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Members leaving -- and religious debate.

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I've been thinking about the announcements of a couple of members (one a staff member) leaving Religious Forums, usually because of dissatisfaction with how religious debate typically goes. And I think nobody would deny that such debates can become contentious, difficult, and possibly hurtful to those whose beliefs are deeply held and important in their lives.

As an atheist, I can tell you that the same is true in reverse -- every atheist on the Forum can tell you about the threats of eternal punishment that frequently put an end to discussion.

But it seems to me, that engaging in religious debate puts you in the position of having to defend your beliefs -- and this is just as true for atheists: we have to defend how our morals and ethics are guided without divine command, and without promises of reward or threat of punishment. If this is not something that you can comfortably do, I think that engaging in the first place may well be wrong for you.

Religious debates are often centered on the truth claims made by different faiths. Whether these claims involve the nature of divinity, moral laws, or the afterlife, they are usually fundamental to a believer’s worldview. Therefore, when a person chooses to engage in religious debate, they are expected to present and defend the core beliefs of their faith, particularly its claims to truth. Failure to do so diminishes the purpose of the debate, turning it into an exchange of opinions rather than a meaningful exploration of differing worldviews.

To debate religion without addressing its truth claims is akin to debating scientific theories without considering evidence. The objective of religious debate is often to explore which worldview is more coherent, logically sound, or consistent with human experience. If one party refuses to defend their religion’s truth, the debate becomes unbalanced and one-sided. One person may present logical or empirical challenges, but without a defense from the other side, these challenges go unanswered. This not only weakens the debate but can lead to an erosion of credibility for the individual’s religious stance.

Moreover, if a person’s beliefs are deeply personal, they may be reluctant to expose them to scrutiny, viewing their faith as beyond rational inquiry or criticism. While this is understandable, it is a position incompatible with public debate. When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique. A refusal to defend their faith’s truth claims signals that they are unwilling to engage in the very activity the debate demands.

Religious discussions, by their nature, grapple with existential and universal questions—ones that are crucial to our understanding of human life, ethics, and meaning. If a participant is unwilling to defend the truth claims of their religion, they should refrain from debate altogether. Doing so respects both the integrity of the discussion and the diverse perspectives of others. In contrast, entering a debate with no intention of defending one’s views only hinders genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I've been thinking about the announcements of a couple of members (one a staff member) leaving Religious Forums, usually because of dissatisfaction with how religious debate typically goes. And I think nobody would deny that such debates can become contentious, difficult, and possibly hurtful to those whose beliefs are deeply held and important in their lives.
I also feel that religious debates can become contentious, difficult, and possibly hurtful, but instead of leaving, I have discovered new ways of handling my frustrations.... I just go screaming in my house or down the road where nobody can hear me, and then I come back after I am done screaming.

That is one thing I do, but another thing I do is pick my battles, so instead of arguing about something, especially that something I have already discussed, I give a rating rather than responding to the post.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It can take work...a conscious decision, & effort
to not take challenges & insults personally.
But it can be done. The results needn't be
perfect....only better than not doing it.

Take a deep easy long breath or 2.
Remind yourself it doesn't matter.
Then, if ready to compose a post you'll
be satisfied with later, go ahead. If not,
then wait til the next day. a nite's sleep
does wonders for clarity, equanimity,
& energy.
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
I am indifferent if people want to debate each other's religions/non religions.

I am disappointed when it comes to insults and swipes at each other.

Even if it can be worded to avoid breaking the rules, I see enough attacks on here that lead me to avoid the debates 90% of the time.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's more political than religious I think. Honestly I can't think of any forum that isn't that way unless it's being heavily censored and biased where things don't get , let's just say a bit crazy.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I am indifferent if people want to debate each other's religions/non religions.

I am disappointed when it comes to insults and swipes at each other.

Even if it can be worded to avoid breaking the rules, I see enough attacks on here that lead me to avoid the debates 90% of the time.
All debates are like that actually with some exceptions. One debate for my go-to is actually heavily structured and very formal in the debating with debate moderating, limitations, and accepted terminology between participants that kind of thing.

I figured you're going to either have informal craziness or formalized prudence much like parliamentary procedure is.

This place is extremely mild compared to some other places I frequented like the now defunct BuddhaChat.

Oh the old days....
 

JustGeorge

Imperfect
Staff member
Premium Member
All debates are like that actually with some exceptions.
Meh. I still find it disappointing.
One debate for my go-to is actually heavily structured and very formal in the debating with debate moderating, limitations, and accepted terminology between participants that kind of thing.
That could be interesting.
I figured you're going to either have informal craziness or formalized prudence much like parliamentary procedure is.
Probably. It just isn't my cup of tea, and while I think it draws in some of the more aggressive sorts, it chases off some of the milder ones, too.

This place is extremely mild compared to some other places I frequented like the now defunct BuddhaChat.

Oh the old days....
I've heard such.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
But it seems to me, that engaging in religious debate puts you in the position of having to defend your beliefs
If you think that's what the problem comes down to then I don't think you understand what's being objected to.

From what I can see the two people who are talking about leaving now have absolutely no problem defending their religion and their beliefs against sincere challenges and rational objections, or responding to reasonable questioning or offering clarification about any misunderstanding or misconceptions therein.

As far as I can see what's being objected to is the ****storm of loaded questions, snarky passive aggressive dismissals, perpetual dog piles by the same rabidly anti-religious cliques comprised of people who for some reason never got past adolescence emotionally when it comes to this topic.

In a discussion forum people should have to defend and beliefs against questioning and polite challenges.

They shouldn't have to defend them against insults.

There's a difference between disagreement and disrespect.

There's a difference between disagreement and disregard.

There's a difference between disagreement and dismissal.

Let's face it, a lot of people aren't here to question or challenge religion, they're here to **** on religion and **** with religious people.


As far as I can see that's what's being objected to.

Let's not trivialize all that by trying to call it something else.
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
This place is extremely mild compared to some other places I frequented like the now defunct BuddhaChat.

I agree with you here. One comment on the other thread said this forum was toxic, and I wondered if they'd ever been on other forums. This is one of the most genteel forums overall that I've been on. Most people here do just fine in their communications and when things get heated sometimes people can learn from others actually being honest with them. Sometimes it takes someone telling you* something bluntly to your face before maybe realizing they have a point, one you can actually take on board and learn from. And maybe realize that the same thing you're accusing others of is something you also do yourself.

*universal you, including myself in that
 

anna.

colors your eyes with what's not there
If you think that's what the problem comes down to then I don't think you understand what's being objected to.

From what I can see the two people who are talking about leaving now have absolutely no problem defending their religion and their beliefs against sincere challenges and rational objections, or responding to reasonable questioning or offering clarification about any misunderstanding or misconceptions therein.

As far as I can see what's being objected to is the ****storm of loaded questions, snarky passive aggressive dismissals, perpetual dog piles by the same rabidly anti-religious cliques comprised of people who for some reason never got past adolescence emotionally when it comes to this topic.

In a discussion forum people should have to defend and beliefs against questioning and polite challenges.

They shouldn't have to defend them against insults.

There's a difference between disagreement and disrespect.

There's a difference between disagreement and disregard.

There's a difference between disagreement and dismissal.

Let's face it, a lot of people aren't here to question or challenge religion, they're here to **** on religion and **** with religious people.


As far as I can see that's what's being objected to.

Let's not trivialize all that by trying to call it something else.

Speaking as a "boomer," it goes both ways. It usually does. Human nature doing what human nature does.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I've been thinking about the announcements of a couple of members (one a staff member) leaving Religious Forums, usually because of dissatisfaction with how religious debate typically goes. And I think nobody would deny that such debates can become contentious, difficult, and possibly hurtful to those whose beliefs are deeply held and important in their lives.

As an atheist, I can tell you that the same is true in reverse -- every atheist on the Forum can tell you about the threats of eternal punishment that frequently put an end to discussion.

But it seems to me, that engaging in religious debate puts you in the position of having to defend your beliefs -- and this is just as true for atheists: we have to defend how our morals and ethics are guided without divine command, and without promises of reward or threat of punishment. If this is not something that you can comfortably do, I think that engaging in the first place may well be wrong for you.

Religious debates are often centered on the truth claims made by different faiths. Whether these claims involve the nature of divinity, moral laws, or the afterlife, they are usually fundamental to a believer’s worldview. Therefore, when a person chooses to engage in religious debate, they are expected to present and defend the core beliefs of their faith, particularly its claims to truth. Failure to do so diminishes the purpose of the debate, turning it into an exchange of opinions rather than a meaningful exploration of differing worldviews.

To debate religion without addressing its truth claims is akin to debating scientific theories without considering evidence. The objective of religious debate is often to explore which worldview is more coherent, logically sound, or consistent with human experience. If one party refuses to defend their religion’s truth, the debate becomes unbalanced and one-sided. One person may present logical or empirical challenges, but without a defense from the other side, these challenges go unanswered. This not only weakens the debate but can lead to an erosion of credibility for the individual’s religious stance.

Moreover, if a person’s beliefs are deeply personal, they may be reluctant to expose them to scrutiny, viewing their faith as beyond rational inquiry or criticism. While this is understandable, it is a position incompatible with public debate. When one enters a debate, they inherently agree to subject their ideas to questioning and critique. A refusal to defend their faith’s truth claims signals that they are unwilling to engage in the very activity the debate demands.

Religious discussions, by their nature, grapple with existential and universal questions—ones that are crucial to our understanding of human life, ethics, and meaning. If a participant is unwilling to defend the truth claims of their religion, they should refrain from debate altogether. Doing so respects both the integrity of the discussion and the diverse perspectives of others. In contrast, entering a debate with no intention of defending one’s views only hinders genuine dialogue and the pursuit of understanding.

A religious forum is a forum for various faiths. Many atheists don't even like the idea of "faith" and claim that their beliefs are really "lack of beliefs" and that there is no faith involved in their worldview. This seems to be a lack of insight on the part of the atheist.
So an atheist is arguing in the realm of science and empiricism and consensus views of science and scholarship, as if this is the be all and end all of the matter.
I suppose it makes for an unsatisfying discussion or debate when the whole discussion comes from such opposing pov.
I find myself leaving discussions because I have to repeat myself to an ever increasing number of atheists who are attacking the same things in what I am saying. This of course may lead those atheists to think that means that I cannot answer their comments, and so they have won the debate. I cannot really help this outcome.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
RF is a great place to work on communication and social skills. It's a great place to learn about the lives of others from all over the world. It's a great place to discuss ideas and ideals. It's a great place to learn how to hop on one foot 'cause you've had your toes stepped on, or even stomped.

Unfortunately, it is also a place I feel some come to in order to release their frustrations and anger, to practice "come backs", or just to be noticed and engaged with. We're all human with frailties and strengths, and it's sometimes difficult to be kind when attempting to be strong, or to be delicate when excited about a topic or point. But as forum friends and associates, we can raise each other up and try to cushion some of the blows.

Here's to a better day tomorrow as we awake with new opportunity. :beercheers:
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I was just thinking that a while ago, before you said it. I used to be uncomfortable in social situations and at a loss for words but I find that I have changed quite a bit since posting on here.
I spend so much time in my own head it does me good to have to slow down and type my thoughts out one letter at a time. I generally proof my posts, and often find I've skipped right over essential words. That and talking to one's self aloud when shopping are some if the cues of living alone as we age. I hope strangers find it as hilarious as I do!
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
This is a good thread for me to say thank you to two members I know I engaged with years ago on another forum while I was using a different Username, that is if they are the same people behind these current Usernames. It's truly amazing how open discussion, sometimes not so friendly, can broaden or define one's beliefs.

From the days of Belief Net Forums, Gaco Gal says thanks to @blü 2 and @F1fan, and anyone else who may have hung out there and now resides here, for helping me learn so very much! I appreciate you and others that make me think, so much!
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
RF is a great place to work on communication

I wholeheartishly agree. Before I found this place I couldn't hardly speak goodishly much hardly at all mostly sort of.
and social skills

Also agree.
*Burp*
I spend so much time in my own head it does me good to have to slow down and type my thoughts out one letter at a time. I generally proof my posts, and often find I've skipped right over essential words. That and talking to one's self aloud when shopping are some if the cues of living alone as we age. I hope strangers find it as hilarious as I do!
Just wear headphones and pretend you're talking on the phone like I do. :D

I find that saying my shopping list out loud when I'm at the store saves me from having to write it down. But unless I say it out loud I'm going to forget something.

*Edit: at which point the people in the parking lot are going to hear me swearing at myself anyway.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I wholeheartishly agree. Before I found this place I couldn't hardly speak goodishly much hardly at all mostly sort of.


Also agree.
*Burp*

Just wear headphones and pretend you're talking on the phone like I do. :D
Maybe I could wear my hair so my hearing aids show and they'll think I've got the latest in wireless buds.
I find that saying my shopping list out loud when I'm at the store saves me from having to write it down. But unless I say it out loud I'm going to forget something.
If I'm looking for something specific I find myself saying it over and over so I won't get distracted by all the things I'm not looking for.
*Edit: at which point the people in the parking lot are going to hear me swearing at myself anyway.
I got caught the other day looking for nightlight bulbs among all the many kinds of light bulbs. I kind of wished I had a wand so when I spotted them my audible declaring the discovery would have had more meaning. LOL
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This is a good thread for me to say thank you to two members I know I engaged with years ago on another forum while I was using a different Username, that is if they are the same people behind these current Usernames. It's truly amazing how open discussion, sometimes not so friendly, can broaden or define one's beliefs.

From the days of Belief Net Forums, Gaco Gal says thanks to @blü 2 and @F1fan, and anyone else who may have hung out there and now resides here, for helping me learn so very much! I appreciate you and others that make me think, so much!
Yup, that's us from the old Bnet days. And Rider is here too. That's four of us. Little by little we will take over this forum. There's a Facebook page for the old gang from Beliefnet.
 
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