Men in the West are dressed in full; women are dressed half , quarter or less

[FearGod]

It was in another thread, and both the question and your reply are still there. Nothing was deleted.

right,i was sleepy that night,i missed it,thanks.

 

[Bismillah]

Bismillah, honest question: do you think the divorce rates would be higher...significantly higher...in countries like Pakistan if the stigma for a divorced woman weren't so damning? Much of the horrible treatment of divorced women comes from her own family in the form of shame.

Secondary to that, if there was a system in place to help these women and the children thrive after divorcing, do you agree that more would choose this option, rather than staying in miserable marriages?

I agree that in many countries there is both a social as well as financial aspect that discourages women to pursue divorce options, though it should be noted that there is no country, as far as I am aware, that bars women the right to divorce their husband. How large is this influence? I am not sure. I, as well as you, do not know how to quantify this factor.

So it comes down to a statement: do many Western countries suffer from abnormally high divorce rates? The simple answer is yes. And it comes down to the fact that America is at the top of the list and that should be troubling, to me at least, because I am a believer of the fact that social and societal stability comes from familial stability.

 

[beenie]

I agree that in many countries there is both a social as well as financial aspect that discourages women to pursue divorce options, though it should be noted that there is no country, as far as I am aware, that bars women the right to divorce their husband. How large is this influence? I am not sure. I, as well as you, do not know how to quantify this factor.

So it comes down to a statement: do many Western countries suffer from abnormally high divorce rates? The simple answer is yes. And it comes down to the fact that America is at the top of the list and that should be troubling, to me at least, because I am a believer of the fact that social and societal stability comes from familial stability.

I agree that the divorce rate in the US is pretty sad, and I too believe that ideally, an intact family is best for our children...I highly doubt many will argue that point.

My point is, and one that people keep trying to shove under the rug, is that women in Muslim countries, such as Pakistan, feel powerless to do anything to get out of an abusive or neglectful, non-loving marriage. Their alternative is worse, so many suffer through and stay in their marriages. I've seen it myself; I have a lot of family in Pakistan, and I can tell you this: if divorce wasn't such a "mark" on the woman, I know of three women in my family alone who would have left their husbands. In addition, two of my Pakistani cousins DID leave physically abusive marriages; one was fortunate enough to come to the US for education and happily remarried, the other has no way over here and is back living with her parents. The chances of her remarrying are slim to none, because no matter that the man beat the snot out of her on a daily basis, SHE is still stigmatized as the "woman who must have really upset him".

Please don't kid yourself that women "can" divorce. Of course they CAN, but they rarely DO because of what I just posted.

Neither situation is ideal, but we should at least be honest with ourselves.

 

[Bismillah]

I agree that the divorce rate in the US is pretty sad, and I too believe that ideally, an intact family is best for our children...I highly doubt many will argue that point.

Well that was the original reason as to why I posted, to provide another link to show that given what statistics we have Western countries do suffer from abnormally high divorce rates.

Again, I agree with what you are saying this is present in almost all third world countries where a divorced women is seen as "damaged goods". However, it is impossible to quantify this factor. As such it is not much use to us when discussing divorce rates. Neither you nor I know how pervasive this factor so there is no use trying to use it solely to discredit those statistics that are available to us.

 

[beenie]

Well that was the original reason as to why I posted, to provide another link to show that given what statistics we have Western countries do suffer from abnormally high divorce rates.

Again, I agree with what you are saying this is present in almost all third world countries where a divorced women is seen as "damaged goods". However, it is impossible to quantify this factor. As such it is not much use to us when discussing divorce rates. Neither you nor I know how pervasive this factor so there is no use trying to use it solely to discredit those statistics that are available to us.

You are correct that we can't quantify the factor of unhappy marriages, but I disagree that we should accept the statistics available to us as accurate or fact either. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[FearGod]

I agree that the divorce rate in the US is pretty sad, and I too believe that ideally, an intact family is best for our children...I highly doubt many will argue that point.

My point is, and one that people keep trying to shove under the rug, is that women in Muslim countries, such as Pakistan, feel powerless to do anything to get out of an abusive or neglectful, non-loving marriage. Their alternative is worse, so many suffer through and stay in their marriages. I've seen it myself; I have a lot of family in Pakistan, and I can tell you this: if divorce wasn't such a "mark" on the woman, I know of three women in my family alone who would have left their husbands. In addition, two of my Pakistani cousins DID leave physically abusive marriages; one was fortunate enough to come to the US for education and happily remarried, the other has no way over here and is back living with her parents. The chances of her remarrying are slim to none, because no matter that the man beat the snot out of her on a daily basis, SHE is still stigmatized as the "woman who must have really upset him".

Please don't kid yourself that women "can" divorce. Of course they CAN, but they rarely DO because of what I just posted.

Neither situation is ideal, but we should at least be honest with ourselves.

i disagree with you that women in Pakistan (as your example) aren't able to separate from their husbands and choose to suffer with an unhappy marriage.

Just to read facts according to Pakistani news (PakistanToday)

LAHORE - Marriage is a funny institution. It begins with much fanfare, be it a product of love or arranged by family. Some consider early marital life to be the most fulfilling. But many couples experience negative changes after they start living together and become used to each other’s habits. Arguments and fights become the order of the day and the husband and wife become intolerable to each other and they opt for divorce. The fanfare with which it began meets a silent end.
Increasing divorce rate: The divorce rate has been on the rise in Pakistan over the last decade. In Lahore city alone more than 100 divorces are registered in family courts in a day. The divorce rate is increasing not only in the upper class of society but also in lower and middle classes. From February 2005 to January 2008 approximately 75, 000 divorce cases had been registered. From February 2008 to May 2011, 1, 24141 divorce cases were registered. Around 2, 59064 separations have taken place in the provincial metropolis over the last decade. In 2010, 40,410 separation cases were registered in the city’s family courts and 13,500” divorces have been filed so far in 2011.

Read article in details here

 

[beenie]

i disagree with you that women in Pakistan (as your example) aren't able to separate from their husbands and choose to suffer with an unhappy marriage.

Just to read facts according to Pakistani news (PakistanToday)

LAHORE - Marriage is a funny institution. It begins with much fanfare, be it a product of love or arranged by family. Some consider early marital life to be the most fulfilling. But many couples experience negative changes after they start living together and become used to each other’s habits. Arguments and fights become the order of the day and the husband and wife become intolerable to each other and they opt for divorce. The fanfare with which it began meets a silent end.
Increasing divorce rate: The divorce rate has been on the rise in Pakistan over the last decade. In Lahore city alone more than 100 divorces are registered in family courts in a day. The divorce rate is increasing not only in the upper class of society but also in lower and middle classes. From February 2005 to January 2008 approximately 75, 000 divorce cases had been registered. From February 2008 to May 2011, 1, 24141 divorce cases were registered. Around 2, 59064 separations have taken place in the provincial metropolis over the last decade. In 2010, 40,410 separation cases were registered in the city’s family courts and 13,500” divorces have been filed so far in 2011.

Read article in details here

*clears throat...again*

Please read this carefully:

I never said a woman in Pakistan cannot divorce. Please quote my post that says they can't.

I said it is very DIFFICULT for a woman in Pakistan to divorce without facing scrutiny from society and her family. Please reread my postS on the matter and then try and disagree with me. Even Bismillah agreed that divorced women in Pakistan face a stigma.

[QUOTE-Bismillah]Again, I agree with what you are saying this is present in almost all third world countries where a divorced women is seen as "damaged goods"[/QUOTE]

The divorce rate in Lahore is only a very small percentage; if you knew anything about Pakistan at all, you would know that the vast majority of Pakistanis live in rural areas, a.k.a. the villages, which are headed by feudal lords. In those tribes, it is very, very difficult for a woman to divorce her husband.

Pakistan's population breakdown

Somehow you are trying to defend religion when I have, from the beginning, blamed culture.

 

[Bismillah]

You are correct that we can't quantify the factor of unhappy marriages, but I disagree that we should accept the statistics available to us as accurate or fact either. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Fair enough.

 

[FearGod]

*clears throat...again*

Please read this carefully:

I never said a woman in Pakistan cannot divorce. Please quote my post that says they can't.

I said it is very DIFFICULT for a woman in Pakistan to divorce without facing scrutiny from society and her family. Please reread my postS on the matter and then try and disagree with me. Even Bismillah agreed that divorced women in Pakistan face a stigma.

[QUOTE-Bismillah]Again, I agree with what you are saying this is present in almost all third world countries where a divorced women is seen as "damaged goods"

The divorce rate in Lahore is only a very small percentage; if you knew anything about Pakistan at all, you would know that the vast majority of Pakistanis live in rural areas, a.k.a. the villages, which are headed by feudal lords. In those tribes, it is very, very difficult for a woman to divorce her husband.

Pakistan's population breakdown

Somehow you are trying to defend religion when I have, from the beginning, blamed culture.

A divorce is a miserable case for the family being it in the west or the east,being it in Pakistan or being in USA,we shouldn't lie on our selves and i ain't defending my religion but you are portraying divorce and separation as a journey.

imagine the children how much they'll suffer that their father and mother are apart,should we be selfish looking just for our happiness and have no feelings towards our children,yes i know many women aren't happy with their husbands but they sacrificed for their children to grow in a healthy family and i regard them as heroes than another one who traveled to another country to try a new husband and just erase from their minds their own children,that is an aflliction.

 

[beenie]

A divorce is a miserable case for the family being it in the west or the east,being it in Pakistan or being in USA,we shouldn't lie on our selves and i ain't defending my religion but you are portraying divorce and separation as a journey.

imagine the children how much they'll suffer that their father and mother are apart,should we be selfish looking just for our happiness and have no feelings towards our children,yes i know many women aren't happy with their husbands but they sacrificed for their children to grow in a healthy family and i regard them as heroes than another one who traveled to another country to try a new husband and just erase from their minds their own children,that is an aflliction.

I'm a mother, and I'll tell you this: I don't know a woman who doesn't think of her children first before she decides to divorce her husband. You're right, many do sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of the children's security, and yes, they are strong women. For a woman to leave her children behind (I'd almost guarantee that's not HER choice, but a choice made FOR her)...she must have been very desperate.

However, a woman should not, under any circumstances, stay in an abusive relationship for the sake of her children. Doing so teaches these children that it is acceptable to be abused, and the cycle continues.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here; perhaps we could start another thread about divorce in general, but the assertion made in this thread that clothing has any bearing on divorce rates is silly. Men who wish to cheat will find a way to cheat.

 

[FearGod]

I'm a mother, and I'll tell you this: I don't know a woman who doesn't think of her children first before she decides to divorce her husband. You're right, many do sacrifice their own happiness for the sake of the children's security, and yes, they are strong women. For a woman to leave her children behind (I'd almost guarantee that's not HER choice, but a choice made FOR her)...she must have been very desperate.

However, a woman should not, under any circumstances, stay in an abusive relationship for the sake of her children. Doing so teaches these children that it is acceptable to be abused, and the cycle continues.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here; perhaps we could start another thread about divorce in general, but the assertion made in this thread that clothing has any bearing on divorce rates is silly. Men who wish to cheat will find a way to cheat.

i'll make cheating as simple as this.

if you are walking with your husband in the market and then a very attractive sexy woman wearing a very short pants that makes your husband staring at her like crazy,will you regard that as cheating or just he is enjoying her beauty,but if in a case that he is walking and all around him are well dressed,then nothing to look at.

What do you think ? Do you feel jealous or you don't care about his flying eyes to another women walking around.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

i'll make cheating as simple as this.

if you are walking with your husband in the market and then a very attractive sexy woman wearing a very short pants that makes your husband staring at her like crazy,will you regard that as cheating or just he is enjoying her beauty,but if in a case that he is walking and all around him are will dressed,then nothing to look at.

What do you think ? Do you feel jealous or you don't care about his flying eyes to another women walking around.

There’s a big difference between an appreciative glance and sitting there drooling and looking like a pervert. Unless jealousy is a serious problem for you the former is acceptable (and pretty much expected) while the latter is not.

If your man can’t avoid cheating then get another one (or just be polyamorous like me). Trying to remove all possible temptations by restricting what other women can wear is oppressive and in today’s world where hard-core images are a quick Google search away utterly pointless.

 

[Bismillah]

if you are walking with your husband in the market and then a very attractive sexy woman wearing a very short pants that makes your husband staring at her like crazy,will you regard that as cheating or just he is enjoying her beauty,but if in a case that he is walking and all around him are well dressed,then nothing to look at.

The Qur'an commands men to lower their gaze first. What type of pathetic shell of a man cannot avert his gaze if he truly is cognizant of God. What type of pathetic worthless shell of a husband cannot master his sexual impulses and preserve his dignity and the dignity of his wife? The problem is not the sexy women, temptation will always exist and we exist to struggle the problem is the pathetic man who cannot master his own impulses.

 

[beenie]

i'll make cheating as simple as this.

if you are walking with your husband in the market and then a very attractive sexy woman wearing a very short pants that makes your husband staring at her like crazy,will you regard that as cheating or just he is enjoying her beauty,but if in a case that he is walking and all around him are well dressed,then nothing to look at.

What do you think ? Do you feel jealous or you don't care about his flying eyes to another women walking around.

I'll make cheating as simple as this.

If a man wants to cheat, he'll find a fully-clothed woman sexy enough to cheat with as well. Let's just ban women from going out at all; surely that would solve the problem.

Bismillah nailed it. Instead of worrying about what women are wearing, men need to follow the ayah which commands men to lower their gaze. Funny how it's so easy to subscribe half of a verse when it benefits them.

 

[paarsurrey]

I agree that in many countries there is both a social as well as financial aspect that discourages women to pursue divorce options, though it should be noted that there is no country, as far as I am aware, that bars women the right to divorce their husband. How large is this influence? I am not sure. I, as well as you, do not know how to quantify this factor.

So it comes down to a statement: do many Western countries suffer from abnormally high divorce rates? The simple answer is yes. And it comes down to the fact that America is at the top of the list and that should be troubling, to me at least, because I am a believer of the fact that social and societal stability comes from familial stability.

I agree with you here.

 

[paarsurrey]

If a woman in the West allures men with her sexy dresses and a man cheats his wife due to it; in a way, the sexy woman has cheated her fellow woman, in my opinion.

 

[FearGod]

I'll make cheating as simple as this.

If a man wants to cheat, he'll find a fully-clothed woman sexy enough to cheat with as well. Let's just ban women from going out at all; surely that would solve the problem.

Bismillah nailed it. Instead of worrying about what women are wearing, men need to follow the ayah which commands men to lower their gaze. Funny how it's so easy to subscribe half of a verse when it benefits them.

So what is your opinion as a muslim woman.

Do you agree that woman are free to wear a sexy short dress in public if she wish,but men should lower their gaze.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

TBH, I'd be looking at a sexy woman as much as my husband.

I still think men can dress a little less to keep up with women like me who like to wear clothing that sometimes show cleavage and sometimes show a little leg. Nothing bad about the human body. It's beautiful.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

If a woman in the West allures men with her sexy dresses and a man cheats his wife due to it; in a way, the sexy woman has cheated her fellow woman, in my opinion.

We are not responsible for the relationships of other people. They are.

 

[Alceste]

If a woman in the West allures men with her sexy dresses and a man cheats his wife due to it; in a way, the sexy woman has cheated her fellow woman, in my opinion.

I had no idea Muslim men were unable to make any independent choices of their own regarding their behavior without a woman pulling the strings. That is informative!

TBH, I'd be looking at a sexy woman as much as my husband.

I still think men can dress a little less to keep up with women like me who like to wear clothing that sometimes show cleavage and sometimes show a little leg. Nothing bad about the human body. It's beautiful.

Yes, by all means, boys, take off your shirts while you're at it.