Men's Issues/Masculism DIR

[Revoltingest]

Spend some time poking around the dark corners of the internet. You'll find that there's an entire movement of men who dress like this Sailor Moon.

So Kilgore is just a trend follower, eh?
The planet is doomed.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So Kilgore is just a trend follower, eh?
The planet is doomed.

I just want everyone to like me!

 

[Me Myself]

Well, at that period in history, women had practically no rights except to be baby-makers.

*looks innocent* Oh goodness! Why are people saying such horrible mean things? We aren't bashing feminism. We're just not liking it very much and we want a place where we can not like it a lot in peace.[/sarcasm]

The only post there that talked about talking against FEMINISM was rakhel's question.

The others, talked about not liking the way some posters have been handling themselves here or about issues brought to this thread by non supporters (issues that had to do with feminism having all the answers so why a masculist DIR?)

 

[DreadFish]

Everyone is complaining and talking too much. All we really needed to do was grunt in reply

What we have here is a failure to be manly and I think it's necessary to have a manliness DIR for the sake of propagating the manifesto of the man!

See, The Art of Manliness


Everyone needs a little more genuine masculinity! Knockout:cigar:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The only post there that talked about talking against FEMINISM was rakhel's question.

The others, talked about not liking the way some posters have been handling themselves here or about issues brought to this thread by non supporters (issues that had to do with feminism having all the answers so why a masculist DIR?)

Dude, you asked. I provided. I'm also not the only person in this thread that sees it, either.

 

[Me Myself]

Dude, you asked. I provided. I'm also not the only person in this thread that sees it, either.

You provided not what I asked

 

[Draka]

*looks innocent* Oh goodness! Why are people saying such horrible mean things? We aren't bashing feminism. We're just not liking it very much and we want a place where we can not like it a lot in peace.[/sarcasm]

None of that looked like bashing to me. It was as Me Myself said. Issues were brought up, it was mentioned that issues could be discussed in the feminism area, concerns about feminism as a whole were brought up and how it would actually cover their concerns.

The term "feminism" is used to cover many different forms of "the movement". Some things people aren't comfortable with. Are you saying the mere discussing of this fact is "bashing"? No one is allowed to critique it at all? Give their opinion of the movement as a whole and all its parts? No one said all feminism is evil or anything.

 

[Me Myself]

The only reason all of hat was mentioned was because some posters came in and said why have a masculism dir when we have feminism dir.

 

[Revoltingest]

Explain.

One who doesn't believe in Allah does not believe in Islam.
One who believes in disparate treatment of men (eg, affirmative action) may be a feminist.
Thus, the analogy has significant differences.

I don't understand.

You posted something to which none of us object.
From this, I infer that you believe there to be objection.
Since there isn't, my inference would be moot.

Among my people(nerds, geeks, and gamers in particular), which is where I focus my efforts, men don't really have any issues unique to them. Women, however, suffer all kinds of abuse.

This would be an excellent reason for someone to be a feminist.
Contrary to what many appear to feel, I've no resentment to feminists or feminism in general.
I've even said it's "useful" (high praise for me).
I judge people as individuals, rather than by the group they belong to.
So I will have harsh criticism for some, & high praise for others.
But I will rely upon my observations about the group when deciding whether I consider myself belonging or not.

 

[freethinker44]

What if Judaism is seen as a false religion by Christians?

RF doesn't allow Christians to use their DIR for the purpose of criticizing Judaism.

If you see feminism as having a matriarchal element, by all means put it in the open debates.

Actually, that is probably exactly what I would do. I don't really like posting in DIRs. I prefer open discussion or debate. Not that I am against DIRs, I just don't like limiting myself or censoring myself in any way.

But look at it this way....would you like to see the Feminist Only forum be overtaken by people who see misogyny in Masculism and want to bellyache about it?

That is exactly what I expect it to become.

 

[Me Myself]

A lot of issues regarding men's rights have been discussed.

Critiques on specific actions for feminist movements or whatever correspond igeneral debates not on a DIR, as far as I understand RF rules.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't really like posting in DIRs. I prefer open discussion or debate. Not that I am against DIRs, I just don't like limiting myself or censoring myself in any way.

I agree. But I probably give the impression otherwise when I blather on & on about supporting a new DIR. I prefer that most DIRs be green, so that non-members may have civil & peaceful questions. This really works for me with Buddhists (a very inclusive & heathen friendly bunch) in their DIR.

 

[Draka]

To me this all just smells of hushing men. Men are already led to believe that it is "unmanly" to talk of their feelings or discuss certain things. I mean, look at the stuff that rolled out of Rick..."man up", "grow balls", "belly aching". Now we have the argument that if they want to discuss certain things they can discuss them in the feminist area because to not do so somehow means that they must be wanting to complain about feminism or such stuff. It's as if they aren't to have a voice about themselves and personal issues.

 

[Me Myself]

I dont understand why a voice for men's issues cant have its own forum.

I can understand closing it if it happens to not be used too often, but I am very interested on seeing what subject and threads come up there. I am interested in people(of any gender) coming in an talking about such issues and listening to their points of view.

I have no idea why this seems so controversial honestly. I think a tryout would be fair.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

LOL, how would you like to be stationed in a place where all the posts like this are moved to, where you can either refute them or "out caricature" {can't come up with quite the right word} them and demonstrate that you have the largest gonads on the forum? Perhaps that is what we really need?

It's more of a persona than a caricature, but I agree that that's what we really need.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree. But I probably give the impression otherwise when I blather on & on about supporting a new DIR. I prefer that most DIRs be green, so that non-members may have civil & peaceful questions. This really works for me with Buddhists (a very inclusive & heathen friendly bunch) in their DIR.

Not disagreeing, but I want to remind that blue DIRs are supposed to also allow civil and peaceful questions.

The difference with green DIRs is that "outsiders" are not expected to restrain from giving any answers in the green ones; we just must be careful and respectful.

 

[crossfire]

LOL, how would you like to be stationed in a place where all the posts like this are moved to, where you can either refute them or "out caricature" {can't come up with quite the right word} them and demonstrate that you have the largest gonads on the forum? Perhaps that is what we really need?

It's more of a persona than a caricature, but I agree that that's what we really need.

Then I shall hide my comment so as not to further detract from this thread:

Spoiler: off topic

Then I shall nominate you for a special "devourer of feces" award in this awards cycle!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

To me this all just smells of hushing men. Men are already led to believe that it is "unmanly" to talk of their feelings or discuss certain things. I mean, look at the stuff that rolled out of Rick..."man up", "grow balls", "belly aching". Now we have the argument that if they want to discuss certain things they can discuss them in the feminist area because to not do so somehow means that they must be wanting to complain about feminism or such stuff. It's as if they aren't to have a voice about themselves and personal issues.

Yeah, did you read my thread in the Feminist Only forum about what I dream for men and boys? Apparently not, since it was all about fathers and how I want a world where men did not feel as if they needed to live up to the stoic Marlboro Man stereotype. So excuse me if I take issue with your contention that feminists just want men to shut up.

I am in no way about hushing men. I am about correcting misrepresentations about feminism, but never about telling men they have to be quiet.

Once again, I support the creation of a Masculinist Only forum. I think those who support the ideas have certain issues that they ought to discuss.

I have a husband and three teenaged and grown sons that I love dearly. On our sons' 18th birthdays they heard an earful about how discriminatory selected service is, and that 18 year old women should register for it, too. Obviously, we did celebrate since one of our sons turned 16 on the same day, but when the topic came up about registering for selected service, Mama Mystic became rather outspoken and teary-eyed.

So, listen, think what you want about feminists and if they really care about boys and men or not. But if you make an accusation like this, understand I'll correct misrepresentations to you and to how I really feel, which is that I want equality and protection for my sons as much as for my daughter.

 

[Alceste]

I honestly dont see any reason to look at it as a confrontational thing among feministsvs masculists.

I look forward for Alceste's viewpoint on the subjects she mentioned, and I am sure it will be interesting conversation, regardess of whether we will agree or not

Because I regard anyone who is forth men's rights to be a masculist. Alceste fits the profile AFAIK

Well, to be completely clear, I advocate for a gender-blind, race-blind, universally accessible society, at home, at work, at school, etc. There are some issues where that simply isn't possible due to specific biological differences (for example, only women get pregnant, so issues surrounding women's reproductive health are uniquely the province of women - likewise, male reproductive health is their own business.) So where men are disadvantaged - for example the discrimination of international NGOs and charities against male victims of sexual violence - I will advocate for their rights. Not because they are "men's rights", but because they are human rights.

Exactly. Read what the guys just wrote Mystic. There are going to be issues that some men are just not going to be comfortable with going into the feminism forum to discuss. Why go there to discuss them when they could have their own place for such issues? If the women have their own place to discuss issues which affect them, why not have one for the men? It really isn't all about "the shortcomings of feminism". Why can't the men just have a place of their own and be comfortable posting in it?

There are lots of men posting in the Feminist DIR. You don't have to be a woman to identify as a feminist or discuss feminist philosophy. These male feminists have been welcomed with open arms. Mystic has a thread there specifically to talk about men's issues. I feel like you're severely misrepresenting the forum by calling it "a place for women to discuss issues which affect them". It's "a place for feminists to discuss issues that affect everybody".

You'll note that I do occasionally post in some other threads on RF.
I've even started a couple of my own.

At this moment, what is important is not that I need to go there, but rather the rigid exclusion based upon murky criteria.
Were it not for the wrangling about exclusionary practices, we'd be discussing something entirely else.

The criteria is totally simple. Are you a feminist? If you answered "yes", you're welcome in the Feminist DIR. Are you unsure whether or not you're a feminist? If you answered "yes" you should do a bit of research and tread very lightly in the DIR, and do your best to avoid criticizing the movement in that DIR. Are you definitely not a feminist? Then lurk to your heart's content. We'll probably turn you into one eventually, then you can start posting.

FYI, we scored the same on that silly test.

None of that looked like bashing to me. It was as Me Myself said. Issues were brought up, it was mentioned that issues could be discussed in the feminism area, concerns about feminism as a whole were brought up and how it would actually cover their concerns.

The term "feminism" is used to cover many different forms of "the movement". Some things people aren't comfortable with. Are you saying the mere discussing of this fact is "bashing"? No one is allowed to critique it at all? Give their opinion of the movement as a whole and all its parts? No one said all feminism is evil or anything.

If you're not a feminist, the place for discussing your criticism and discomfort with various aspects of feminism is the general discussion or debate forum. The reason we have a DIR is that sometimes we want to have other kinds of conversations, and it's tiresome to always be battling the same stereotypes and misapprehensions (including that feminism is mostly about bashing or blaming men, or men can't be feminists) in every single thread where feminism comes up.

To me this all just smells of hushing men. Men are already led to believe that it is "unmanly" to talk of their feelings or discuss certain things. I mean, look at the stuff that rolled out of Rick..."man up", "grow balls", "belly aching". Now we have the argument that if they want to discuss certain things they can discuss them in the feminist area because to not do so somehow means that they must be wanting to complain about feminism or such stuff. It's as if they aren't to have a voice about themselves and personal issues.

Again, there are as many men as women currently posting in the feminist DIR and they've been welcomed with open arms. Who is "hushing" men? We're all of us - male and female feminists alike - taking a break from the acrimony, ignorance and silliness of the feminist debates in the open forum. We want to talk about other stuff sometimes. Not continually do nothing but defend the whole existence of the movement against thoughtless, knee-jerk, reactionary anti-feminists.

 

[Me Myself]

Yeah, did you read my thread in the Feminist Only forum about what I dream for men and boys? Apparently not, since it was all about fathers and how I want a world where men did not feel as if they needed to live up to the stoic Marlboro Man stereotype. So excuse me if I take issue with your contention that feminists just want men to shut up.

Where did she say that?