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Meditation advice

Papoon

Active Member
Do you mean in Sufism, or Buddhism, or where exactly?

In western culture.

For the record, I chose the denomination Sufism in an offhand way when I registered, though I have some background in sufi study and practice. My remark was informed by meditation practice in a Buddhist context. In fact that advice was very similar to the advice given by Buddhist teachers with whom I studied for some years.

Perhaps since I do not classify myself with one word I should not post in any DIR, but it seemed reasonable to do so after decades of Buddhist practice.

That aside, what is your response to my advice ?
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
That aside, what is your response to my advice ?

I'm afraid I don't recognise your characterisation of meditation in a western Buddhist context. I've been involved in Buddhism in the UK since 1980, and have been involved with most of the Buddhist groups here at one time or another. I've also had experience of teaching meditation to beginners and leading day retreats, so I have a sense of what works, and how people approach meditation. I just haven't seen people approaching meditation in the way you described, "an ego trip about self improvement, discipline or obedience".
 
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Papoon

Active Member
I just haven't seen people approaching meditation in the way you described, "an ego trip about self improvement, discipline or obedience".

Well, I have. And teachers I have sat with and talked with have. It Iis also regularly part of the advice given at the yoga school where I practiced for many years.

Perhaps the British are immune, lol.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I'm not offended, I just disagree with what you said. It might be an interesting topic for another thread though.
Spiny, there might be differences. I do not remember where I encountered it, but there was a person with breathing problem, perhaps in RF only. He wrote against control of breathing. For him, other methods were more suitable.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Just curious - what is the best piece of advice you have received regards meditation?

Have a great day!

Stop fidgeting and fretting about the in and outs of what effective meditation should, or shouldn't be. There's no such thing as good or bad meditation sessions.


Just sit.

or Brad Warner advice...

Sit down and shut up.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Spiny, there might be differences. I do not remember where I encountered it, but there was a person with breathing problem, perhaps in RF only. He wrote against control of breathing. For him, other methods were more suitable.

In Buddhist meditation it's about paying attention to the breath, rather than controlling it. I think breath control is a yoga thing?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In Buddhist meditation it's about paying attention to the breath, rather than controlling it. I think breath control is a yoga thing?
It is not really really a control with me, it is just slowing it down. Paying attention automatically does that.
 

Papoon

Active Member
I can't recall any teachers expressing the view that you did. Which Buddhist group(s) were you actually involved with?
Primarily Kagyu. Also Theravadin (Ayya Khema and Ayya Kheminda).

I don't get why it bothers you. The Buddhist world is large, you have not experienced every teacher or teaching, or heard every view and nuance, nor could you be expected to.

And it is useful advice for some people. There are many varieties of people.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
And it is useful advice for some people.

I don't find what you said either useful or accurate:
"What is often called meditation is actually an ego trip about self improvement, discipline or obedience."

Anyway, let's not derail this thread.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
There's lots of stuff on YouTube by Buddhist meditation teachers, one of my favourites is Ajahn Brahm who in another life might have been a stand-up comedian. ;)
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
The best advice on meditation is that you always practice it with two things as the foundation. You meditate with intention, and without expectation. Intention keeps you present, and being present without expectation keeps you open.
Excellent way of summing it up!
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I think it is remarkable how a relatively passive action (yeah I realize that is an oxymoron) can have so many multilevel, multi-faceted aspects of realization and effects. (The power of yin!)
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
@Geoff-Allen, I'd also recommend directly studying the various suttas for yourself, where Lord Buddha taught the necessary, detailed steps to attain the achievement of the four main meditative jhanic states, e.g. AN 4.41 & MN 118, etc.

These are quotes (in red) from the scriptural texts, with my understanding of the quote (in italics) right after each one; maybe it will help you get started:

1. "gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect," (from MN 118) - This is the initial setup. One finds a secluded place to meditate, sits properly [to align the chakras and their energies and/or allows the free flow of energy between the brain and the body, IMO] ...
2. "withdrawn from sensuality ..." (from AN 4.41) - The meditator thus isolates himself from obvious external sensual experiences which comes through the five senses, and no longer focuses internal attention on any remaining sensory input from the five senses ...
3. "withdrawn from unskillful qualities ..." (AN 4.41) - Additionally, he does not pay attention to various unskillful internal qualities produced by the sixth sense (the mind, e.g. unskillful thoughts or emotions) ...
4. "and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out." (MN 118) - He mindfully focuses his attention on his breathing at the tip of his nose (if he chooses breathing as his meditation subject);
5. "Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.’ “He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing rapture’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing rapture.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing pleasure’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing pleasure.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation." (MN 118) - He focuses on the qualities of the breath; as he first begins his meditation, the breath is long (deep), and he notices it is so. As he relaxes into the meditation, the breath becomes shorter, and he notices it is so. After a while, the breath becomes too subtle to focus on, so he purposefully directs his focus (note how "I breathe" and "understands" changes to "I shall breathe" and "trains thus") on the whole process of breathing - the "whole body of breath". Then, as the mind settles even further, he purposefully focuses on using the breath to calm the restlessness of the body, "tranquillising the bodily formation". The mind is then directed to focus on the pleasant feelings generated as a result of a breath-calmed body; as he focuses on that pleasant feeling, it grows, suffusing the body and mind with a feeling of piti ("experiencing rapture" - the result of dopamine & norepinephrine increases in the brain?). Sukha ("experiencing pleasure" - the brain releases opioids?) also grows as a result of withdrawl of consciousness from the five material senses. Residual thoughts and emotions ("mental formations") are observed, but do not control the consciousness.
6. In such a way he "enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation." (AN 4.41) - He thus arrives at the first jhana, feeling rapture and pleasure, with residual thoughts remaining.

The first jhana is described as corresponding to the plane of existence for the lower Brahma gods. They dwell for up to an aeon in this state.

The second, third, and fourth jhanas are more refined and sublime states; no doubt you can read the suttas and learn how to achieve them rapidly! After reaching the fourth jhana, the meditator faces two options - to 1. continue deepening the sublime meditative states with the four "higher" arupa-jhanas, or 2. to dwell in the fourth jhana in order to progressively purify the mind; this is done in order to either 2a. progress to wisdom/insight meditation where he uses his purified mind as a tool to gain direct knowledge and insight into the nature of existence, the law of kamma, etc. or 2b. to use the purified mind to gain access to various psychic powers.

The reason the "higher" four arupa-jhanas cannot be used for wisdom/insight meditation is because the focus of consciousness is eventually eliminated as one reaches the arupa-jhanas, so that focus can no longer be used to investigate nature, reality, kamma, etc. Investigation into these subjects using wisdom/insight meditation is required to achieve nibbana; this happens because - once someone observes for himself the laws of reality, kamma, etc. - he naturally grows dispassionate towards these things which causes him to suffer and binds him to samsara, leading him into the final goal of nibbana.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I think it is remarkable how a relatively passive action (yeah I realize that is an oxymoron) can have so many multilevel, multi-faceted aspects of realization and effects. (The power of yin!)

It is indeed. And it seems there is always more to discover, endless possibilities.
 
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