Men's Issues/Masculism DIR

[Me Myself]

Why object to something which no one here is claiming?
This happens too often when discussing feminism, & derails the conversation.

I do wonder what inspired the whole post.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That is the rule, it is obvious, it applies to all, & I have repeated it myself.
Do you believe this is not moot?

Apparently not. People are saying they want a Masculinist DIR because they think "feminism" (note the quotation marks) is some elitist male-bashing fringe element that loves to hate hate hate. Or at the very least, feminists just don't do enough for the fellas out there. Therefore, because feminism falls short, or because people don't want to be seen as elitist or exclusivist in any way, they want to be a Masculinist.

IOW, watch how this entire discussion on whether or not a Masculinist Only forum is contingent upon how people see Feminism. My best guess is that if feminism is brought up here as the reason why they want to become a Masculinist (to counter what they see as shortcomings), it isn't too unreasonable to think those same people will bring up the shortcomings of Feminism in the Masculinist Only forum as well.

Which would be against RF rules and regulations.

I'm looking to see who will actually focus on men's issues. Period. Thus far, I see nothing. Just reactionaries to where people think feminism fails.

 

[Draka]

Feel free to discuss Masculinism with other like-minded people. I don't judge people's qualifications on whether or not they're feminists based on their genitalia. But I've rarely heard other feminists say that they do.

And....again.....for the 100th time....if you don't self-identify as a feminist, you don't have to. But feel free to read any of the threads in the Feminist Only forum to get a picture. And better yet, read some books written by feminists in years past to get an even bigger picture.

I will continue to object, however, to knee-jerk reactions that feminism is equivalent to misandry. It isn't. Never has been. Never will be. Misandry is it's own definition. Feminism fights patriarchy, not men.

I didn't say any of that. I just said I'm more comfortable discussing men's issues than "feminism" itself. Not equality or women's rights, but "feminism". The word, the movement, what-have-you. I know who I am and what I stand for and how I feel, but as for labeling myself as "feminist" or even "masculinist", I don't care for labels as those things tend to mean different things to different people. I am who I am and believe what I believe and no label is required nor desired for any of it.

Honestly, I'd just be happy with considering the areas as "women's issues" and "men's issues".

 

[Me Myself]

I don't see that as a challenge to masculism; just an opinion as to why we don't need a DIR for it. You have every right to believe otherwise and explain why without bashing other movements, too.

And no one bashed it, you asked why people started discussing about feminism (which you called "bashing") so I just pointed at you how it happened.

Someone put it in said it was on the subjects and that the DIR was not needed. Then it is said that it is good to have a different perspective on the issues and that their perspectives are not the only ones and suddenly we are bashing.

I must have skipped something important?

 

[freethinker44]

That's not what I mean. I'm talking about how the discussion seems to have devolved into one about feminism and its supposed shortcomings (or supposed shortcomings of some feminists) instead of focusing on the merits of the movement for which a DIR was proposed. That doesn't make me very optimistic about how threads in the proposed DIR might turn out.

Because it has been implied we don't need a DIR for mens issues because they can just be put in the feminist forum. So naturally the discussion shifts to why the feminist forum isn't suitable for men to discuss mens issues. I, for one, don't feel welcome or comfortable posting in the feminist forum. And I forget who posted it, but someone posted another members criteria for one to be considered feminist, which were all centered around women BTW, and had nothing to with men, and thus be allowed to post in the feminist DIR . I failed their criteria test so does that mean that I can't comment about mens issues because they are in the feminist DIR?

 

[Me Myself]

Apparently not. People are saying they want a Masculinist DIR because they think "feminism" (note the quotation marks) is some elitist male-bashing fringe element that loves to hate hate hate. Or at the

I am searching for a wuote like at in this thread and the closest thing .I find are jokes about it or strawmen or parody strawmen.

Could you quote the post I missed?

 

[Me Myself]

I honestly dont see any reason to look at it as a confrontational thing among feministsvs masculists.

I look forward for Alceste's viewpoint on the subjects she mentioned, and I am sure it will be interesting conversation, regardess of whether we will agree or not

Because I regard anyone who is forth men's rights to be a masculist. Alceste fits the profile AFAIK

 

[Debater Slayer]

The rules should be enforced in any DIR. Moreover, the mere possibility that there might be misbehavior could be applied to any DIR, & shouldn't be a standard applied solely to this one. But as you see, to discuss feminism & men's issues could be problematic for masculinists when feminists are so quick to take offense at any challenge by perceived outsiders.

Discussing men's issues is okay. For example, this would be okay:

I believe that we need masculism because [reasons here], which I don't think other movements cover.

That's focused on the merits of masculism and why it is needed, as opposed to, say, something like this:

Feminism is misandrist, and it propagates man-hating and bias against males.

As long as the focus isn't on "getting even" with another movement, there should be no problems. I'm not saying that you in particular intend to do that; it's just a concern I have after reading some posts here.

 

[Revoltingest]

Apparently not. People are saying they want a Masculinist DIR because they think "feminism" (note the quotation marks) is some elitist male-bashing fringe element that loves to hate hate hate.

Who is actually saying that here?

Or at the very least, feminists just don't do enough for the fellas out there. Therefore, because feminism falls short, or because people don't want to be seen as elitist or exclusivist in any way, they want to be a Masculinist.

If a male believes that feminists don't do enuf for his issues, then it makes sense to advocate for those issues himself. This focus would be called "masculinist". If you believe that feminists (as a group) focus equally on male & female issues, & that masculinism is a subset of feminism, then you will find many who disagree. This strikes me as a legitimate perspective & concern.

IOW, watch how this entire discussion on whether or not a Masculinist Only forum is contingent upon how people see Feminism. My best guess is that if feminism is brought up here as the reason why they want to become a Masculinist (to counter what they see as shortcomings), it isn't too unreasonable to think those same people will bring up the shortcomings of Feminism in the Masculinist Only forum as well.

Is this not due in part to (some) feminists here challenging the existence of their DIR, & the legitimacy of seeing inadequacy in feminism addressing their needs? If they come here & argue, they shouldn't complain about being in an argument.

Which would be against RF rules and regulations.

To merely discuss shortcomings of feminism without bashing would be prohibited?

I'm looking to see who will actually focus on men's issues. Period. Thus far, I see nothing. Just reactionaries to where people think feminism fails.

Again, this thread is full of feminists objecting to the thread & to criticism of feminism, so they play a big role in its current direction. Is this not the same concern which resulted in creation of the Feminist Only forum, ie, the desire to avoid derailing arguments?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I originally thought the idea of feminism and masculism forums was silly and unnecessary. However, if continues to bring out peoples' underlying problems and issues with the opposite gender and continues to feed growing tension and conflict, then at least it will make things a bit more interesting around here. Heck, maybe we should set up some other forums while we're at it - how about "man-hating lesbianism," "white supremacism," and "asian schoolgirl fetishism?"

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Discussing men's issues is okay. For example, this would be okay:



That's focused on the merits of masculism and why it is needed, as opposed to, say, something like this:



As long as the focus isn't on "getting even" with another movement, there should be no problems. I'm not saying that you in particular intend to do that; it's just a concern I have after reading some posts here.

Yes. :yes:

Better yet (and not as exaggerated, though I know you were making a point)....

I want a Masculinist Only forum because I don't feel comfortable posting in the Feminist Only forum, and I think Feminism fails to address X, Y, Z on men's issues.

 

[Draka]

And no one bashed it, you asked why people started discussing about feminism (which you called "bashing") so I just pointed at you how it happened.

Someone put it in said it was on the subjects and that the DIR was not needed. Then it is said that it is good to have a different perspective on the issues and that their perspectives are not the only ones and suddenly we are bashing.

I must have skipped something important?

Because it has been implied we don't need a DIR for mens issues because they can just be put in the feminist forum. So naturally the discussion shifts to why the feminist forum isn't suitable for men to discuss mens issues. I, for one, don't feel welcome or comfortable posting in the feminist forum. And I forget who posted it, but someone posted another members criteria for one to be considered feminist, which were all centered around women BTW, and had nothing to with men, and thus be allowed to post in the feminist DIR . I failed their criteria test so does that mean that I can't comment about mens issues because they are in the feminist DIR?

Exactly. Read what the guys just wrote Mystic. There are going to be issues that some men are just not going to be comfortable with going into the feminism forum to discuss. Why go there to discuss them when they could have their own place for such issues? If the women have their own place to discuss issues which affect them, why not have one for the men? It really isn't all about "the shortcomings of feminism". Why can't the men just have a place of their own and be comfortable posting in it?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Exactly. Read what the guys just wrote Mystic. There are going to be issues that some men are just not going to be comfortable with going into the feminism forum to discuss. Why go there to discuss them when they could have their own place for such issues? If the women have their own place to discuss issues which affect them, why not have one for the men? It really isn't all about "the shortcomings of feminism". Why can't the men just have a place of their own and be comfortable posting in it?

Seriously?

This isn't about a male forum and a female forum. Why don't you read what *I* posted? I don't judge what people identify with based on their genitalia. Do you?

 

[Me Myself]

I am honestly surprised. People come here and reject the DIR because "feminism" and then feminism is attacked when it is also said that we need a different focus for some issues and would like to have such a space?

Can someone search this thread and quote the three most hateful posts they find against feminism or something?

I dint get the bullying

 

[Draka]

I originally thought the idea of feminism and masculism forums was silly and unnecessary. However, if continues to bring out peoples' underlying problems and issues with the opposite gender and continues to feed growing tension and conflict, then at least it will make things a bit more interesting around here. Heck, maybe we should set up some other forums while we're at it - how about "man-hating lesbianism," "white supremacism," and "asian schoolgirl fetishism?"

Only if you dress up as an Asian schoolgirl complete with pig tails and post pics.

 

[Revoltingest]

Exactly. Read what the guys just wrote Mystic. There are going to be issues that some men are just not going to be comfortable with going into the feminism forum to discuss.

Moreover, we aren't even permitted to ask questions there, let alone discuss anything unless
one specifically proclaims to be a "feminist". I eschew that label for cultural reasons.
Sigh..by that standard, I might not qualify to post in a Masculinist Only thread either...unless it's green

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am honestly surprised. People come here and reject the DIR because "feminism" and then feminism is attacked when it is also said that we need a different focus for some issues and would like to have such a space?

Can someone search this thread and quote the three most hateful posts they find against feminism or something?

I dint get the bullying

Did you read where I support the creation of the Masculinist Only forum?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Only if you dress up as an Asian schoolgirl complete with pig tails and post pics.

That's just a typical Saturday night.

 

[Me Myself]

Seriously?

This isn't about a male forum and a female forum. Why don't you read what *I* posted? I don't judge what people identify with based on their genitalia. Do you?

why would you think she does? Have you even been reading what she is posting?

Tis is NOT about a male forum and a female forum. Anone who self identifies as a masculinist or men's rights advocate can post in e men issues DIR just as anyone who self identifies with feminism can post in the feminist DIR.

What are you reading that makes you think otherwise?

 

[Revoltingest]

Only if you dress up as an Asian schoolgirl complete with pig tails and post pics.

Don't encourage him. He alread sends me pix of himself dressed up as
something called a Sailor Moon. (He's actually quite fetching looking.)