Remté
Active Member
Then how do you explain the fact that in the Bible Aaron is to blame for the golden calf and in the Quran not?
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Messiah in Islam
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Remté
Active Member
What are the verses that ask Jews nd Christians to use them and what are the verses that have pointed to "mere" interpretation problems?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Did Aaron worship the golden calf in Bible?
In my view, in the Bible and Holy Books, sometimes God does due to His mercy does not directly blame and rebuke the people. He indirectly addresses people through their prophet. Their prophet is their representative, and represents His people.
In Quran you see, Muhammad is rebuked for sins, and it is said His sins will be forgiven. This is not because Muhammad committed any Sin. According to Allah He was a role model for humanity. But this is indirectly addressing the people of Islam.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
You already quoted two of them. They are merely talking about misinterpretations of Injil and Torah. Do I have to keep repeating that?
See following verse, Quran asks the Christians and Jews who lived at the time of Muhammad to use their Holy Books:
al-Ma`idah 5:68
It it does not make sense to most Muslims to accept Injil and Torah are not corrupted. I think it takes away from them the feeling of superiority. After all, they are told by scholars, the Quran is the only uncorrupted Book of God, and it is for this reason, it is the Last Book. Were the Muslims to accept that Quran does not really say Injil and Torah got corrupted, this whole feeling of being the Final Revelation, and the superior people goes under question. Yes?
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sooda
Veteran Member
There are other differences. Muslims don't believe in original sin, or blood sacrifice... I don't think one or the other is diminished by these differences, do you?
Remté
Active Member
He built an altar for it.
Remté
Active Member
Yes there are many others. I believe in the Quran - I don't believe in the Bible as it is. Same goes for about every Muslim and the other way around for Christinas... So yes I think it does diminish the other.
Remté
Active Member
It says follow the law. There's a significant difference.You already quoted two of them. They are merely talking about misinterpretations of Injil and Torah. Do I have to keep repeating that?
See following verse, Quran asks the Christians and Jews who lived at the time of Muhammad to use their Holy Books:
al-Ma`idah 5:68
No. The problem is in that they are corrupted.
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sooda
Veteran Member
Are you a Muslim? I have talked with so many Muslims about religion over the past 60 years... I think we have more in common than not. ..and I think there is a certain logic to Islam. My Muslim friends think Christians should be thrilled that Jesus, who was wholly innocent, didn't die such a cruel and humiliating death. Since they don't believe in blood sacrifice or original sin.. it makes perfect sense. In some of Muhammed's earliest sermons he said, Save yourselves, I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham. Muslims believe each man is responsible to God for his own sins.
And, IMO.. none of that diminishes Jesus. Its just a different point of view.
I first got interested when I read a transcript of a radio address by Ibn Saud from the 1940s.. He was trying to get the people to accept radio (broadcasts of the Koran) and he said , "Man does not live by bread alone".. What? What? Why would this grandfatherly Arab king use a phrase I'd heard in Sunday school?
We not so different.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is the whole verse:
Say: "O followers of the Bible! You have no valid ground for your beliefs -unless you [truly] observe the Torah and the Gospel, and all that has been bestowed from on high upon you by your Sustainer!" Yet all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee [O Prophet] by thy Sustainer is bound to make many of them yet more stubborn in their overweening arrogance and in their denial of the truth. But sorrow not over people who deny the truth:
It only says follow the law? Which Law? law of Torah, which you think is corrupted? Or Law of Injil which you think is altered?
To me it says a lot more. It says observe, or stand by the Torah and Injil. If these Books were corrupted in the sight of Allah, would He ask them to still stand by these Holy Books?
Obviously not. So, we have to agree to disagree, and keep it as that.
sooda
Veteran Member
You don't have to marry a Jew to convert to Judaism.
Remté
Active Member
The Qur'an doesn't mention the Bible nor the Torah at all.
Here's a better translation
"Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith." 5:68
In the whole of the Quran you need to take note that when the Quran mentions other holy books it does not refer to the whole of them as they are today. Islam recognises the Enjeel. It only therefore observes the actual God's word. These they look to be about the same message as the Quran has. But they also observe that the Enjeel is not "untouched" and that the Quran has the so called last word in everything.
The Tawrah in the Quran refers specifically to the revelation given to Moses.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
The torah and Injil have always been different from Quran.
For example, Quran says, to Jews God had given law of Sabbath. The Muslims do not have that Law.
You need to realize there is no verse in the Quran saying the injil and torah got corrupted. It is your imagination. If those Books got corrupted, Allah in the Quran would have said to people of the Book, do not use their Holy Books, as they are corrupted. Yet, there is no such a thing.
So, in you view verse 5:68 is not asking people of the Book to use their holy books which was in their hands. It is asking them to use the Quran instead? Which part of the verse is saying such a thing?
Think about this verse:
"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they HAVE the Torah in which IS the command of God." 5:46
Also, the following verse is asking them, they must believe in All Parts of their Book:
"What! Do you believe in part of the book and reject part? Whosoever among you does this, his reward shall be none other than disgrace in the present life and in the Day of Judgement they shall be cast into a more awful torment." 2:85
If their Book was corrupted, would Allah ask them to believe in All of it?
Also, There is also no verse saying Quran is the Final word of God. Remember, i quoted verses from Quran, saying the Book has a term. It is only useful for 1000 years.
Remté
Active Member
Sabbath was a test.
The Quran clearly has a different view on the scriptures regarding today's scriptures.
There is no verse that say the Quran is for 1000 years. And the Quran says prophet Muhammad is the last of the prophets.
sooda
Veteran Member
Why did Allah protect his Koran from corruption, and not his Injil and Torah?
Pastek
Sunni muslim
The meaning of Messiah in arabic has the same meaning as in Hebrew.
He was never called a King in the Quran nor hadiths.
There's a difference in the interpretation because the texts are differents. Why are they different ? That's the question i'm asking you
About Joseph
BIBLE :
37.33 He (Jacob) recognized it and said, “It is my son’s robe! Some ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been torn to pieces.”
QURAN :
18. And they brought his shirt, with fake blood on it. He (Jacob) said, “Your souls enticed you to do something. But patience is beautiful, and God is my Help against what you describe.”
BIBLE :
45.26 They told him, “Joseph is still alive! In fact, he is ruler of all Egypt.” Jacob was stunned; he did not believe them.
QURAN :
12.94 And when the caravan departed [from Egypt], their father said, "Indeed, I find the smell of Joseph [and would say that he was alive] if you did not think me weakened in mind."
12.96 And when the bearer of good tidings arrived, he cast it over his face, and he [Jacob] returned [once again] seeing. He said, "Did I not tell you that I know from Allah that which you do not know?"
Since the Beginning Jacob knew that Joseph was alive because Joseph told to his father about his vision.
12.4 "When Joseph said to his father, “O my father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun, and the moon; I saw them bowing down to me.”
If Jacob in the Bible believed that his son died so how can he explains the vision of Joseph ?
What about Aaron ?
BIBLE :
32.4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
32.5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”
QURAN :
20.87 They (Israelites) said, “We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did the Samirī throw.”
20.90 And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], “O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order.”
Clearly in the Bible Aaron is the one who built the calf.
And here what Allah said about those who took a part in it :
"7.152 Indeed, those who took the calf [for worship] will obtain anger from their Lord and humiliation in the life of this world, and thus do We recompense the inventors [of falsehood].
Where in the Bible or the Quran it was said that Aaron was touched by Allah's anger ?
Also there's the verse about the Angels eating while they came to see Abraham while in the Quran the Angels didn't eat.
And what about Solomon who prayed other gods ? While not in the Quran
1 Kings 11.4 -6
As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites.
So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.
Quran 2.102
102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved.
And we can go on. There's clearly big differences which are not only a question of interpretations.
27.76 This Quran relates to the Children of Israel most of what they differ about.
He was never called a King in the Quran nor hadiths.
There's a difference in the interpretation because the texts are differents. Why are they different ? That's the question i'm asking you
About Joseph
BIBLE :
37.33 He (Jacob) recognized it and said, “It is my son’s robe! Some ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been torn to pieces.”
QURAN :
18. And they brought his shirt, with fake blood on it. He (Jacob) said, “Your souls enticed you to do something. But patience is beautiful, and God is my Help against what you describe.”
BIBLE :
45.26 They told him, “Joseph is still alive! In fact, he is ruler of all Egypt.” Jacob was stunned; he did not believe them.
QURAN :
12.94 And when the caravan departed [from Egypt], their father said, "Indeed, I find the smell of Joseph [and would say that he was alive] if you did not think me weakened in mind."
12.96 And when the bearer of good tidings arrived, he cast it over his face, and he [Jacob] returned [once again] seeing. He said, "Did I not tell you that I know from Allah that which you do not know?"
Since the Beginning Jacob knew that Joseph was alive because Joseph told to his father about his vision.
12.4 "When Joseph said to his father, “O my father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun, and the moon; I saw them bowing down to me.”
If Jacob in the Bible believed that his son died so how can he explains the vision of Joseph ?
What about Aaron ?
BIBLE :
32.4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
32.5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”
QURAN :
20.87 They (Israelites) said, “We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did the Samirī throw.”
20.90 And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], “O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order.”
Clearly in the Bible Aaron is the one who built the calf.
And here what Allah said about those who took a part in it :
"7.152 Indeed, those who took the calf [for worship] will obtain anger from their Lord and humiliation in the life of this world, and thus do We recompense the inventors [of falsehood].
Where in the Bible or the Quran it was said that Aaron was touched by Allah's anger ?
Also there's the verse about the Angels eating while they came to see Abraham while in the Quran the Angels didn't eat.
And what about Solomon who prayed other gods ? While not in the Quran
1 Kings 11.4 -6
As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites.
So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.
Quran 2.102
102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but it was the devils who disbelieved.
And we can go on. There's clearly big differences which are not only a question of interpretations.
27.76 This Quran relates to the Children of Israel most of what they differ about.
sooda
Veteran Member
Interesting to see those verses side by side.... thanks.
Jews must have also worshipped Ashtoreth because they have found over 4,000 clay idols to her in Jerusalem.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
It is not the first time followers of a religion claim finality. Jews, and Christians also take some verses from their Book to show it is the last one.
But, like it or not, other religions came after them.
There is a verse in Quran which says Muhammad is Khatam of Prophets.
The Word Khatam is one of those words, which has multiple meanings. In fact, the literal meaning is ornament of ring, which was used to Stamp documents.
When they translate it in English, they usually use the word 'Seal' instead of 'Stamp'. It is a nicer word, but a 'Seal' means 'Stamp'.
The commentators of Quran, interpreted the Stamp of Prophets or Seal of Prophets to mean the last one. Their logic was that, when they stamp a document, it is finished.
This is just an interpretation. A stamp is mainly used to confirm a document. It does not always mean it is finished. The document can be revised again.
I had already quoted the verses of Quran, showing Quran is not the last Book and is only for 1000 years. I quote them again here:
These are some of the verses of Quran, which says, Quran Laws are useful only till the Manifestation of the Qaim. The traditions are compatible with Quran, and are parallel, so, based on sayings of the Prophet and His sons, are authentic Hadithes.
These Prophecies are regarding the abrogation of Quranic Laws, and Revelation of a New Book, and New way of Life:
"The Day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good through his Faith." (6:158). It is recorded in Bihar, that Imam Ali and Imam Sadiq said this verse denotes the advent of the awaited Qaim from us.
In another words, according to that verse, after Rise of Qaim, if someone had not believed in Quran before, but begins to believe in Quran after rise of Qaim, His belief will not do any good anymore, because, at that time, believing in Qaim, and His New Book will Profit him.
The Quranic evidence of abrogation of Quranic Laws is in surrah Al-Hajj:
“Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33
Therefore according to the verse, the Quranic Rites are beneficial until their appointed time, then after that, Religious Laws are Referred to the Ancient House, which according to Recorded Traditions, is in Heaven.
The term Ancient House in Islamic traditions is described as a heavenly Kabba, a place from where Quran was revealed to mankind. Thus, according to the above verse, after a certain time, these Quranic Laws go up again to the ancient house (meaning God will take then back, as no benefit in them anymore).
, and the time of ascension of the Quranic ordinances is in the 32nd Surrah:
“He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.” 32:5
And the evidence of abrogation of Quran and coming of a new Book are in these Traditions recorded in Bihar and Al-Kafi:
Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”
And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:
“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71
And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."
In Al-kafi it is narrated that Imam MuhammadBaqir (a.s.) said: “... they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him.”
(Meaning people do not agree to accept the new Book)!!.
And in Bihar in another Hadith, Imam said, “Qaim rises with a new Cause, a new Book, new Judgement which is sever on Arabs.”
The Quranic evidence of the Book being severe on Arabs is in Surrah AlQamar:
"The Day the caller calls to an undesirable event" 56:6
It is recorded this verse is regarding, Imam Mahdi, who calls people to that which they dislike and deny.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
He did protect them as well. Who says He did not?
sooda
Veteran Member
So how could they have been corrupted?