Messianic Jews vs. Reality

[JacobEzra.]

I think, and I may be wrong, Flankerl was just adding to the original rant.

The way I see this thread is that it started off as a rant about Messianic Judaism and how some of it's practitioners claim that they are now more Jewish than those Jews that don't believe in Jesus. That would be like a Muslim saying, and I paraphrase here, "I am more Christian because I follow Mohammad."

I can understand the rant to. It irks me to, maybe less then if I was still a practising Jew, but it still bothers me.

I just think she was a bit random with the reform thing lol

 

[Father Heathen]

I didn't want to write this thread because even though I am ethnically Jewish I am in no way a practitioner of the Jewish religion and never will be. But I have a problem with those who call themselves Messianic Jews.

I find most of them insulting. Many of those who call themselves Messianic Jews haven't a shred on Jewish DNA in them, many of them are gentiles who have done nothing more than claimed to be Jewish and then go so far as to saying that they are complete Jews because they have accepted Jesus as the Messiah,

Here is where reality kicks in. How can you claim you are Jewish if like none of your ancestors are like Jewish?

What makes you think that you are now Jewish?

IAnd why would you want to be Jewish in the first place? Is it because you mistakenly believe that the Jews are God's only Chosen People and you some how believe that being Jewish will get you closer to God?

Allow me to educate you: Race is genetics. Religion is beliefs. One does not dictate the other.

 

[not nom]

Race is genetics. Religion is beliefs.

actually "race" is not much more than a belief, either.. it's just labeling stuff as if that would make it so. I mean, belief at least has a chance to be correct (by dabbling with the untestable, woop-dee-doo).. but talking about races? the window of opportunity to get away with that is shrinking. all your race are belong to wikipedia; and good riddance, too.

 

[Jainarayan]

He specifically said not an iota of the Law will ever be void.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Just sayin'.

 

[Jainarayan]

It depends on if there is a legitimate gene marker which can be made known as Fnulpish.


All Jews carry certain genetic markers such as the "Cohen Gene", you can tell if we are related to the Mizrahi even if we have the fairest of skin.



We believe certain races, like the Canaanites and the Ammonites and the Moabites to be a "cursed race" of sorts. No offense to them.



The concept isn't too far-fetched. The Israelites are the "chosen people", a nation set apart from all the others, a special "birth-right" if you will. You may not choose to accept it, but this is how we have traditionally viewed ourselves, that the "House of Israel" is a nation, and a special priveleged nation. Jesus compares the Canaanite woman to a dog, but mercifully grants her request after the Canaanite acknowledges that she's a dog. It's one of those things that are a bit difficult to get into without offending anyone.

Wow, strong racism is strong.

 

[Jainarayan]

actually "race" is not much more than a belief, either.. it's just labeling stuff as if that would make it so.

And a social construction. The human genome shows no marker(s) for race. Combinations of genes give rise to common phenotypes, but that's all.

 

[not nom]

Wow, strong racism is strong.

it's killing me that I can't remember the (one of many I'm sure) comedian who pointed out that saying "no offense" doesn't mean what you say is automatically not offensive haha

so... how's the wiping out of the the descendants of amalek coming along? I heard this has been solved by not mentioning them... well, with that kind of attitude I could fulfill 5000, nay, 50000 laws easily: just name them, and I shall interpret them according to what's practical ^^

I came to these forums slightly religious, now I'm just a cynic

 

[ydavod]

Point of the OP, It runs something like this,
From now on I am going to call myself a Muslim Race car driver, never mind I know little about the Muslim faith and do not follow the perimeters of their religion, and I have never driven a Race car as I am sure professional drivers wont mind at all if I call myself one of them

 

[not nom]

Point of the OP, It runs something like this,
From now on I am going to call myself a Muslim Race car driver, never mind I know little about the Muslim faith and do not follow the perimeters of their religion, and I have never driven a Race car as I am sure professional drivers wont mind at all if I call myself one of them

yeah, and it falls flat on its face in light of the fact that people who "had a kosher conversion", or were born of jewish parents, are jews no matter what they do or believe.

doubly so considering how much the ultra-orthodox jews **** off the other jews, and vice versa.. it could be argued that rather lax people are offended because others are even more lax than they are, that's just funny to me.

while we're at making analogies, it's kinda like a kid who makes a colored hat out of paper, and then cries when the next day the other kids bring their own hats. seriously, look into the whole ego/self/reality thing... I love how this thread has reality in the title, but that's about it ^^ glass houses and stones, the foundations of comedy.

 

[Shermana]

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Just sayin'.

All be fulfilled means all events until the end of time, until heaven and earth collapse.

Just saying.

Many like to say that "All be fulfilled" means his death on the cross, without any actual basis, as if the "Heaven and Earth collapse" thing means "until a few days from now".

Wow, strong racism is strong.

What's your point?

 

[Shermana]

Perhaps, and yet Christianity rejects the actual practice of the commandments. And since the only records of what Jesus purportedly said are either the canonical gospels, which ultimately create support for rejecting the Torah, or the non-canonical gospels, which create support for gnosticism and other equally unacceptable heresies, there is nothing upon which to base a supposition that he was not a false prophet. Especially since he rejected the teachings of the Rabbis, and that is heresy.

The only support for rejecting Torah is from the Pauline epistles and gentile Theological lawless doctrines. Read Matthew 7:22-23, the "doers of Lawlessness" will be rejected and sent to hell. As for rejecting the teaching of the Rabbis, the Rabbis rejected each other's teachings. As for "Gnosticism", that is a whole another ballgame.

Reform and Reconstructionist Judaisms have their own problems, but they are still essentially sects of Rabbinic Judaism, and, depending on how they are practiced, are not necessarily heretical. Karaites are heretics.

That's entirely debatable and a subjective opinion. Both European and American reform (especially Reconstructionist) reject nearly the entirety of the Rabbis. End of story.

And it seems to me that Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, and Protestants have the right to say that they are normative Christianity, since they all more or less follow the ground rules for the religion set up at Nicaea.

Thanks again for proving my point about Rabbinicists being eager to use the later gentile strawman version as the representative. Why don't you explain the "Why" behind this position. Why should the Gentile "Orthodox" from the Nicean councils get the right to say what was true 2000 years ago but those who reject it don't? You are doing a great job of proving my point for me.

First of all, David was not worshipped, nor did he worship Saul. You are mistaking the fact that the word hishtachavut (prostrating oneself) Biblically had both a religious meaning (as in, to bow down during worship) and a secular meaning (as in, to bow down before a lord or king), and the two meanings were not necessarily identical. And if you mean the English word worship, that is also not what that means: see here. And since the overwhelming, vast majority of Christianity for the past 2000 years has been trinitarian, I find it difficult to suppose that their form of the religion is heretical, but somehow you have the true and normative tradition.

The word "Worship" only means to bow down. That's a fact. The word is the same for David being worshiped, for Joshua worshiping the Angel, and for David worshiping Saul. 1 Chronicles 29:20. I know you'll disagree, but the word is the same. And thanks for the Etymology link for the word in ENGLISH, but it's irrelevant. Try proving the HEBREW word's differential uses.

Strong's Hebrew: 7812. ?????? (shachah) -- to bow down

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and the king.

As for Joshua worshiping the Angel.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And he said, Nay; but as captain of the army of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What says my lord unto his servant?

Thus you are misinformed about the word Shachah. Glad to help you out.

You apparently don't know the history of the Trinity. The Trinity was developed over a century after even Paul died. You continue to prove my point that you prefer to let gentile representatives with later doctrines and theologies represent the original, that's not logical whatsoever. If you want to discuss the Trinity, I have debunked it on numerous threads. There were competing sects even since Christianity's inception. Justin Martyr for example, viewed Yashua as an angel. I(f you continue to let later "Majority" gentile representations be the representative, you continue to prove my point.

I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. No one is saying that you shouldn't believe whatever you like. But there is simply no foundation for saying that your theology is normative to either Judaism or Christianity.

[/quote]

This is irrelevant in terms of the actual subject. I'm glad to not be normative to gentile "Orthodox" Christianity, and I'm glad to be not normative to "Rabbinicism".

 

[Jainarayan]

All be fulfilled means all events until the end of time, until heaven and earth collapse.

Just saying.

Many like to say that "All be fulfilled" means his death on the cross, without any actual basis, as if the "Heaven and Earth collapse" thing means "until a few days from now".

Not death on the cross but resurrection. And yes, "until Heaven and Earth pass away" was a metaphor for an uncertain time.

What's your point?

If you can't see the point, I can't help you there.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Wow, strong racism is strong.

What's your point?

:thud: Not many people think racism is a positive trait to have.

So what makes you different from the Gentile Christians who have used Christ to say Jews are like dogs, and you using Christ to say gentiles are dogs?

It must bother you to know that dogs hijacked Christianity, huh?

 

[JacobEzra.]

All be fulfilled means all events until the end of time, until heaven and earth collapse.

Just saying.

Many like to say that "All be fulfilled" means his death on the cross, without any actual basis, as if the "Heaven and Earth collapse" thing means "until a few days from now".

Again, just your personal interpretation. Which is baseless to everyone but you and whoever decides to follow your logic. Which is pretty much the bases of all religions. Whoever has the interpretation seen as best.

Just saying.

 

[Shermana]

Again, just your personal interpretation. Which is baseless to everyone but you and whoever decides to follow your logic. Which is pretty much the bases of all religions. Whoever has the interpretation seen as best.

Just saying.

Okay, and? Was I supposed to say "I believe" or "My opinion is?" but the other person doesn't have to? Apparently Peter didn't get the memo until much later if your case is right. Or the Nazarenes and Ebionites. Those who think that "All is fulfilled" means the ressurection and as if "until Heaven and Earth collapsing" meant "Tomorrow"'s opinion is baseless to Jewish messianics like me as well as gentile Torah-Messianisc. What's your point? Are you gonna say the same to TBTL for saying his opinion as if it was matter of fact? Do you think I don't already know that my belief is not shared by Orthodox Lawless Christians like yourself? Do you feel its your duty to remind me or something? Have you added anything to the argument or explained why "All is fulfilled" refers to the resurrection instead of all events for the rest of history?

Just sayin'.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Okay, and? Was I supposed to say "I believe" or "My opinion is?" but the other person doesn't have to? Apparently Peter didn't get the memo until much later if your case is right. Those who think that "All is fulfilled" means the ressurection and as if "until Heaven and Earth collapsing" meant "Tomorrow"'s opinion is baseless to people like as well as gentile Messianics. What's your point? Are you gonna say the same to TBTL for saying his opinion as if it was matter of fact? Do you think I don't already know that my belief is not shared by Orthodox Lawless Christians like yourself?

Just sayin'.

lol its just your answer to TBTL is that the common interpretation is baseless, well so is yours. Whats that saying? Back to square one?

Your attitude is so condescending, I wouldn't be surprised if you say your the Christ.

Orthodox Lawless Christian? I don't think so. I am a law abiding citizen! lol

 

[Shermana]

lol its just your answer to TBTL is that the common interpretation is baseless,

Quote me where I said its baseless.

I am a law abiding citizen! lol

Amusing, but try to stick to the intended meaning of the word.

So what makes you different from the Gentile Christians who have used Christ to say Jews are like dogs, and you using Christ to say gentiles are dogs?

I said CANAANITES. Why don't you offer your interpretation of the episode of the Canaanite woman when he says "It's not good for DOGS to eat the children's bread".

Your attitude is so condescending, I wouldn't be surprised if you say your the Christ.

Explain exactly why you find my attitude condescending (as opposed to my arguments) , with quotes to prove it. Meanwhile, your own attitude can be viewed as borderline hostile from this comment alone.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Quote me where I said its baseless.

Many like to say that "All be fulfilled" means his death on the cross, without any actual basis, as if the "Heaven and Earth collapse" thing means "until a few days from now".

Don't tell me your going to tell me that saying "without any actual basis" all of a suddenly doesn't mean "baseless".

Amusing, but try to stick to the intended meaning of the word.

Well according to Lawless | Define Lawless at Dictionary.com

law·less   [law-lis] Show IPA
adjective
1.
contrary to or without regard for the law: lawless violence.
2.
being without law; uncontrolled by a law; unbridled; unruly; unrestrained: lawless passion.
3.
illegal: bootleggers' lawless activity.

I guess I was using the word accorded to its meaning. If not, why would I mention how I am a law abiding citizen? lol

I said CANAANITES. Why don't you offer your interpretation of the episode of the Canaanite woman when she says "But even dogs..."

[21] And Jesus went from thence, and retired into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. [22] And behold a woman of Canaan who came out of those coasts, crying out, said to him: Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David: my daughter is grieviously troubled by the devil. [23] Who answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying: Send her away, for she crieth after us: [24] And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. [25] But she came and adored him, saying: Lord, help me.

[26] Who answering, said: It is not good to take the bread of the children, and to cast it to the dogs. [27] But she said: Yea, Lord; for the whelps also eat of the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters. [28] Then Jesus answering, said to her: O woman, great is thy faith: be it done to thee as thou wilt: and her daughter was cured from that hour.

Test of faith? FOr some reason I doubt Jesus was being racist like you. Especially considering he is the one who said;

[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Sorry, but that right there shows that your racist Jesus actually cared about all nations even the dogs

Explain exactly why you find my attitude condescending (as opposed to my arguments) , with quotes to prove it.

:sarcastic seriously? Stop joking, such doesn't need proof. Just look through this thread.

Meanwhile, your own attitude can be viewed as borderline hostile from this comment alone.

Your point?

 

[Shermana]

Don't tell me your going to tell me that saying "without any actual basis" all of a suddenly doesn't mean "baseless".

So you're now your saying that I said "baseless" because I said it has no basis. Does it have basis? Where? At face value, "Til all is fulfilled" can be read as "Til everything that will ever happen is fulfilled" especially with the whole "Heaven and Earth will collapse" thing, but you have to read into the text something that's not there to get it to mean "The ressurection". Regardless, I don't need to be reminded that not everyone has the same opinion.

I guess I was using the word accorded to its meaning. If not, why would I mention how I am a law abiding citizen? lol

Again, amusing, but the question is, do you really think that I intended the word to be used as such instead of "Against Mosaic Law". Surely you have seen me use the word "Lawless" many times in such a case by now, have you not?

Test of faith? FOr some reason I doubt Jesus was being racist like you. Especially considering he is the one who said;
Sorry, but that right there shows that your racist Jesus actually cared about all nations even the dogs

Canaanites are already called a cursed race in the Torah, and we are forbidden from marrying them. You may say it was just a test of faith, but I say he was calling her a dog when he said "It's not good to throw the children's bread to dogs". It's a difference of opinion, and I DO think Jesus was being "Racist" but not in a negative modern use of the word but in a scripturally mandated way. Ask any Jew what the Torah says about Canaanites.

:sarcastic seriously? Stop joking, such doesn't need proof. Just look through this thread.

So that's a refusal to back up your accusation with proof. Thank you. I asked you to demonstrate why my attitude and not my arguments is what's condescending. My argument about the Canaanites is not about attitude, it's my argument.

Your point?

You're accusing me of having a bad attitude (and then refusing to get any specific quotes when asked) , but of course your own hostility is acceptable.

 

[JacobEzra.]

So you're now your saying that I said "baseless" because I said it has no basis. Does it have basis? Where? At face value,

No basis = baseless.

Again, amusing, but the question is, do you really think that I intended the word to be used as such instead of "Against Mosaic Law". Surely you have seen me use the word "Lawless" many times in such a case by now, have you not?

I am law abiding.

Canaanites are already called a cursed race in the Torah, and we are forbidden from marrying them. You may say it was just a test of faith, but I say he was calling her a dog when he said "It's not good to throw the children's bread to dogs". It's a difference of opinion, and I DO think Jesus was being "Racist" but not in a scripturally mandated way. Ask any Jew what the Torah says about Canaanites.

lol I know the Torah, thank you. Technically a Jew can not marry a non-Jew period. I think your reading to far into a metaphor.

So that's a refusal to back up your accusation with proof. Thank you. I asked you to demonstrate why my attitude and not my arguments is what's condescending. My argument about the Canaanites is not about attitude, it's my argument.

Your welcome

You're accusing me of having a bad attitude (and then refusing to get any specific quotes when asked) , but of course your own hostility is acceptable.

Sure it is.