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Meat-Eating vs. Bestiality

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It is a settled fact that we are omnivores
Who "settled" it? And on what basis? Obviously not on the basis of evidence that humans share the biological adaptations that characterize omnivorous mammals.

Are meat-eaters any different morally than unrepentant child rapists, or unrepentant slave-owners? Meat-eaters, rapists and slave-owners merely cause others to suffer unnecessarily in order to satisfy their own perverted momentary desires. That's why no here has been able to morally (or rationally) justify humans stuffing their faces with animal flesh and products.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Who "settled" it? And on what basis? Obviously not on the basis of evidence that humans share the biological adaptations that characterize omnivorous mammals.

Are meat-eaters any different morally than unrepentant child rapists, or unrepentant slave-owners? Meat-eaters, rapists and slave-owners merely cause others to suffer unnecessarily in order to satisfy their own perverted momentary desires. That's why no here has been able to morally (or rationally) justify humans stuffing their faces with animal flesh and products.
Again, I will gladly jump to morality once you accept the biological facts.

Until then, there is not much room for science deniers. Sort of like going roundabout with a yec.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Lol. Nope. We eat meat. Have for quite some time. It is a settled fact that we are omnivores, if the term is to be used at all.
I really don't understand what's the point of this argument. Yes, humans ate meat because meat can provide a lot of calories, and if you are living in a era where there were no supermarkets, I'd say most people would eat whatever they found. What does this prove? Herbivores also eat meat when they need it, no big deal.
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Again, I will gladly jump to morality once you accept the biological facts.

Until then, there is not much room for science deniers. Sort of like going roundabout with a yec.
Yes, we can eat meat, just like we can eat a lot of other things. Neither Nous nor I deny this. Just because we *can* eat meat, doesn't mean it is *healthy* for us.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've tried different diets over the years, and have done more research on the environmental impact of food than I care to admit. I've experimented with different diets, including many years as a vegetarian.

Personally, I'm pretty convinced that permacultures are the way to go for food. They mimic nature to the extent that it's possible, rather than trying to separate everything as big agriculture tends to do. That means, for example, raising cows on natural pastures and using rotating methods to optimize usage of the grass, and keeping things mostly self-contained. Or having an orchard and using goats as your natural lawnmowers and chickens as your natural pest control around the trees, and then getting meat or eggs or milk from those animals as well. These methods tend to be healthy for the soil and water, and humane to the animals until they are killed with as little pain as possible. Combine that with highly regulated wild-caught fish and cultivated bivalves and things like that from the ocean, emphasizing sustainability.

I think for optimizing human nutrition and environmental impact, those combined methods are superior to even vegetarianism, which still tries to separate and control nature more than a permaculture does. Vegetarianism is not death free; it still kills countless bugs with organic or synthetic pesticides, kills mice and other creatures in the harvesting process, and fertilizers drain into rivers and into oceans to create deadzones for fish. A vegetarian diet is also low in EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids for the human body, and usually benefits from supplementation in a few other areas.

With that in mind, using animals for food as respectfully as possible has an actual benefit. We get protein without high carbs and plant toxins, we can get a great source of EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids, we minimize the need for fertilizer and artificial pest control, we balance the symbiotic relationship of plants and animals in farming, and we improve soil quality compared to fields of grain.

Compared to that, bestiality serves no purpose other than odd sexual gratification for the human, along with a mostly unknown psychological impact on the animal, and that in some cases would clearly result in suffering for the animal. I think having laws to protect animals are important, even if we do sometimes kill them humanely for food or use them in a symbiotic farming method.

Factory farms are ethically deplorable. They're like the Holocaust for animals.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I've tried different diets over the years, and have done more research on the environmental impact of food than I care to admit. I've experimented with different diets, including many years as a vegetarian.

Personally, I'm pretty convinced that permacultures are the way to go for food. They mimic nature to the extent that it's possible, rather than trying to separate everything as big agriculture tends to do. That means, for example, raising cows on natural pastures and using rotating methods to optimize usage of the grass, and keeping things mostly self-contained. Or having an orchard and using goats as your natural lawnmowers and chickens as your natural pest control around the trees, and then getting meat or eggs or milk from those animals as well. These methods tend to be healthy for the soil and water, and humane to the animals until they are killed with as little pain as possible. Combine that with highly regulated wild-caught fish and cultivated bivalves and things like that from the ocean, emphasizing sustainability.

I think for optimizing human nutrition and environmental impact, those combined methods are superior to even vegetarianism, which still tries to separate and control nature more than a permaculture does. Vegetarianism is not death free; it still kills countless bugs with organic or synthetic pesticides, kills mice and other creatures in the harvesting process, and fertilizers drain into rivers and into oceans to create deadzones for fish. A vegetarian diet is also low in EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids for the human body, and usually benefits from supplementation in a few other areas.

With that in mind, using animals for food as respectfully as possible has an actual benefit. We get protein without high carbs and plant toxins, we can get a great source of EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids, we minimize the need for fertilizer and artificial pest control, we balance the symbiotic relationship of plants and animals in farming, and we improve soil quality compared to fields of grain.

Compared to that, bestiality serves no purpose other than odd sexual gratification for the human, along with a mostly unknown psychological impact on the animal, and that in some cases would clearly result in suffering for the animal. I think having laws to protect animals are important, even if we do sometimes kill them humanely for food or use them in a symbiotic farming method.

Factory farms are ethically deplorable. They're like the Holocaust for animals.

A vegetarian growing their food via permaculture? :)
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A vegetarian growing their food via permaculture? :)
Sure, you could avoid meat and stick to the eggs and milk of the animals used in the process.

I'm not convinced you'd get optimal nutrition over generations, particularly when it comes to EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids. And many people in the world, possibly the majority, have some degree of lactose intolerance.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Sure, you could avoid meat and stick to the eggs and milk of the animals used in the process.

I'm not convinced you'd get optimal nutrition over generations, particularly when it comes to EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids. And many people in the world, possibly the majority, have some degree of lactose intolerance.

I don't do eggs either, personally. R.e. lactose intolerance, true, some supplements might be needed for some people - fortunately, these are available!

I'm not convinced there is one 'optimal diet', humans are hugely adaptable, and hunter-gatherer communities' diets vary hugely. I think a lacto-vegetarian diet is entirely good enough to ensure full health.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't do eggs either, personally. R.e. lactose intolerance, true, some supplements might be needed for some people - fortunately, these are available!

I'm not convinced there is one 'optimal diet', humans are hugely adaptable, and hunter-gatherer communities' diets vary hugely. I think a lacto-vegetarian diet is entirely good enough to ensure full health.
I think we need a lot more evidence that, say, humans can go five generations with optimal health with no dietary source of EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acid, and relying strictly on the body's poor ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.

I agree that there is no single optimal diet. Hunter gatherer diets did vary hugely, although all of them that I'm aware of did include some meat.

Plus, if humans don't eat any fish or bivalves, then all of the caloric content that currently comes from oceans (2/3rds of the planet surface area) will have to be done on land (1/3rd of the surface area), which will further stress the already questionable ability of our soil and water systems to support our food system. Sustainable fishing methods, like what is currently used in Alaskan waters, allow for a continued source of healthy calories without needing fertilizers, pest control, and land usage.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Well many Indians have been vegetarian for many generations.

And I think that'll be more than compensated for by the massive decrease in burden on the land if 99% of people stopped eating meat (trophic levels and all).
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well many Indians have been vegetarian for many generations.
Documented with a sufficient sample size, and studied?

About a third of India is vegetarian; the majority are not. I wonder what the percentage is of people who had strictly vegetarian parents for five generations or more. And is the health of this sample of people very good overall, in terms of both physical and mental ability?

Despite having a climate that is optimized for growing plants, with plenty of rainfall, India currently has one of the higher rates of malnutrition in the world while eating among the lowest amount of meat in the world. There are a lot of factors involved but I'd be hesitant to use anecdotal reports from India as an example of optimal nutrition.

There's a pretty solid amount of evidence that dietary sources of DHA omega 3 fatty acid in the hunter gatherer diet played a key role in developing the over-sized brain seen in our species. DHA is a big component of the dry weight of our brain, and virtually all human consumption of it comes from fish, bivalves, grass-fed meats (especially the brain of the animal, for hunter-gatherers), and chicken eggs from chickens that are fed flax seed. The only semi-realistic lacto ovo vegetarian source of it is a huge amount of algae concentrated down into supplement form.

Women pass on DHA to their babies, helping to grow their brains. The body can also convert ALA omega 3 fatty acid (found in some plant sources, like flax seed) to DHA omega 3 fatty acids, but only a small fraction is converted, and with a high degree of variability. Hence why dietary sources of it are so helpful, and considered an important part of our evolutionary history. When a person goes vegetarian in their life, they at least received a lot of DHA from their mother, usually. But when you have several generations in a row of zero dietary source of DHA, then the body is 100% reliant on the body's ALA to DHA conversion process, generation after generation. I'd like to see more evidence that almost all people can do that with no health consequences; absolutely no impairment to intelligence or mood.

Personally, my mood and strength increased a lot when I switched from a vegetarian diet to one that includes moderate amounts grass-fed beef, organic chicken, free range eggs, Alaskan wild-caught fish, and mussels along with my vegetables and fruit, and a reduction in grains.

And I think that'll be more than compensated for by the massive decrease in burden on the land if 99% of people stopped eating meat (trophic levels and all).
Among the significant problems to solve with growing plants are 1) how to fertilize them and 2) how to keep pests away.

And big problems to solve with raising animals are: 1) how to feed them and 2) what to do with the waste.

Nature, and farms that mimic nature, largely avoid those problems. Plants feed the animals, and animals fertilize the plants and eat the pests that attack them.

So let's take an example of a permaculture orchard. There's a place out in California I have in mind that grows trees for fruits and olive oil, maintains grasslands, and also raises chickens, goats, and other animals. They routinely let in chickens and goats into their orchid, where the chickens peck away at the ground to get rid of bugs that would otherwise harm the trees, and goats eat the grass around the trees that would otherwise have to be mowed. The farm then sells all types of plant and animal products throughout the seasons of the year, and is highly diverse.

A lacto ovo vegetarian version of that would be a lot less economically sustainable and perhaps less environmentally sustainable. If they did everything they do in that example, but sell none of the animal products, and don't harvest any animal meat or eggs or milk, then that same amount of land only offers calories from the trees, and only derives income from the trees, and that entire set of animals is just strictly a cost to the farmer, and those animals will eventually die off over time anyway. The prices of the fruits and olive oil would have to go way, way up, and they'd need to use far more land in order to produce enough calories to feed the same number of people. And if they didn't use animals at all, even for pest control, fertilization, and grass mowing, and therefore in this case likely not being a permaculture, then they'd have to do all of those services for the trees in other ways, with any environmental and economic consequences from that.

...

Another example would be cultivation of mussels, which spend their adult lives immobile and have no actual brains. People put ropes into the water, mussels grow on them, and then they harvest and sell them. It actually improves water quality unlike horrible fish farms, is considered sustainable, and doesn't need to use up any land. Mussels are a great source of EPA and DHA omega 3 fatty acids, and an absolutely phenomenal source of vitamin b12. In contrast, studies routinely show that strict lacto ovo vegetarians tend to have vitamin b12 deficiencies.

Now, we could eat those brainless sustainable mussels for all the lean protein, EPA and DHA, and vitamin b12 they contain, without using any land for it. Or we could not, and get those calories from a plant farm instead. And if we do that, it's not likely that we're really killing fewer animals. Countless bugs die from natural and synthetic pesticides used to keep plants safe on farms, and certain types of plants result in a deaths of mice and snakes when harvested, like one estimate of up to 100 mice per hectare of wheat. Fertilizers often drain into rivers and oceans and kill fish. So in that scenario we still kill small animals, but have to supplement vitamin b12, use more land, and have possible health issues from no dietary DHA.

...

Another example would be semiarid grasslands. They're not the best place for growing most fruits and vegetables, but they're ideal for raising cows on natural grasses, with modern rotational grazing. A variety of omnivorous permacultures are more adaptable to environmental conditions than purely vegetarian farms.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
What is the objective, logical basis for considering it acceptable to slaughter animals without their consent as opposed to engaging in bestiality?

I would state that there is no logic being used. The justification you're likely to get from people when you boil it down using logical lines of questioning is "I want it". How do I know this? I have personally experienced it time and time again.

I am vegan, and when I get into debates with people who eat meat, many come into the debate with near absolute certainty that they are "right", entitled, and are bound to get me to accept their way of thinking on things. But once I present the evidence, the accounts of abuse, environmental damage, emotional stress of the employees in the business, the greed and corruption, the case for empathy toward the animals involved (what if it were you?)... as I head them off at every pass and knock their arguments down handily and easily... as they find themselves without a pillar to stay standing on... then they turn to "I like bacon because it tastes good!" Unfortunately I am not kidding - nor exaggerating the desperation here. That is literally what has eventually come out on so many occasions. And that is why I state that no logic is being used in the justifications.

"Eating meat" in and of itself is not wrong. But when you are not the one who procured the meal and yet are the one to partake, that is when exploitation starts to creep in. The further you are removed, the more you would deplore the things that went on to get you that cheeseburger, that omelette, or even that glass of milk.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Ever seen a slaughterhouse video? 95% of all farms in America are like that. If you think that the meat industry runs on happy animals that lead happy lives and are slaughtered "humanely" (which btw, does not exist), then you should do more research. This isn't a call to emotional manipulation, but a call to rational thinking.

With all due respect, I can't trust your claims that 95% of all farms in America support inhumane treatment of animals until you provide links to sources.

And no. This is indeed an emotional appeal if you object to eating non human animals.

I've done my research and accept certain methods of killing animals (for food) to be humane or at least, as humane as can possibly be. The methods that I would condone are instantaneous.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
The methods that I would condone are instantaneous.

With the demand, however, there will always be those willing to do the work quickly and recklessly in order to save time/money. There's no way around it. So, to buy into the demand is to propagate not only what you consider "humane", but rather remaining a share of the meat-consumers at large. The "humane" methods you probably condone (though I am quite sure you don't know exactly what does go on, and I can assure you that corners are cut where corners can be cut in ANY individual/company who's in the business of killing animals - there may be a super-small minority who do "more than the minimum" to get their stamp of "cage-free" or "pasture-raised", etc.) still involve letting the animal's heart do the work of pumping the majority of the blood out of the body, no matter what the initial method of putting the animal "out" is. In other words, the animal is ALWAYS alive for more than just the final blow. ALWAYS. "Instantaneous?" Try again.

It ends up being a horror show no matter how you slice it. Which is why you don't do the work yourself.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Comparing a sapient being to a barnyard animal is beyond asinine.
Once you start comparing human beings to poultry, it's probably time to bow out of the debate.

While I agree that comparing a child of your own species importance to that of another animal is certainly not an "equal" comparison - on the whole would you say that, taken from a more objective, or outside perspective, humans are "better" than, say, chickens? Are we "better" than dogs? "Better" than lions? Bears? Gorillas? I'd argue it is asinine to state, definitively, that you are "better" than any animal. We are all simply "different". You couldn't survive a northern winter without clothes on your back. You couldn't defeat a lion, bear, or gorilla without using a man-made implement, and augmenting your "strength". And yet you are "better?" I don't see it. Maybe you know something about humans that I don't.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
While I agree that comparing a child of your own species importance to that of another animal is certainly not an "equal" comparison - on the whole would you say that, taken from a more objective, or outside perspective, humans are "better" than, say, chickens? Are we "better" than dogs? "Better" than lions? Bears? Gorillas? I'd argue it is asinine to state, definitively, that you are "better" than any animal. We are all simply "different". You couldn't survive a northern winter without clothes on your back. You couldn't defeat a lion, bear, or gorilla without using a man-made implement, and augmenting your "strength". And yet you are "better?" I don't see it. Maybe you know something about humans that I don't.

Yes. I believe humans to be superior to non-sapient beings. Moving on...
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
With the demand, however, there will always be those willing to do the work quickly and recklessly in order to save time/money. There's no way around it. So, to buy into the demand is to propagate not only what you consider "humane", but rather remaining a share of the meat-consumers at large. The "humane" methods you probably condone (though I am quite sure you don't know exactly what does go on, and I can assure you that corners are cut where corners can be cut in ANY individual/company who's in the business of killing animals - there may be a super-small minority who do "more than the minimum" to get their stamp of "cage-free" or "pasture-raised", etc.) still involve letting the animal's heart do the work of pumping the majority of the blood out of the body, no matter what the initial method of putting the animal "out" is. In other words, the animal is ALWAYS alive for more than just the final blow. ALWAYS. "Instantaneous?" Try again.

It ends up being a horror show no matter how you slice it. Which is why you don't do the work yourself.

I don't do the work myself, because, it's not conducive to my lifestyle or necessary.

There's a difference between an animal being alive without pain and being alive and in pain during final moments.
 
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