chimps hunt rarely, or not
Over and above the reality that predation and meat-eating by chimps is widespread, the claim that chimps do so in imitation of humans or baboons is both unproven and dubious. Chimps have lived in proximity to both humans and baboons for approximately 2-2.5 million years. This alone suggests that sufficient time has elapsed, in evolutionary terms, for chimps to adapt to such allegedly "imitation" behavior. Once evolutionary adaptation occurs, the "imitation" behavior would no longer be an imitation (supposing it were that, in some hazily conceived past)--it is natural. This reasoning suggests that the "imitation" argument is dubious at best. Another problem with the "imitation" argument is that imitative learning in captive chimps is common, but in wild chimpanzees it is rare; see Boesch and Tomasello [1998] for discussion on this point.

Chimp/Baboon Interaction. The interaction between baboons and chimps is quite interesting and serves to illuminate the shallow nature of the "imitation" argument. Teleki [1981, pp. 330-331] comments on:



...the anomalous nature of an interspecific relationship that includes play with baboons, consumption of baboons, and competition with baboons for at least one kind of prey...
[T]he Gombe chimpanzees removed 8% of the local baboon population in 1968-1969 (Teleki, 1973a) and 8-13% of the local colobus population in 1973-1974 (Busse, 1977). How is it possible, then, that the primates serving as prey to chimpanzees in Gombe National Park, and possibly also at other sites, have not developed more successful defensive tactics? Any answer other than the proposition that chimpanzees have only recently acquired predatory inclinations, for which there is no supportive evidence at all (Teleki, 1973a), would be welcome."



Note: The above quote is included to specifically inform readers that there is no evidence that predation by chimps is a "new" behavior, and that there is extensive, complex, baboon/chimp interaction.
Insect Consumption by Chimps is Universal. Kortlandt [1984] also discusses insect consumption by chimps (p. 133):



Chimpanzees, on the other hand, spend a remarkable amount of time, mental effort and tool use on searching out insects and feeding on them in every place where they have been intensively studied. Hladik and Viroben (1974) have shown that this insect food is nutritionally important in order to compensate for a deficiency of certain amino acids in the plant foods, even in the rich environment of the Gabon rain-forest.


GO TO NEXT PART OF ARTICLE

(Ape Diets: Myths, Realities, and Rationalizations, cont.)p. 93]:their diet.p. 761]at all.

http://www.defenders.org/gorilla/basic-facts

I'll just point out this is 1) not peer reviewed literature, and 2) this is an organization with an agenda, which might just affect how they will describe the diets of those species they wish to "defend.".
Beyond Veg is also not a peer-reviewed site, but it at least provides citations for its discussion.

 

[Nous]

Here's a site that provides citations on both sides--or more properly, all sides--of this argument. Citing a great deal of the-peer-reviewed literature. I'd suggest reading it, and then reading the various sources it cites. http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml

As I noted earlier, I read this guy's website a long time ago. As I recall, it's mostly junk. He definitely doesn't provide, quote or cite any peer-reviewed evidence that gorillas are omnivores or that insects constitute any significant portion of the calories that sustain gorillas.

As I recall, this guy has very troubled history with food, eating nothing but avocadoes and oranges for a year, or something like that.

So evidently you still can't quote any evidence presented in the peer-reviewed literature by which to conclude that human ancestors "began eating meat in significant quantities . . . several million years ago". I wonder how long it might take you to acknowledge that?

 

[Kirran]

Regardless of what we evolved to be able to digest, and what was necessary for us to eat for much of our history, many people now live in a society in which it is emphatically unnecessary to eat meat to live healthily. Society's inclination to eat meat causes suffering to animals, exacerbates climate change, severely weakens global food supplies thereby increasing malnutrition and starvation, contributes to the ongoing wave of antibiotic resistance and causes huge levels of deforestation and water shortages. Seeing as eating meat 1) causes these problems and 2) is not necessary, I don't see it as being morally acceptable (I withdraw this in cases where 2) does not apply). Therefore I can't really comment on the OP

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

As I noted earlier, I read this guy's website a long time ago. As I recall, it's mostly junk. He definitely doesn't provide, quote or cite any peer-reviewed evidence that gorillas are omnivores or that insects constitute any significant portion of the calories that sustain gorillas.

As I recall, this guy has very troubled history with food, eating nothing but avocadoes and oranges for a year, or something like that.

So evidently you still can't quote any evidence presented in the peer-reviewed literature by which to conclude that human ancestors "began eating meat in significant quantities . . . several million years ago". I wonder how long it might take you to acknowledge that?

As is your pattern: it doesn't agree with your position--deny it, insult it, ignore it. The peer reviewed evidence is there. You have not provided ANY peer-reviewed literature is support of your points.

The fact that other apes eat meat, even occasionally, negates your argument that they don't eat meat, and that you dismiss the quantity as "insignificant" is a value judgment that does not change the fact that it's clear that many of them enjoy eating meat, and do so when they can. That they are primarily fruit, nut and leaf eaters is not relevant to what humans can or should eat: we've evolved for about 7 million years since the last common ancestor, and the archaeological and anthropological evidence I've linked to shows that clearly, prehumans and humans have eaten lots of meat for a long time. That you can't/won't read and accept those sources is not my problem, it's yours.

So, where is your evidence, from the peer-reviewed literature, that humans haven't eaten much meat until recently, when this "perversion" of meat-eating began? I've provided links to my sources. Where's yours?

 

[Curious George]

As I noted earlier, I read this guy's website a long time ago. As I recall, it's mostly junk. He definitely doesn't provide, quote or cite any peer-reviewed evidence that gorillas are omnivores or that insects constitute any significant portion of the calories that sustain gorillas.

As I recall, this guy has very troubled history with food, eating nothing but avocadoes and oranges for a year, or something like that.

So evidently you still can't quote any evidence presented in the peer-reviewed literature by which to conclude that human ancestors "began eating meat in significant quantities . . . several million years ago". I wonder how long it might take you to acknowledge that?

Good grief, my friend. We eat animals, we have done so for a long time. Do we, in this current age, need to continue to eat them? That is a very different question. But you for unknown reasons, I would assume ethical ones, are very insistent on denying the simple fact that animals eat other animals. Here you go: Humans are animals. We and our closest relatives eat animals. If you want, I can probably find you evidence that Neanderthals ate animals as well. But cheers mate...if you don't want to read it all... it says we have been eating animals for many, many years. Chimps eat animals. Gorillas do indeed seem to search out insects. And, eating animals has played a critical part in our evolution. Any other requests?


The importance of evolutionary heritage is underlined by our anatomy and physiology. We have inherited from our proto-hominid ancestors the teeth and digestive system of an omnivore. Carbon isotope analysis of the fossil remains of our early ancestors confirms that they were indeed omnivores. Australopithecus africanus, for example, probably had a diet that was ≈75% fruit and leaves but also 25% meat. This conclusion is drawn from the fact that grasses, and the herbivores that feed on them, have more carbon-13 than do leaves or fruit. We know from their teeth that Australopithecines were not adapted to eat grass, so they must have acquired the carbon-13 from meat. Am J Clin Nutr September 2009 vol. 90 no. 3 707S-711S.(abstract).

Humans can consume quite a wide range of plants and animal foods and so are called omnivorous apes. Also, humans cannot tolerate continuous ingestion of monotonous foods irrespective of nutritional sufficiency. Although this behavior is conspicuous in humans, many primates other than humans also consume a variety of foods, including plants and animals such as insects. Chimpanzees and baboons, for example, even hunt small mammals. As a result of this feeding strategy, the primates are generally labeled as omnivores. Yoshikazu Ueno. How Do We Eat? Hypothesis of Foraging Strategy from the Viewpoint of Gustation in Primates. Primate Origins of Human Cognition and Behavior pp 104-111 (abstract).

Wild primates take most of the daily diet from plant sources, eating moderate to small amounts of animal source foods (ASF). Plant materials make up from 87% to >99% of the annual diet of great apes, the closest living relatives of modern humans.Katharine Milton.The Critical Role Played by Animal Source Foods in Human (Homo) EvolutionJ. Nutr. November 1, 2003 vol. 133 no. 11 3886S-3892S (But you really should read this one as it discusses how eating animals helped human evolution).

Without even the need to consider chimpanzees for supporting evidence, hominids are known through archaeological evidence to been have been eating meat since long before Homo sapiens arrived on the scene. Australopithecus, from around 2.5 to 3.7 million years ago, one of our ancestors, is known to have eaten some meat as determined by strontium-calcium ratios in bone and scanning electron microscope studies of teeth microwear [Walker 1996; Sillen 1992]. Homo habilis ate meat 1.8 million years ago as determined by the presence of hammerstone percussion marks and other stone tool cut marks on animal bones [Blumenschine 1992; Megarry 1995]. Meat-eating increased with Homo erectus beginning approximately 1.5 million years ago [Walker 1996]. Homo sapiens evolved approximately 100,000 to 200,000 years ago [Foley 1995; Groves 1993]; thus the human line had been eating meat by that time for already 3 million years. (http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/chimp-whop/chimp-whoppers-1a.shtml) Feel Free to check their sources.

Western lowland gorilla (Gorilla gorilla gorilla):
This subspecies consumes parts of at least 97 plant species. About 67% of their diet is fruit, 17% is leaves, seeds and stems and 3% is termites and caterpillars.
https://seaworld.org/en/animal-info/animal-infobooks/gorilla/diet-and-eating-habits/

Mountain gorilla (Gorilla beringei beringei):
This subspecies consumes parts of at least 142 plant species and only 3 types of fruit (there is hardly any fruit available due to the high altitude. About 86% of their diet is leaves, shoots, and stems, 7% is roots, 3% is flowers, 2% is fruit, and 2% ants, snails, and grubs. https://seaworld.org/en/animal-info/animal-infobooks/gorilla/diet-and-eating-habits/

Cross River gorilla (Gorilla gorilla diehli):
This subspecies is not as well studied as the other subspecies. However their diet has been studied through their fecal matter and is known to include fruit, leaves, stems, piths, and some invertebrates.https://seaworld.org/en/animal-info/animal-infobooks/gorilla/diet-and-eating-habits/

Evidence was obtained that Eastern lowland gorillas feed regularly on ants in the lowland forests of eastern Zaire. The six species of ants that may have been consumed by the gorillas were identified as Ponerinae, which possess a painful sting. Gorillas consumed the ants in both rainy and dry seasons, and fragments of ants were found in fecal samples from gorillas of all age-sex classes. Field signs indicated that the gorillas search intensively ants in primary and ancient secondary forests. Such searching may stimulate the gorillas to range through various types of vegetation and, thus, it may contribute to elongation of the distances that they travel daily.
Juichi YamagiwaAffiliated withPrimate Research Institute, Kyoto University, Ndunda MwanzaAffiliated withCentre de Recherches en Sciences Naturelles, Lwiro, D.S. Bukavu, Takakazu YumotoAffiliated withCollege of Liberal Arts, Kobe University, Tamaki MaruhashiAffiliated withDepartment of Human and Cultural Sciences, Musashi University. Ant eating by eastern lowland gorillas. Primates April 1991, Volume 32, Issue 2, pp 247-253.



.

 

[Nous]

Regardless of what we evolved to be able to digest, and what was necessary for us to eat for much of our history, many people now live in a society in which it is emphatically unnecessary to eat meat to live healthily. Society's inclination to eat meat causes suffering to animals, exacerbates climate change, severely weakens global food supplies thereby increasing malnutrition and starvation, contributes to the ongoing wave of antibiotic resistance and causes huge levels of deforestation and water shortages. Seeing as eating meat 1) causes these problems and 2) is not necessary, I don't see it as being morally acceptable (I withdraw this in cases where 2) does not apply). Therefore I can't really comment on the OP

Excellent, succinct post.

 

[Nous]

As is your pattern: it doesn't agree with your position--deny it, insult it, ignore it. The peer reviewed evidence is there. You have not provided ANY peer-reviewed literature is support of your points.

The fact that other apes eat meat, even occasionally, negates your argument that they don't eat meat, and that you dismiss the quantity as "insignificant" is a value judgment that does not change the fact that it's clear that many of them enjoy eating meat, and do so when they can. That they are primarily fruit, nut and leaf eaters is not relevant to what humans can or should eat: we've evolved for about 7 million years since the last common ancestor, and the archaeological and anthropological evidence I've linked to shows that clearly, prehumans and humans have eaten lots of meat for a long time. That you can't/won't read and accept those sources is not my problem, it's yours.

When or if you finish trying to blow down your own straw men, why don't you try quoting what I've said and responding to that?

So, where is your evidence, from the peer-reviewed literature, that humans haven't eaten much meat until recently, when this "perversion" of meat-eating began?

Unlike you, I haven't asserted any claims about what human ancestors ate millions of years ago. I've asked for you to substantiate from the peer-reviewed literature your claim that human ancestors ate "significant" quantities of meat "several million years ago". You haven't been able to present any such evidence (because, of course, your claims are false).

 

[Nous]

Good grief, my friend. We eat animals, we have done so for a long time. Do we, in this current age, need to continue to eat them? That is a very different question.

That's correct. You can't morally or rationally justify humans raising and eating animals, can you?

But you for unknown reasons, I would assume ethical ones, are very insistent on denying the simple fact that animals eat other animals.

When or if you finish lying about what I've said, why don't you quote what I've said and actually respond to it?

We have inherited from our proto-hominid ancestors the teeth and digestive system of an omnivore.

Name all the other omnivores that have human-like teeth.

Humans can consume quite a wide range of plants and animal foods and so are called omnivorous apes.

Cows are also able to consume "animal foods"--in fact, cows on factory farms are often fed ground-up body parts of cows. So I guess that makes them omnivores, too?

Western lowland gorilla (Gorilla gorilla gorilla):
This subspecies consumes parts of at least 97 plant species. About 67% of their diet is fruit, 17% is leaves, seeds and stems and 3% is termites and caterpillars.
https://seaworld.org/en/animal-info/animal-infobooks/gorilla/diet-and-eating-habits/

Gorillas' consumption of insects is seasonal and depends on their location. Insects make up 0-3% of the diet of male gorillas: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...strategies/links/54f72b260cf2ccffe9daacf4.pdf

As I said, I (would) have no problem with humans eating the diet of apes in the wild. The perversion is the cruelty to intelligent, sensitive mammals, birds and fish that humans perpetrate, as well as the horrible effects on the environment and climate that results from the human perversion of eating animals.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

When or if you finish trying to blow down your own straw men, why don't you try quoting what I've said and responding to that?

Unlike you, I haven't asserted any claims about what human ancestors ate millions of years ago. I've asked for you to substantiate from the peer-reviewed literature your claim that human ancestors ate "significant" quantities of meat "several million years ago". You haven't been able to present any such evidence (because, of course, your claims are false).

See the links I provided, and @Curious George 's post 202. By the way, Curious George, thank you for posting those.

Your refusal to accept the evidence presented is not evidence that you are correct by the trick of not making any positive assertions--you have implied that my assertions are wrong; you are incorrect because there is valid, peer-reviewed evidence supporting my position. If you had evidence negating the evidence provided, I would suspect you would post it--which you haven't done.

You have asserted that eating meat is a perversion. "Perversion" means, "the action of turning aside from what is true or right; the diversion of something from its original and proper course, state, or meaning; corruption, distortion" according to the OED online.

On the other hand, the evidence I and others have provided show that it is widely accepted among anthropologists, archaeologists and nutritionists that pre-humans and humans have eaten meat in significant quantities for millions of years; meat eating by humans is therefore "true or right;" it is what humans have done for a long, long time. So when exactly did eating meat by humans or our genus Homo or Australopithicene ancestors become a "perversion?"

The question of whether eating meat is "the diversion of something from its original and proper course [or] state" is a value judgment about what is the "right, original, proper course, state." There are many sources of moral judgments. The argument that just because our ancient ancestors six or seven million years ago, and the species that are most closely related to us today, were/are mostly vegetarian does not mean humans eating meat over that time or today is a perversion. Evolution does not have moral value, at least in my understanding. Evolution to modern humans was made possible by eating meat and cooking both meat and vegetable matter. It is what made us. To call it a perversion is, well, unfounded in my book, and I'm being VERY polite about it.

So, I'll be glad to read any sources you have that demonstrate that humans haven't eaten significant quantities of meat as part of their diets for millions of years, that demonstrate that eating of meat by humans is a "perversion" of what humans "should" be eating. What are your sources for this? It's time you stop demanding evidence from others: we've provided it. It's time you start backing up your claims with evidence.