Messiah in Islam

[Remté]

thus those who are well grounded in knowledge can know its interpretation.

Only Allah knows.

 

[sooda]

Yes, and yet Quran comfirms Jesus was Messiah. If He was Messiah in Quran, why He had no kingdom in Quran?

Not exactly.. I think the eschatology of Islam is very confusing. Shia and Sunni have different scenarios and Sunni have differences within their beliefs. In some the Mahdi and Jesus return.. in some Jesus is the Mahdi.. although my sense of it is that Sunnis are not so focused on the end times as Shia.

In the Koran Jesus is a prophet.. He is without sin and born of a virgin from mind of God.. but not exactly a messiah.

If you really want to get confused, King Cyrus was also considered a messiah....

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Only Allah knows.

Not only Allah, because Allah promised to explain His Book, after revealing it:


Allah in Quran says that, when He revealed Quran, after that it is Him who explains it (75:19).

Question is, how He has explained it? Did Allah fail to explain its verses, and left everyone in confusion? It cannot be!
The following verse is an evidence that, Ali had the knowledge of the Book:

“Those who disbelieve say: “You are no emissary (of Allah)”. Say: “God suffices as a witness between me and you (all), as well as the one who has knowledge of the Book”. (13:43)

According to both sunni and shia traditions, in the above verse, 'the one who has knowledge of the Book' is an allusion to Ali.

Also, the following verse is yet another evidence, the knowledge of Quran is within the breast of those who are given knowledge by God:

"Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses [preserved] within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.".(29:49)

Therefore according to Quran, Allah has given the knowledge of interpretation of Quran only to certain people. This is what He had said in Quran.
Question is, who are Them exactly, that Allah has given them knowledge? Any scholar, or specific people? Answer is in the following two verses:

...the knowledge of the Hidden Book is with those who are purified (77:77).
Thus He has made it clear, that only those who are purified are given the knowledge of the Hidden Book of God.
He has told in Quran, who the purified ones are. They are the People of the House (33:33).
According to both Shia and Sunni traditions, verse 33:33 are people of the house, including Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, and Hussein.

The above conclusions are compatible with verse 3:7 to be read as 'only God knows its interpretation and Those who are well-grounded in knowledge'.

 

[Remté]

Not only Allah, because Allah promised to explain His Book, after revealing it:


Allah in Quran says that, when He revealed Quran, after that it is Him who explains it (75:19).

This is about Allah explaining it to Muhammad the prophet.

Question is, how He has explained it? Did Allah fail to explain its verses, and left everyone in confusion? It cannot be!
The following verse is an evidence that, Ali had the knowledge of the Book:

“Those who disbelieve say: “You are no emissary (of Allah)”. Say: “God suffices as a witness between me and you (all), as well as the one who has knowledge of the Book”. (13:43)

According to both sunni and shia traditions, in the above verse, 'the one who has knowledge of the Book' is an allusion to Ali.

Never heard of such a thing. Where have you? Most translations use a plural form which refers to many people.

Also, the following verse is yet another evidence, the knowledge of Quran is within the breast of those who are given knowledge by God:

"Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses [preserved] within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.".(29:49)

Or simply those who know the scriptures.

Therefore according to Quran, Allah has given the knowledge of interpretation of Quran only to certain people. This is what He had said in Quran.
Question is, who are Them exactly, that Allah has given them knowledge? Any scholar, or specific people? Answer is in the following two verses:

...the knowledge of the Hidden Book is with those who are purified (77:77).
Thus He has made it clear, that only those who are purified are given the knowledge of the Hidden Book of God.
He has told in Quran, who the purified ones are. They are the People of the House (33:33).
According to both Shia and Sunni traditions, verse 33:33 are people of the house, including Muhammad, Ali, Hassan, and Hussein.

I don't know what is the 77:77. Ayat 33:33 is not agreed upon as to its meaning. And Shia and Sunni Muslims certainly have differences of opinion regarding it. Over all I have no idea how this gets you to any conclusion at all.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is about Allah explaining it to Muhammad the prophet.

It is outwardly addressed to Muhammad, but, when you look at the other verses I quoted, the knowledge of Quran is given to more than one person, as those verses are expressed in plural.
Either way, it is not only Allah who knows it, but also Those who Allah has given Them the knowledge.

Never heard of such a thing. Where have you? Most translations use a plural form which refers to many people.

It is not my fault if you cannot read Arabic. The Arabic word is not plural.
We cannot make up Tafseer from ourselves. The verses needs to be understood within their historical context, and the most reliable historical context comes from Authentic Hadithes.

Or simply those who know the scriptures.
I don't know what is the 77:77. Ayat 33:33 is not agreed upon as to its meaning. And Shia and Sunni Muslims certainly have differences of opinion regarding it. Over all I have no idea how this gets you to any conclusion at all.

No, look at Traditions as recorded in Shia and Sunnis. In this case the Traditions do agree pretty much.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not exactly.. I think the eschatology of Islam is very confusing. Shia and Sunni have different scenarios and Sunni have differences within their beliefs. In some the Mahdi and Jesus return.. in some Jesus is the Mahdi.. although my sense of it is that Sunnis are not so focused on the end times as Shia.

In the Koran Jesus is a prophet.. He is without sin and born of a virgin from mind of God.. but not exactly a messiah.

If you really want to get confused, King Cyrus was also considered a messiah....

I have spent quite long time looking into prophecies of Mahdi and Christ from both Shia and Sunni Sources. I agree, the Prophecies appear to be very unclear.
But what can be seen, from both sources, there are two promised ones. In Shia sources, usually the first promised One is known as the 12th Imam, whose lineage goes back to Muhammad. The second promised One is return of Imam Hussein.
In Sunni traditions, the first person is known as Mahdi, and the next person return of Christ.
There is a Hadith found in both Shia and Sunni that says "No mahdi, except for Christ" .
This Hadith is true in my opinion, but it does not mean to be taken literally. It means that the first Promised One and the second promised One, although are two individuals, but spiritually the same. If you read the traditions, you see, the First promised one dies after seven years. The second promised One, metaphorically is return of the first Person. In the same way that Elijah and John were One person, so are Mahdi and Christ.
In Quran, Jesus specifically is called the Messiah.

Now, I said in Shia there are Two promised Ones: the 12th Imam and return of Hussein. In Sunni traditions also two promised ones: Mahdi and Christ. But if we look the prophesies spiritually both Shia and Sunni sources are saying the same thing. Because neither Jesus literally will return nor Imam Hussein. But a new person, who Spiritually is the same as Jesus and Hussein, in the same way that Jonh was return of Elijah, though another individual.
I hope i didnt make you too confused with all these

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It has a meaning; anointed which isn't restricted to the use of Jewish people.

The Quran confirms that what is known as Torah is ruined by the Jews. So the Quran does not confirm the Torah.

I haven't decided upon it - the Islamic scholars have. And surely Muhammad the prophet would have mentioned it if Jesus was a king, but he didn't. Neither does the Quran; Jesus was not a king, had no kingdom and was not intented to have one.

I do not know a certain reason why Jesus is called a Messiah. I have offered you one which of course was not made up by me. And I have another one which is simply the fact that he was anointed to serve God.

There is no verse in the entire Quran, or even an Authentic hadith, saying Torah or Injil was corrupted. That is again another misunderstanding. What Quran confirms, is, both Jews and Christians, made corruption in interpretations. Not the actual Text of Injil or Torah was altered, but alteration was made in translations and interpretations.

 

[sooda]

I have spent quite long time looking into prophecies of Mahdi and Christ from both Shia and Sunni Sources. I agree, the Prophecies appear to be very unclear.
But what can be seen, from both sources, there are two promised ones. In Shia sources, usually the first promised One is known as the 12th Imam, whose lineage goes back to Muhammad. The second promised One is return of Imam Hussein.
In Sunni traditions, the first person is known as Mahdi, and the next person return of Christ.
There is a Hadith found in both Shia and Sunni that says "No mahdi, except for Christ" .
This Hadith is true in my opinion, but it does not mean to be taken literally. It means that the first Promised One and the second promised One, although are two individuals, but spiritually the same. If you read the traditions, you see, the First promised one dies after seven years. The second promised One, metaphorically is return of the first Person. In the same way that Elijah and John were One person, so are Mahdi and Christ.
In Quran, Jesus specifically is called the Messiah.

Now, I said in Shia there are Two promised Ones: the 12th Imam and return of Hussein. In Sunni traditions also two promised ones: Mahdi and Christ. But if we look the prophesies spiritually both Shia and Sunni sources are saying the same thing. Because neither Jesus literally will return nor Imam Hussein. But a new person, who Spiritually is the same as Jesus and Hussein, in the same way that Jonh was return of Elijah, though another individual.
I hope i didnt make you too confused with all these

You have a better grasp of the subject than I do.. and I think you're accurate.

 

[sooda]

There is no verse in the entire Quran, or even an Authentic hadith, saying Torah or Injil was corrupted. That is again another misunderstanding. What Quran confirms, is, both Jews and Christians, made corruption in interpretations. Not the actual Text of Injil or Torah was altered, but alteration was made in translations and interpretations.

I have heard Muslims say that Jews an Christians were the recipients of earlier revelations.

 

[Remté]

There is no verse in the entire Quran, or even an Authentic hadith, saying Torah or Injil was corrupted. That is again another misunderstanding. What Quran confirms, is, both Jews and Christians, made corruption in interpretations. Not the actual Text of Injil or Torah was altered, but alteration was made in translations and interpretations.

4:45

"Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe."
5:41"O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

4:45

"Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, and say: "We hear and we disobey"; and "Hear what is not Heard"; and "Ra'ina"; with a twist of their tongues and a slander to Faith. If only they had said: "What hear and we obey"; and "Do hear"; and "Do look at us"; it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allah hath cursed them for their Unbelief; and but few of them will believe."
5:41"O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."​

Yes, all of it denotes misinterpretations, and misrepresenting, twisting the meanings of the holy books. There is nothing about writing false ideas in the holy book! The idea of corrupting the text of injil and torah are all made up by some of the Muslim leaders, and then spread to the whole community of Islam. And if you ask them, when and where and who did it, they have no answer!

 

[sooda]

Yes, all of it denotes misinterpretations, and misrepresenting, twisting the meanings of the holy books. There is nothing about writing false ideas in the holy book! The idea of corrupting the text of injil and torah are all made up by some of the Muslim leaders, and then spread to the whole community of Islam. And if you ask them, when and where and who did it, they have no answer!

Are you convinced there are NO errors in the Old Testament?

 

[Remté]

Yes, all of it denotes misinterpretations, and misrepresenting, twisting the meanings of the holy books. There is nothing about writing false ideas in the holy book! The idea of corrupting the text of injil and torah are all made up by some of the Muslim leaders, and then spread to the whole community of Islam. And if you ask them, when and where and who did it, they have no answer!

Based on what do you say so? Besides, there are notable differences in the stories. Moses for instance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you convinced there are NO errors in the Old Testament?

I am convinved the Koran gives us a balance we can use to ensure what is recorded in the Bible can be used for our spiritual growth.

All these writings are directed at teaching us about the same One God/Allah.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

Based on what do you say so? Besides, there are notable differences in the stories. Moses for instance.

Moses may have been borrowed from the story of Sinuhe the physician which was very popular in Egypt long before the story of Moses.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Based on what do you say so? Besides, there are notable differences in the stories. Moses for instance.

It depends from what prespective you look at it.
From Quranic verses, there are verses, which asks the Christian and Jews who lived at the time of Muhammad, to use the injil and torah. If Quran believed those Books are corrupted, it wouldnt ask anyone to use them. Besides, all other verses which talks about corruption, are speaking of misinterpretations and twisting the words to suit their own agenda.
From a divinity prespective, if injil got corrupted, God would have sent a prophet to correct it imediately. Muhammad came 600 years after Jesus. It doesnt make sense God leave generations of people with a corrupted Book for centuries.
From a logical prespective, Christians had believed in their own Holy Book to be from God. One who believes the Book is from God, does not dare to corrupt it. Besides, it is not like there was only one copy that someone secretly corrupts it. Those Holy Books were spread in several nations. How can they go and corrupt all of them?
From scholarly or historical prespective there is no evidence these Holy Books changed. (Some neglegible inaccuracies are found due to error in copying, but nothing that changes the truth, or the core beliefs, such as cruicification of Jesus, or stories of Moses).
There is no contrediction between the Quran and the Bible either. The Quran just makes allusions and refers to some stories of the Bible and expresses them in a more brief form as a reminder.

 

[sooda]

It depends from what prespective you look at it.
From Quranic verses, there are verses, which asks the Christian and Jews who lived at the time of Muhammad, to use the injil and torah. If Quran believed those Books are corrupted, it wouldnt ask anyone to use them. Besides, all other verses which talks about corruption, are speaking of misinterpretations and twisting the words to suit their own agenda.
From a divinity prespective, if injil got corrupted, God would have sent a prophet to correct it imediately. Muhammad came 600 years after Jesus. It doesnt make sense God leave generations of people with a corrupted Book for centuries.
From a logical prespective, Christians had believed in their own Holy Book to be from God. One who believes the Book is from God, does not dare to corrupt it. Besides, it is not like there was only one copy that someone secretly corrupts it. Those Holy Books were spread in several nations. How can they go and corrupt all of them?
From scholarly or historical prespective there is no evidence these Holy Books changed. (Some neglegible inaccuracies are found due to error in copying, but nothing that changes the truth, or the core beliefs, such as cruicification of Jesus, or stories of Moses).
There is no contrediction between the Quran and the Bible either. The Quran just makes allusions and refers to some stories of the Bible and expresses them in a more brief form as a reminder.

Judah and Israel had different stories that were cobbled together around the time of King Omri.. That's why you have doublets in Genesis.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Judah and Israel had different stories that were cobbled together around the time of King Omri.. That's why you have doublets in Genesis.

Please quote from the Bible. Im sorry not sure what part you are talikng about.

 

[sooda]

Please quote from the Bible. Im sorry not sure what part you are talikng about.

I am talking about the contradictions in the story of creation (Adam and Eve) and the contradictions in the story of Noah's flood.

I'm not going to put all of Genesis here.

Let me see if I can find something for you to read and compare.

 

[sooda]

The following are the most commonly cited doublets:

The Creation Narrative (Genesis 1-2)

The Flood Narrative (Genesis 6-8)

The Selling of Joseph (Genesis 37:25-28, 36)

Abraham's Half-Truth: passing Sarah off as his sister (Genesis 12: 10-20; 20:1-18; 26:6-11)