Messiah in Islam

[InvestigateTruth]

So how could they have been corrupted?

When did Allah say, they got corrupted? They are not. Allah keeps asking Jews and Christians to stand by those Holy Books.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The meaning of Messiah in arabic has the same meaning as in Hebrew.
He was never called a King in the Quran nor hadiths.





There's a difference in the interpretation because the texts are differents. Why are they different ? That's the question i'm asking you

About Joseph

BIBLE :
37.33 He (Jacob) recognized it and said, “It is my son’s robe! Some ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been torn to pieces.”

QURAN :
18. And they brought his shirt, with fake blood on it. He (Jacob) said, “Your souls enticed you to do something. But patience is beautiful, and God is my Help against what you describe.”



BIBLE :
45.26 They told him, “Joseph is still alive! In fact, he is ruler of all Egypt.” Jacob was stunned; he did not believe them.

QURAN :
12.94 And when the caravan departed [from Egypt], their father said, "Indeed, I find the smell of Joseph [and would say that he was alive] if you did not think me weakened in mind."

12.96 And when the bearer of good tidings arrived, he cast it over his face, and he [Jacob] returned [once again] seeing. He said, "Did I not tell you that I know from Allah that which you do not know?"


Since the Beginning Jacob knew that Joseph was alive because Joseph told to his father about his vision.
12.4 "When Joseph said to his father, “O my father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun, and the moon; I saw them bowing down to me.”
If Jacob in the Bible believed that his son died so how can he explains the vision of Joseph ?

What about Aaron ?

BIBLE :
32.4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

32.5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”

QURAN :
20.87 They (Israelites) said, “We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did the Samirī throw.”

20.90 And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], “O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order.”

Clearly in the Bible Aaron is the one who built the calf.
And here what Allah said about those who took a part in it :
"7.152 Indeed, those who took the calf [for worship] will obtain anger from their Lord and humiliation in the life of this world, and thus do We recompense the inventors [of falsehood].

Where in the Bible or the Quran it was said that Aaron was touched by Allah's anger ?
Also there's the verse about the Angels eating while they came to see Abraham while in the Quran the Angels didn't eat.
And what about Solomon who prayed other gods ? While not in the Quran


1 Kings 11.4 -6
As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites.
So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.

Quran 2.102
102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved.

And we can go on. There's clearly big differences which are not only a question of interpretations.



27.76 This Quran relates to the Children of Israel most of what they differ about.

Hello pastek,

The word Messiah originated from Hebrew. It did not start from Arabic. Later it entered to Arabic.
In Hebrew, this word denote a Leader, and typically a King. They had a ceremony that, they used an oil, to anoint a person as a Leader.
In Quran and Traditions Jesus is not a Worldly king. Neither in Christian Bible, Jesus is a King.
But one of the reasons Jews rejected Jesus, was because He was not an anointed Leader. He was from a poor Carpenter family.
My intention in bringing this up, is to say, the way God uses Words in not always literal. There is a sense of Spiritual and Symbolism in His Words sometimes. Jesus is not literally an anointed Messiah. But He was a Messenger of God, and in that sense He was a King, due to His station. He was passing the commands of God to people.
The lesson is, literalism has been one of the causes of rejection of Spiritual truth. When people take everything literal in Holy Books, they get mislead. See Quran, verse 3:7. Some of its verses are Symbolic.
I am asking you: can God speaks symbolically, or He is supposed to speak only literally? Huh?
If God calls someone King and chooses Him as a Leader, but people do not accept Him and reject to follow Him, is He still the King or not?

The differences you see between story of Joseph in the Bible and Quran, are not contradictions. The story in the Bible is by far more detailed than the One in the Quran. There is no reason Allah just repeats same details again, when they are already correctly preserved in Torah. He has given a summary and a brief description of the story as a reminder. I am asking you: can God summarize a precious story, and expressing it again showing other point of views? Or He is allowed to do that, huh?

 

[Pastek]

Interesting to see those verses side by side.... thanks.

Jews must have also worshipped Ashtoreth because they have found over 4,000 clay idols to her in Jerusalem.

Yes i saw a documentary about it. Apparently some worshipped other gods and that's why they found some statues in their homes.

Hello pastek,

If God calls someone King and chooses Him as a Leader, but people do not accept Him and reject to follow Him, is He still the King or not?

Salam,
Of course he is.
If you are saying that Jesus is a King according to Christians Scriptures, ok.
But if you ask muslims, we have no confirmation about this.
Anyway if you look at the hadiths concerning the return of Jesus he will be the Ruler.
So you can interpreat it as him being a Caliph a Leader or a King. But the word "king" is not specifically used to describe him.

The differences you see between story of Joseph in the Bible and Quran, are not contradictions. The story in the Bible is by far more detailed than the One in the Quran.

I agree there's much more details in the Bible but how can you not see the differences ? It's quite obvious

There is no reason Allah just repeats same details again, when they are already correctly preserved in Torah. He has given a summary and a brief description of the story as a reminder. I am asking you: can God summarize a precious story, and expressing it again showing other point of views? Or He is allowed to do that, huh?

When in the Bible it says that Aaron built the calf and in the Quran it was said the Samiri did it and precise that Aaron didn't take any part in it, you have to face the fact that it's not about adding/omitting some elements.
It's about if a prophet of God can mislead intentionally people. Creating or worshipping other gods.

What was said about Aaron and Solomon concerning their supposed disbelief is not something that we should see as details that "we didn't have" in the Quran.
It is in the Quran to expose things said about some prophets that wasn't true.

Look for exemple what was said to the Prophet Muhammad if he had follow the polytheists :

Surah 17
73. They almost lured you (Muhammad) away from what We have revealed to you, so that you would invent something else in Our name. (...)

74. Had We not given you stability, you might have inclined towards them a little.

75. Then We would have made you taste double in life, and double at death; then you would have found for yourself no helper against Us.

76. They almost provoked you, to expel you from the land. In that case, they would not have lasted after you, except briefly.


77. The tradition of the messengers We sent before you—you will find no change in Our rules.

So why this didn't happen to Aaron ?
It would be contradictory to the Quran if we akwnoledge that he worshipped (or lead people to do so) another god and nothing happened to him.

Surah 20
29.30 And appoint an assistant for me, from my family Aaron, my brother.
31.32 Strengthen me with him And have him share in my mission.
33. That we may glorify You much.

Sourah 28
35. He (Allah) said, “We will strengthen your arm with your brother, and We will give you authority, so they will not touch you. By virtue of Our signs, you and those who follow you will be the triumphant.”

Aaron was here to help Moses, not to turn people against God.
So we can't see things different in the Bible and say it's just their own interpretations.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes i saw a documentary about it. Apparently some worshipped other gods and that's why they found some statues in their homes.



Salam,
Of course he is.
If you are saying that Jesus is a King according to Christians Scriptures, ok.
But if you ask muslims, we have no confirmation about this.
Anyway if you look at the hadiths concerning the return of Jesus he will be the Ruler.
So you can interpreat it as him being a Caliph a Leader or a King. But the word "king" is not specifically used to describe him.



I agree there's much more details in the Bible but how can you not see the differences ? It's quite obvious



When in the Bible it says that Aaron built the calf and in the Quran it was said the Samiri did it and precise that Aaron didn't take any part in it, you have to face the fact that it's not about adding/omitting some elements.
It's about if a prophet of God can mislead intentionally people. Creating or worshipping other gods.

What was said about Aaron and Solomon concerning their supposed disbelief is not something that we should see as details that "we didn't have" in the Quran.
It is in the Quran to expose things said about some prophets that wasn't true.

Look for exemple what was said to the Prophet Muhammad if he had follow the polytheists :

Surah 17
73. They almost lured you (Muhammad) away from what We have revealed to you, so that you would invent something else in Our name. (...)

74. Had We not given you stability, you might have inclined towards them a little.

75. Then We would have made you taste double in life, and double at death; then you would have found for yourself no helper against Us.

76. They almost provoked you, to expel you from the land. In that case, they would not have lasted after you, except briefly.


77. The tradition of the messengers We sent before you—you will find no change in Our rules.

So why this didn't happen to Aaron ?
It would be contradictory to the Quran if we akwnoledge that he worshipped (or lead people to do so) another god and nothing happened to him.

Surah 20
29.30 And appoint an assistant for me, from my family Aaron, my brother.
31.32 Strengthen me with him And have him share in my mission.
33. That we may glorify You much.

Sourah 28
35. He (Allah) said, “We will strengthen your arm with your brother, and We will give you authority, so they will not touch you. By virtue of Our signs, you and those who follow you will be the triumphant.”

Aaron was here to help Moses, not to turn people against God.
So we can't see things different in the Bible and say it's just their own interpretations.

1. The Messiah is describes as a Ruler in the Jewish scriptures, but when He came He was not literally a Ruler. Instead they crucified Him. Why is that?
Whether you think He was crucified or the Jews thought they crucified Him, but they did not, is irrelevant. Messiah is described in Torah as a Ruler, not someone Carpenter, who comes and then God cause Him to sky and scape, and come back.
2. Aaron is sinless. Just because the Bible describes stories which appears to say Aaron mislead them, it does not mean the Book is corrupted. In Bible, sometimes God addresses the Sins of people through their Prophet. Muhammad is also Sinless. But in Quran it is said He asks forgiveness for His sins. Do you know the verse?
The reason that make sense to me, and I accept it, is because, I believe God does not reveal literal history in His Books. But if I thought God speaks literal history and literal events, then I would have same problems as you do. Muhammad represents His people, as a King who Rules over His people. Then when God wants to blame the community of the Prophet, and teaches them to ask for forgiveness of Sins, He indirectly teaches this act, by addressing the Prophet. This is His mercy and Wisdom, so that He is not directly harsh on them. So, you see Muhammad asking for His sin to be forgiven to teach His people to ask for forgiveness. Same with the Prophet in the Bible.

 

[Remté]

It is not the first time followers of a religion claim finality. Jews, and Christians also take some verses from their Book to show it is the last one. But, like it or not, other religions came after them. There is a verse in Quran which says Muhammad is Khatam of Prophets. The Word Khatam is one of those words, which has multiple meanings. In fact, the literal meaning is ornament of ring, which was used to Stamp documents. When they translate it in English, they usually use the word 'Seal' instead of 'Stamp'. It is a nicer word, but a 'Seal' means 'Stamp'. The commentators of Quran, interpreted the Stamp of Prophets or Seal of Prophets to mean the last one. Their logic was that, when they stamp a document, it is finished. This is just an interpretation. A stamp is mainly used to confirm a document. It does not always mean it is finished. The document can be revised again.

It has in literal sense these days many meanings besides that, but your argument is weak.

These are some of the verses of Quran, which says, Quran Laws are useful only till the Manifestation of the Qaim.

I don't know why you mix your own beliefs with Islam. There is no Qaim in Islam. There is no Qaim that you speak of in the Quran. Muslims in general reject this idea completely.

The traditions are compatible with Quran, and are parallel, so, based on sayings of the Prophet and His sons, are authentic Hadithes.

I still don't know what this "traditions" means - it's an awfully vague term. I have no idea what you're referring to. Muhammad does not have sons. It is wrong to call them his sons. The Quran also says in the ayat we have spoken of 33:40:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." ​

These Prophecies are regarding the abrogation of Quranic Laws, and Revelation of a New Book, and New way of Life: "The Day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good through his Faith." (6:158). It is recorded in Bihar, that Imam Ali and Imam Sadiq said this verse denotes the advent of the awaited Qaim from us.

Can you quote the exact hadith? I tried but I fail to find it. All I know is that Bihar contains both authentic and inauthentic Ahadith and that I can't find any reference anywhere to the rest of these things above ^.

In another words, according to that verse, after Rise of Qaim, if someone had not believed in Quran before, but begins to believe in Quran after rise of Qaim, His belief will not do any good anymore, because, at that time, believing in Qaim, and His New Book will Profit him.

That ayat is obviously about the last day.

The Quranic evidence of abrogation of Quranic Laws is in surrah Al-Hajj: “Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33 Therefore according to the verse, the Quranic Rites are beneficial until their appointed time, then after that, Religious Laws are Referred to the Ancient House, which according to Recorded Traditions, is in Heaven. The term Ancient House in Islamic traditions is described as a heavenly Kabba, a place from where Quran was revealed to mankind. Thus, according to the above verse, after a certain time, these Quranic Laws go up again to the ancient house (meaning God will take then back, as no benefit in them anymore).

That's about the sacrificial ritual.

, and the time of ascension of the Quranic ordinances is in the 32nd Surrah: “He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.” 32:5 And the evidence of abrogation of Quran and coming of a new Book are in these Traditions recorded in Bihar and Al-Kafi: Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.” And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71: “On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71 And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."

In Al-kafi it is narrated that Imam MuhammadBaqir (a.s.) said: “... they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him.” (Meaning people do not agree to accept the new Book)!!. And in Bihar in another Hadith, Imam said, “Qaim rises with a new Cause, a new Book, new Judgement which is sever on Arabs.” The Quranic evidence of the Book being severe on Arabs is in Surrah AlQamar: "The Day the caller calls to an undesirable event" 56:6 It is recorded this verse is regarding, Imam Mahdi, who calls people to that which they dislike and deny.

..... Its not even worth my time.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." 5:3​

 

[Remté]

2. Aaron is sinless. Just because the Bible describes stories which appears to say Aaron mislead them, it does not mean the Book is corrupted. In Bible, sometimes God addresses the Sins of people through their Prophet. Muhammad is also Sinless. But in Quran it is said He asks forgiveness for His sins. Do you know the verse?
The reason that make sense to me, and I accept it, is because, I believe God does not reveal literal history in His Books. But if I thought God speaks literal history and literal events, then I would have same problems as you do. Muhammad represents His people, as a King who Rules over His people. Then when God wants to blame the community of the Prophet, and teaches them to ask for forgiveness of Sins, He indirectly teaches this act, by addressing the Prophet. This is His mercy and Wisdom, so that He is not directly harsh on them. So, you see Muhammad asking for His sin to be forgiven to teach His people to ask for forgiveness. Same with the Prophet in the Bible.

"Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe: for Allah knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes." 47:19​

It's not about his asking for forgiveness for others but about worship. He wants to be, like all real believers want to be, the best servant for Allah, so to speak. That is, he is aware of his shortcomings.

 

[Remté]

The differences you see between story of Joseph in the Bible and Quran, are not contradictions. The story in the Bible is by far more detailed than the One in the Quran. There is no reason Allah just repeats same details again, when they are already correctly preserved in Torah.

The Qur'an says it is perfectly detailed.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It has in literal sense these days many meanings besides that, but your argument is weak. I don't know why you mix your own beliefs with Islam. There is no Qaim in Islam. There is no Qaim that you speak of in the Quran. Muslims in general reject this idea completely. I still don't know what this "traditions" means - it's an awfully vague term. I have no idea what you're referring to. Muhammad does not have sons. It is wrong to call them his sons. The Quran also says in the ayat we have spoken of 33:40:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." ​

Can you quote the exact hadith? I tried but I fail to find it. All I know is that Bihar contains both authentic and inauthentic Ahadith and that I can't find any reference anywhere to the rest of these things above ^. That ayat is obviously about the last day. That's about the sacrificial ritual. ..... Its not even worth my time.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." 5:3​

The links to Hadithes are in my last post. Just click on Blue colored links. Good luck!
You think because Qaim is not explicitly mentioned in Quran, then it is not in Quran. He is described in figurative language, not the clear language, in the same way that Muhammad is described in Injil and Torah in Figurative verses. In the same way that Jesus is described in Torah in Figurative language, not the clear verses.
I agree it is difficult to see. This is why Jews reject Jesus to fit with Messiah. The Christians reject Muhammad to fit in the Biblical Prophecies. They say Muhammad is not in the Bible. So, you say Qaim is not in the Quran. Anyways, this is how I see it. We can agree to disagree.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe: for Allah knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes." 47:19​

It's not about his asking for forgiveness for others but about worship. He wants to be, like all real believers want to be, the best servant for Allah, so to speak. That is, he is aware of his shortcomings.

I had this one in mind:

"Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path," 48:1-2

Obviously speaking of past and future Sins of Muhammad apparently. I don't take it literally true, do you? So, why when you see Prophets in Bible apparently had Sin, you take it literally, and insist their Book is corrupted? I think, discovery of truth requires fairness. I mean when it comes to Quran you try to justify things and defend it, but when it comes to Bible, you try to reject it. Do you see the bias?!

 

[jfietsam]

You don't have to marry a Jew to convert to Judaism

I don't know what synagogues you go to, but I went to one and just got stared at. My dad works for a small company with mostly Jewish coworkers and says it's a closed religion. I wanted to talk to a rabbi to find some direction in this confusing world, and I was told that a rabbi would not speak to me unless my mother or father was Jewish. The main emphasis was on mother though. So it's like they might be open to talking to me if my dad were Jewish, but they really expect my mother to be Jewish.

Well ain't that some racism if I've ever heard it. A poor young adult in search of help can't even get a half hour of a rabbi's time. I wonder what they do that makes their day too busy to help someone outside of their religion who has the same beliefs about God... Oh well, I'll just stay a lone wolf. It's just God and myself in this lonely world...

 

[Remté]

I had this one in mind:

"Lo! We have given thee (O Muhammad) a signal victory, That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path," 48:1-2

Obviously speaking of past and future Sins of Muhammad apparently. I don't take it literally true, do you?

Yes, I do. It was revealed after the treaty of Hudaibiyah. It speaks both for Muhammad and the rest of the Muslims. The meaning of it is indeed similar to the other such passage you quoted. Forgiveness of shortcomings.

So, why when you see Prophets in Bible apparently had Sin, you take it literally, and insist their Book is corrupted?

I don't insist it is corrupted because I decide to take it literally. I insist it is corrupted because God says so. I wouldn't know.

I think, discovery of truth requires fairness. I mean when it comes to Quran you try to justify things and defend it, but when it comes to Bible, you try to reject it. Do you see the bias?!

I don't think you are looking for the truth. You look for what you like and discard what you don't like and then you expect others to take what you like and discard what you don't like. This is not faith.

 

[sooda]

I don't know what synagogues you go to, but I went to one and just got stared at. My dad works for a small company with mostly Jewish coworkers and says it's a closed religion. I wanted to talk to a rabbi to find some direction in this confusing world, and I was told that a rabbi would not speak to me unless my mother or father was Jewish. The main emphasis was on mother though. So it's like they might be open to talking to me if my dad were Jewish, but they really expect my mother to be Jewish.

Well ain't that some racism if I've ever heard it. A poor young adult in search of help can't even get a half hour of a rabbi's time. I wonder what they do that makes their day too busy to help someone outside of their religion who has the same beliefs about God... Oh well, I'll just stay a lone wolf. It's just God and myself in this lonely world...

I'm not Jewish.. but you don't have to marry a Jew to convert. Find another synagogue .. Try Reformed.

 

[Pastek]

1. The Messiah is describes as a Ruler in the Jewish scriptures, but when He came He was not literally a Ruler. Instead they crucified Him. Why is that?
Whether you think He was crucified or the Jews thought they crucified Him, but they did not, is irrelevant. Messiah is described in Torah as a Ruler, not someone Carpenter, who comes and then God cause Him to sky and scape, and come back.

We don't have any description of what is supposed to be a Messiah, we were just told it was Jesus, point.
This is a question you should ask christians about.

In fact I don't understand what all this discussion is about.
I don't understand what is the problem about Jesus being a carpenter and coming back.

2. Aaron is sinless. Just because the Bible describes stories which appears to say Aaron mislead them, it does not mean the Book is corrupted.
In Bible, sometimes God addresses the Sins of people through their Prophet.

That doesn't make sens at all.

Actually i've heard some saying that prophets are just human beings and aren't sinless and that the Quran tries to show them as perfect but they were not.
That's what i've read many times in this forum.

Muhammad is also Sinless. But in Quran it is said He asks forgiveness for His sins. Do you know the verse?

You have to understand that the questions concerning sins while we're talking about prophets are never about disbelief.
All the prophets ask for forgiveness anyway.

Then when God wants to blame the community of the Prophet, and teaches them to ask for forgiveness of Sins, He indirectly teaches this act, by addressing the Prophet.

You are talking without proof.
Because you don't know how to deal with some verses you choose to say it's not litteral.
Not all verses are litterals, there's some methaphors even in the Quran and we know that Jesus talked in parables.
But what you say doesn't make any sense.

It's just like saying God would blame Jesus and make people think he sinned because God wants to "teach" through him how to ask for forgiveness.

 

[sooda]

We don't have any description of what is supposed to be a Messiah, we were just told it was Jesus, point.
This is a question you should ask christians about.

In fact I don't understand what all this discussion is about.
I don't understand what is the problem about Jesus being a carpenter and coming back.



That doesn't make sens at all.

Actually i've heard some saying that prophets are just human beings and aren't sinless and that the Quran tries to show them as perfect but they were not.
That's what i've read many times in this forum.



You have to understand that the questions concerning sins while we're talking about prophets are never about disbelief.
All the prophets ask for forgiveness anyway.



You are talking without proof.
Because you don't know how to deal with some verses you choose to say it's not litteral.
Not all verses are litterals, there's some methaphors even in the Quran and we know that Jesus talked in parables.
But what you say doesn't make any sense.

It's just like saying God would blame Jesus and make people think he sinned because God wants to "teach" through him how to ask for forgiveness.

The Messiah expected by the Jews was supposed to be an anointed warrior king descended from Jesse and David who would vanquish the enemies of the Jews.. presumably the Romans who occupied Palestine.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We don't have any description of what is supposed to be a Messiah, we were just told it was Jesus, point.
This is a question you should ask christians about.

In fact I don't understand what all this discussion is about.
I don't understand what is the problem about Jesus being a carpenter and coming back.
.

@Remté and @Pastek
I see There is a fundamental problem with believing Bible is corrupted, and you seem to not willing to look at it.
You are saying Muhammad is propheside in the Bible. Therefore the Bible should guide Christians and Jews to Accepting Muhammad. But if the Bible is corrupted, how can they be guided to accept Muhammad? You say God protected Quran from corruption. Why didnt He protect Bible, so, the Christians and Jews can be guided by it to accept Muhammad? Where is the logic in this? You say Quran is the Last Book. Assuming this is true. That does not mean God would not protect the Bible from corruption so they may be guided to Quran, the last Book according to your belief. Why should God expect Christians and jews to believe in Muhammad, when their Book does not mention Muhammad?
Why didn't God leave a clear verse in Bible, stating clearly, that There will come a Messenger whose name is Muhammad in the year 600Ad, in arabia, with a Book called Quran. Was God incapable of doing this and protect the verse to remain till now, so, all may know Muhammad was truely prophesied?
Suppose some Scribes corrupted the Bible, according to your belief, and changed the verses about Muhammad. What is the fault of all other jews and christians who were not involved in corrupting their Book? Your story is like christians, saying because Adam sinned, all humanity is inhereting sin from Adam. Do you see how your story does not match with God, the Just, All knowing, the All powerful? The way you make it look, is as if God is unfair, incapable, or not wise to let His holy books get corrupted, and still blame all christians and jews for not believing in Muhammad. Can you explain how all this is acceptable to you? You seem to be just thinking, because some Muslims were lucky and born in a Muslim family, they are on the right path. But what about all those Chriatians who live today? If their Book contained clearly about Muhammad, they would surely accept Muhammad. So, why should they believe in Muhammad?



The same issue was important about Messiah. You are saying Muhammad and Messiah was promised to Jews, but their Book which contained all the signs to recognize Jesus and Muhammad are corrupted. So, how can a sincere Jew today, recognize that Jesus was truely their Messiah? Their Holy Book says, Messiah is supposed to be a king. But when Jesus came He was not king, therefore they cannot believe in Jesus. What is the fault of Jews today? According to what you believe The Jews who live today were not the ones who were involved in corrupting their Books. So, why should the Jews today suffer from the act of those scribes who lived long ago? How is this fair of a God?

The problem with your reasoning is, you claim Islam is complete and is able to guide all humanity to the right path, but if I ask you, how would a sincere jew supposed to believe in Jesus and the Muhammad, you say, it is not the problem of Islam. I say, It is the problem of Islam, because You claim Islam is from God, and is the best guidence for All sincere ones. Shouldnt Islam have all the answers to guide all to the religion, the uncorrupted one?

 

[sooda]

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until Shiloh comes".

Some Muslims teach that "Shiloh" is the Muhammed.

Genesis 49:8-12 Until Shiloh Comes

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You are talking without proof.
Because you don't know how to deal with some verses you choose to say it's not litteral.
Not all verses are litterals, there's some methaphors even in the Quran and we know that Jesus talked in parables.
But what you say doesn't make any sense.

It's just like saying God would blame Jesus and make people think he sinned because God wants to "teach" through him how to ask for forgiveness.

How should it be decided then, when to take verses literal and when not literal?
My logic is consistent without flaws. I believe Quran is word of God. It confirms Torah and injil to be from God. It never says these Books got corrupted. It never says, there were uncorrupted Books before, but later the got corrupted. When muslims make up this idea, it is completely a conjecture. Therefore all three Books, I believe are from God, and are the truth. How do i deside when a verse or story is not literal? Whenever taking it literally is illogical. Whenever taking it literal contredicts with another verse of Bible or Quran. But your way is different. You say whenever, bible does not make sense, or contradict Quran, it is because Bible is corrupted. Your approach has two main issues, at least. One is that, there is no verse in the whole Quran which says Bible is corrupted. So, you are putting words in the mouth of Allah. The second issue, i have already explained it in details in my previous post.
We can agree to disagree at this point.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until Shiloh comes".

Some Muslims teach that "Shiloh" is the Muhammed.

Genesis 49:8-12 Until Shiloh Comes

What must be considered is that the muslim Faith has no power of influence in the Holy Land in this day, so this observation from your link shows it was not to be the Message of Muhammad fulfilling those passages

"..The blessing embraces the whole history of Israel from Jacob's time until its ultimate completion...."

The link refers to many prophecies and all I would offer is the King of Kings has been laid to rest in Israel. The one who came like a thief in the night.

Regards Tony

 

[Pastek]

@Remté and @Pastek
I see There is a fundamental problem with believing Bible is corrupted, and you seem to not willing to look at it.
You are saying Muhammad is propheside in the Bible. Therefore the Bible should guide Christians and Jews to Accepting Muhammad. But if the Bible is corrupted, how can they be guided to accept Muhammad? You say God protected Quran from corruption. Why didnt He protect Bible, so, the Christians and Jews can be guided by it to accept Muhammad? Where is the logic in this?

It's said in the Quran that our Book was protected by God and the Scriptures were supposed to be protected by the people themselves.

15.6. And they (Meccans) said, “O you (Muhammad) who received the message, you are insane.”

15.9. Surely We revealed the Message, and We will surely preserve it.

5.44. We have revealed the Torah, wherein is guidance and light. The submissive prophets ruled the Jews according to it, so did the rabbis and the scholars, as they were required to protect God’s Book, and were witnesses to it.

Why didn't God leave a clear verse in Bible, stating clearly, that There will come a Messenger whose name is Muhammad in the year 600Ad, in arabia, with a Book called Quran. Was God incapable of doing this and protect the verse to remain till now, so, all may know Muhammad was truely prophesied?

[B]5.15 15. O People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, [COLOR=#59b300]clarifying [/COLOR]for you much of what you [U][COLOR=#00b359]kept hidden of the Book[/COLOR][/U], [U]and overlooking much[/U]. A light from God has come to you, and a clear Book.
[/B]
[QUOTE="InvestigateTruth, post: 5992801, member: 25204"][USER=65893]
Suppose some Scribes corrupted the Bible, according to your belief, and changed the verses about Muhammad. What is the fault of all other jews and christians who were not involved in corrupting their Book?
The way you make it look, is as if God is unfair, incapable, or not wise to let His holy books get corrupted, and still blame all christians and jews for not believing in Muhammad. Can you explain how all this is acceptable to you? [/QUOTE]

Why did people who have no connection with the Scriptures believed in Jesus ?
People had faith in Jesus because they believed the message not because there was a Messiah prophetized in a Book which was given to a little group of people.

You started another thread about which prophets were killed by the Israelites.
Those prophets as you quoted in a Quran verse came with proofs from God (like the fire which was a sign) yet they killed them.
Do proofs and miracles like did Jesus or Moses made people believe ?
This is a question of faith, you believe or not.
You see you are focusing on the the miracles, proof, name in the Bible but this doesn't prevent someone to believe or disbelieve.

[QUOTE="InvestigateTruth, post: 5992801, member: 25204"][USER=65893]
The same issue was important about Messiah. You are saying Muhammad and Messiah was promised to Jews, but their Book which contained all the signs to recognize Jesus and Muhammad are corrupted. So, how can a sincere Jew today, recognize that Jesus was truely their Messiah?
Their Holy Book says, Messiah is supposed to be a king. But when Jesus came He was not king, therefore they cannot believe in Jesus. What is the fault of Jews today? [/QUOTE]

I can ask the same question to you. Why do you believe in Bahaullah ?
Maybe for you it's logical he is a prophet while he didn't come with any proof nor miracle nor annoucement. I guess you believe there's signs that proove he is a prophet.
People are free to read your Book and find if he was really a prophet or not, just as jews are free to read the NT and decide if they believe in Jesus or not etc.

Concerning the Messiah I don't have enought knowledge about what he was supposed to do.
But even if what was said about the Kingdom of Jesus and the rebuilt of the Temple of Solomon (if i'm not mistaken) didn't realise, it didn't prevent Christians to believe. They say Jesus is Emmanuel etc
And they don't believe the Old Testament to be corrupted, some believe in it litteraly. (i don't know if it's the fundamentalists, evangelists, JW ...)
So as you can see corrupted or no, people can still accept someone as a prophet/messiah even if it's not clear in their own Holy Book ![/user][/user]

 

[Pastek]

But your way is different. You say whenever, bible does not make sense, or contradict Quran, it is because Bible is corrupted. Your approach has two main issues, at least. One is that, there is no verse in the whole Quran which says Bible is corrupted. So, you are putting words in the mouth of Allah. The second issue, i have already explained it in details in my previous post.
We can agree to disagree at this point.

Ok. If when you have two versions and one is saying Aaron built an idol and another said he didn't yet you believe it's exactly the same story then you have a problem.