Men's Issues/Masculism DIR

[Alceste]

I gotta say, it occurred to me this morning that I actually view everything that ISN'T a feminist DIR as basically a "masculinist DIR". This is, after all, a patriarchal society. It's like when I go to the book store. There's a "history" section that is absolutely huge and entirely focused on the achievements of men. Then, any history by or about women is packed into a much, much smaller "women's studies" section (one shelf right at the bottom, half filled, nowhere near the history section). The history books there are mixed together with feminist philosophical work and even some fiction.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Actually, that is probably exactly what I would do. I don't really like posting in DIRs. I prefer open discussion or debate. Not that I am against DIRs, I just don't like limiting myself or censoring myself in any way.

Fair enough. There are other perspectives, however, that RF is willing to accommodate for.

That is exactly what I expect it to become.

It hasn't. And it wouldn't. Why? Because with a Masculinist Only forum, with RF recognizing it as a viable group, Feminist Only participants will not be allowed to bash other groups while in the exclusive group. Equal consideration, right? DIR's and other exclusive forums are there for groups to be able to talk about pertinent issues without interruption from those who don't identify. However, exclusive forum members are not allowed to bash other groups.

It's part of the rules. If masculinists want their forum, if staff considers it and finds it beneficial for the membership, and they get it, they're not allowed to troll feminism. Same thing for feminists....we're not allowed to troll masculinists in the private forum (or anywhere, really, but Masculism is allowed to be questioned in the open forums).

 

[Draka]

You know what's really strange to me here? The fact that I'm even having this argument. As if I'm on some "other side" to women's rights or equality or something by not springing to the defense of feminism and not feeling some righteous indignation at some perceived slight against it here. I just don't see it. Most people here know me. I've been here for years. I shouldn't have to say anything about my life and what I've gone through and what my stances are. For anyone to perceive me as anyone who doesn't support equality for both genders I find...odd to say the least.

I try to come in here with a balanced argument and presentation. I explain myself. I even think I do a pretty good job of keeping emotion out of it and just sticking to the facts. No need to get overly sensitive about the issue at hand and reading far too much into it than needs to be. Something I think is happening here

 

[Kilgore Trout]

As an educated, straight, white, American male, I feel that I, and others like me, should have a protected forum where we can safely discuss the unique problems, issues, and challenges of being educated, straight, white, American males, without the constant attacks, insults, and distractions of those who aim to repress us. It's hard enough to be an educated, straight, white, American male out in the world without having to deal with the constant harrassment and discrimination here too. So, please, can we get an educated, straight, white American male directory added to the forum as well?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I gotta say, it occurred to me this morning that I actually view everything that ISN'T a feminist DIR as basically a "masculinist DIR". This is, after all, a patriarchal society. It's like when I go to the book store. There's a "history" section that is absolutely huge and entirely focused on the achievements of men. Then, any history by or about women is packed into a much, much smaller "women's studies" section (one shelf right at the bottom, half filled, nowhere near the history section). The history books there are mixed together with feminist philosophical work and even some fiction.

Understandable. There are some who don't see society as patriarchal. I think those people who see female privilege and matriarchy ought to feel they have a place to discuss equal rights for males.

So, here's my olive branch and offer to reduce conflict....I'll advocate to ensure that Feminist Only participants never mention Masculinism, and I'll request the participants of the Masculinist Only forum, if created, to refrain from ever mentioning Feminism. Fight matriarchy and female privilege. Fight for men's equality. Just stop at feminism, and I'll support ensuring that feminists never mention masculinists.

It's just a thought, but anyone have a better idea?

 

[Alceste]

You know what's really strange to me here? The fact that I'm even having this argument. As if I'm on some "other side" to women's rights or equality or something by not springing to the defense of feminism and not feeling some righteous indignation at some perceived slight against it here. I just don't see it. Most people here know me. I've been here for years. I shouldn't have to say anything about my life and what I've gone through and what my stances are. For anyone to perceive me as anyone who doesn't support equality for both genders I find...odd to say the least.

I try to come in here with a balanced argument and presentation. I explain myself. I even think I do a pretty good job of keeping emotion out of it and just sticking to the facts. No need to get overly sensitive about the issue at hand and reading far too much into it than needs to be. Something I think is happening here

You probably hit on a persistent source of irritation by assuming that the Feminist DIR is exclusively for women to discuss issues that affect only women.

However balanced you consider your justification of that position to be, it's of course going to get you a bit of backlash. Frustration with endless arguments over whether or not feminism is sexist, whether men can be feminists, whether it exclusively deals with women's issues, etc. are the WHOLE REASON we wanted and needed a DIR.

The thing about a "Masculinist" DIR is that I'm not at all convinced anybody here has ever once in their lives spontaneously uttered the words "I'm a masculinist". The subject of masculinism only ever seems to come up in the context of criticizing feminism. I feel that if anybody on RF actually wanted to be discussing men's issues (domestic violence, sexual assault, custody, over-prescription of ADHD drugs for boys, etc), they would be. In fact, I hardly ever see such threads. Meanwhile, the "criticizing feminism" threads are endless.

 

[Alceste]

Understandable. There are some who don't see society as patriarchal. I think those people who see female privilege and matriarchy ought to feel they have a place to discuss equal rights for males.

So, here's my olive branch and offer to reduce conflict....I'll advocate to ensure that Feminist Only participants never mention Masculinism, and I'll request the participants of the Masculinist Only forum, if created, to refrain from ever mentioning Feminism. Fight matriarchy and female privilege. Fight for men's equality. Just stop at feminism, and I'll support ensuring that feminists never mention masculinists.

It's just a thought, but anyone have a better idea?

Sure. I can't actually imagine myself ever bringing up "Masculinism" unless we were already discussing it.

 

[Draka]

Do members of the Liberal Only forum never mention conservatives? Do members of the Conservative Only forum never mention liberals?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You know what's really strange to me here? The fact that I'm even having this argument. As if I'm on some "other side" to women's rights or equality or something by not springing to the defense of feminism and not feeling some righteous indignation at some perceived slight against it here. I just don't see it. Most people here know me. I've been here for years. I shouldn't have to say anything about my life and what I've gone through and what my stances are. For anyone to perceive me as anyone who doesn't support equality for both genders I find...odd to say the least.

I try to come in here with a balanced argument and presentation. I explain myself. I even think I do a pretty good job of keeping emotion out of it and just sticking to the facts. No need to get overly sensitive about the issue at hand and reading far too much into it than needs to be. Something I think is happening here

Look, D, f you misrepresent the purpose of a Feminist Only forum, I intend to correct it. And if you make a baseless accusation about people's arguments against a Masculinist Only forum, I suggest you back it up with evidence if you're all about facts.

Again, I support the creation of a Masculinist Only forum. Just keep the feminism-bashing out of it. I've given ample evidence to show exactly what might constitute feminist-bashing so that people can consider what they're advocating. Is the creation of this forum a reaction against feminism? Or is it a forum to discuss gender equality where they see matriarchal oppression?

Because....again....feminism =/= misandry. Here's to hoping people will pick that up if they want to consider bringing up "feminism" as a qualifier for having a Masculinist Only forum at RF.

 

[Revoltingest]

The criteria is totally simple.

First, "criteria" is the plural of "criterion".

Are you a feminist? If you answered "yes"....

Your criterion is not shared by all staff here. (Discussed in a different thread.)
So I note your opinion, but I won't carve such presumptuous opining in stone.

FYI, we scored the same on that silly test.

If only that mattered....

 

[Me Myself]

No one in the whole thread has ever said feminism equals misandry, why do people keep making this strawman to refute it?

 

[Draka]

You probably hit on a persistent source of irritation by assuming that the Feminist DIR is exclusively for women to discuss issues that affect only women.

However balanced you consider your justification of that position to be, it's of course going to get you a bit of backlash. Frustration with endless arguments over whether or not feminism is sexist, whether men can be feminists, whether it exclusively deals with women's issues, etc. are the WHOLE REASON we wanted and needed a DIR.

The thing about a "Masculinist" DIR is that I'm not at all convinced anybody here has ever once in their lives spontaneously uttered the words "I'm a masculinist". The subject of masculinism only ever seems to come up in the context of criticizing feminism. I feel that if anybody on RF actually wanted to be discussing men's issues (domestic violence, sexual assault, custody, over-prescription of ADHD drugs for boys, etc), they would be. In fact, I hardly ever see such threads. Meanwhile, the "criticizing feminism" threads are endless.

No, I said that the feminist area is for women's issues. Is it not essentially what it is for? I didn't say it was only for women to post in. If it was meant for true gender equality then that should be the name of the forum, not just feminism.

Truth of the matter is simply that feminism does have camps within it, connotations to it, that are very wide spread across the movement. This is why some people are uncomfortable with the term or may wonder if they really qualify to use the term. This makes it quite valid for some to wonder or feel hesitant as to using the forum to address certain issues involving men.

Also, the thread says "men's issues/masculism" not masculinism. They are actually different things.

Myself, as I said before, I hesitate to use labels at all because of the confusion in definitions/camps/connotations. To me it is enough to know where I stand on an issue as it comes. I don't need to label myself to put myself in one camp or another, to fly a flag only to have it mean one thing to one group or person and another thing to someone else. I'm quite fine being myself.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No one in the whole thread has ever said feminism equals misandry, why do people keep making this strawman to refute it?

Oh I'm sorry. There's an accusation that all we people want is to shut men up. Seems to me in my handy dandy dictionary that wanting men to stay quiet and never say anything in their best interest equals misandry.

Or do you have something you want to add to that accusation?

 

[Alceste]

Do members of the Liberal Only forum never mention conservatives? Do members of the Conservative Only forum never mention liberals?

Just out of curiosity, do you intend to contribute to the feminist DIR?

I ask because the staff are still hammering out their strategy for moderation and enforcement, so it would probably be helpful if anybody who is making recommendations on that subject clarifies whether or not they intend to participate.

Me, obviously I am participating. I'm OK with a policy of not bashing masculinism in the Feminist DIR, but I would probably draw the line somewhere between "bashing" and "mentioning" or "discussing".

 

[Revoltingest]

Because....again....feminism =/= misandry.

I'm for equal rights, but only for everyone.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

My favorite thing about feminism and masculism is how they bring everyone together and promote harmony.

 

[Me Myself]

Oh I'm sorry. There's an accusation that all we people want is to shut men up. Seems to me in my handy dandy dictionary that wanting men to stay quiet and never say anything in their best interest equals misandry.

Or do you have something you want to add to that accusation?

Yes, why do you mean "we" to mean feminists?

I would be surprised if anyone in this thread say they thought all feminists always want to shut up all men about everything, yet you answer as if such was the claim.

Some people have argued against some attitudes in ts thread, some people also started saying we dont need masculism we have feminism and discussing that somehow puffed into becoming feminism bashing.

I am sorry, but I am not seeing it.

 

[Revoltingest]

My favorite thing about feminism and masculism is how they bring everyone together and promote harmony.

It's like being married!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Yes, why do you mean "we" to mean feminists?

I would be surprised if anyone in this thread say they thought all feminists always want to shut up all men about everything, yet you answer as if such was the claim.

How did you interpret Draka's post suggesting that she can't help but wonder if this is about hushing men?

Some people have argued against some attitudes in ts thread, some people also started saying we dont need masculism we have feminism and discussing that somehow puffed into becoming feminism bashing.

I am sorry, but I am not seeing it.

One person said the issues surrounding Masculism are already covered in Feminism. I saw no more than one. Care to show me more?

 

[Falvlun]

Didn't feel like reading the thread, but I don't see any reason why DIRs need to be symetric. Is there enough interest and disussion topics for a "man issue" DIR? Who would be allowed to post in there? If no one is going to post in there then it's kinda pointless to make a new DIR just to make things "fair".