Once again, I have to ask... What "God" are you referring to? If consciousness is a sign of there being a God, then why don't you think that all humans that have consciousness are not themselves Gods?
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Mickiel's proof of God.
- Thread starter mickiel
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Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
wrong
monkeys and many animals have language of a kind....
Even bees communicate through chemicals and gestures
plannign for today and tomorrow... well squirrels bury nuts, preparing for tomorrow
recallign the past, well animals have been shown to mourn...chimps have also been shown to remeber learned behaviours... bonobo chimps for example use tools to get to food, thwey have to learn and remember how to use these tools
Stating animals arent conscious as they dont have writing or computers is just plain silly
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
mickiel
Well-Known Member
When God finally sets up his Kingdom on earth, he will change all humans and give them a different form, but we will still have our consciousness. So consciousness is Life and Life is consciousness, and neither Life or Consciousness can evolve from nothing. It is simply not possible, there must be a God who created Consciousness, Life has to come from Life, all other explinations are without reason.
Peace.
Peace.
I don't know, but from that last few threads he has been forming, it seems to be all important to him to prove to himself there is in fact a God. I'm not knocking that though because we all have a need for a belief that allows us to function in this world.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I am 55 years old. And your right, I am proving it to myself, not to others. I have been looking closely at the things which prove God to me, such as biblical Archaeology and wesbters dictionary, both proofs of Gods existance to me. I plan on posting on them as well. I have over 100 proofs of God that are for me, but I certainly willnot start that many post. Maybe 20 or 30 over the next year, here and there. Pain is proof of God as well as need.
But Now I deal with consciousness as a proof of God.
Peace.
Your "proofs" are embarrassingly ignorant.
PureX
Veteran Member
Actually, there is more of an argument here than one might think.
My identity, for example, is the result of my consciousness coupled with my imagination. I am who I imagine myself to be, and who others imagine me to be, as well. And without this collective conscious imagination, "I" do not exist. My body and brain would continue to exist, in the way any dumb animal exists, but "I" would not be "here" to inhabit this animal's mind.
So if "I" am the product of this collective conscious imagination, and "God" is likewise a product of this collective conscious imagination, then "I" and "God" are equally real, or equally unreal. And this "I" of course extends to "you", as "you" are also the product of this conscious imagination. So that "God" is just as "real" as "you" are.
I think 'mickiel' is presenting more of an argument, here, than might be noticed at first glance.
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I understand. I personally don't think I could do anything to prove to myself there is a God. (at least not the Judeo-Christian type). It makes absolutely no feasible sense to me that a God would ever have the characteristics that God has. So, all I can say is if you have proved to yourself there is a God, then that is good because in the long run it has to work for you, not anyone else.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Ignorance is also proof of God, and one day I would like to go into that.
For God to exist, he must be a continuity, and consciousness is just like him, a continuity. Not an evolution, a continual force. If we close our eyes and stop thinking, our consciousness moves on. If we are blind to God and do not belief, his consciousness moves on. In my view, Gods consciousness must be awesomely powerful, just to be able to create something like our universe, animals and humans, with just his mind, his consciousness must be awesome. He may have more than one consciousness, because the bible states that he has " Seven Spirits", each Spirit may have its own consciousness. Just imagine that, 7 different consciousness.
Peace.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
This thread will take forever.
There is repeated cross over from from concept to another, and I see no hope of sorting the differences.
Consciousness, leans much more to the bodily awareness or self awareness.
It is readily noted how your awareness can be removed, for a variety of cause. Injury, chemical exposure, simply looking the other way, to name a few.
The mindful qualities, such as emotional response, and cultural training, are not so obvious, but readily referred to during a discussion of behavior.
A conscientious person would perform, in a predictable manner toward his fellow man (or animal).
You would find this written almost side by side in any dictionary, which in turn may be some of the cause for confusion.
As for proving the existence of God, to say our abilities are proof of His....
no....the one idea doesn't follow the other.
I believe Man to be a rendering of evolution.
As such, his intellect had to mature, more so than the rest of the animal world, before an awareness of spiritual life could take hold.
On Day Six....God created Man. No names. No law. And the ablility to manipulate almost anything.
Day Seven God rests. The creation process has stopped.
Then comes Chapter Two.
Apparently the development of Man was not going well.
So God, took a specimen, and placed him into ideal living conditions.
God breathed a soul into him.
Adam became aware of himself, and realized he was different than the rest of the animal life, enough so that a mate could not be found for him.
God rendered him unconscious. God took a rib.
Adam regained his consciousness.
The rib was increased to full stature, and while doing so genetically altered to be female.
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride. Eve is a clone and did not have a navel.
Some one had to be aware...at some point...that this story was witnessed.
I relate this, for at some point in the past, Man exceeded the abilities of his fellow animal. That is not to say animals lack awareness.
We are simply more able.
There is repeated cross over from from concept to another, and I see no hope of sorting the differences.
Consciousness, leans much more to the bodily awareness or self awareness.
It is readily noted how your awareness can be removed, for a variety of cause. Injury, chemical exposure, simply looking the other way, to name a few.
The mindful qualities, such as emotional response, and cultural training, are not so obvious, but readily referred to during a discussion of behavior.
A conscientious person would perform, in a predictable manner toward his fellow man (or animal).
You would find this written almost side by side in any dictionary, which in turn may be some of the cause for confusion.
As for proving the existence of God, to say our abilities are proof of His....
no....the one idea doesn't follow the other.
I believe Man to be a rendering of evolution.
As such, his intellect had to mature, more so than the rest of the animal world, before an awareness of spiritual life could take hold.
On Day Six....God created Man. No names. No law. And the ablility to manipulate almost anything.
Day Seven God rests. The creation process has stopped.
Then comes Chapter Two.
Apparently the development of Man was not going well.
So God, took a specimen, and placed him into ideal living conditions.
God breathed a soul into him.
Adam became aware of himself, and realized he was different than the rest of the animal life, enough so that a mate could not be found for him.
God rendered him unconscious. God took a rib.
Adam regained his consciousness.
The rib was increased to full stature, and while doing so genetically altered to be female.
Adam was given his twin sister for a bride. Eve is a clone and did not have a navel.
Some one had to be aware...at some point...that this story was witnessed.
I relate this, for at some point in the past, Man exceeded the abilities of his fellow animal. That is not to say animals lack awareness.
We are simply more able.
PureX
Veteran Member
Perhaps it would make more sense to think of "God" in this way ...
"You" know yourself to be such-n-such a person. And you believe this about yourself based on having had many experiences of yourself. Other people know you, however, to be a somewhat different person than you imagine yourself to be. They each have their own idea of you, based on their individual experiences of you. And because those experiences are different, and because their own personalities are different, they have naturally developed some very different concepts in their own minds about who you are.
"You", are thus the product of a collective conscious imagination, that you cannot very well control.
Likewise, so is "God". This is why there are so many religions, with so many different ideas of "God". Just as with you, different people have experienced God in different ways, and they are different personalities, themselves. So naturally, they have developed some very different ideas of who "God" is.
You might agree with some of their ideas, and strongly disagree with others. That's only natural. People feel the same way about "you" or "me".
Why would we expect "God" to appear in our minds as always the same, when we don't even appear that way to each other?
mickiel
Well-Known Member
MSizer
MSizer
While I do concede that that is a thoughtful statement, it goes nowhere in proving the existence of god. Everybody also has their own opinion of what dragons might be like.
I agree totally that we all have a different idea of what God is or isn't. I like your explanation by the way. However, I have a hard time understanding why there even needs to be a god. I realize I have a consciousness and by having this I am aware that I exist. I am also aware that other people seem to exist too. However, that doesn't make me automatically assume there is a seperate creator called god. And yes, like you said that is my impression based on my personal experience in life. Others very easily come to a different conclusion that does prove a god exists because their experience has been different.
PureX
Veteran Member
Yet, you will not be able to deny that "God" is as "real" as "you" are. So even though the dragons are a clever distraction, they don't really answer the proposition at all.
A better question might be; why are dragons NOT as real as "you" or "I" when both you and I are the product of collective conscious imagination? And likewise, why is "God" more real than dragons?
I think the answer to these questions is collective experience. Almost no one has any personal experience of a dragon. Lots of people have personal experience of "you", and of "me".
And of "God".
This is why you and I and God are real to most people, while dragons and fairies and the like are not.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Consciousness is the Governor of behavior and is how God created it to be. If consciousness emerged in evolution, then when? In what species? What kind of nervous system was neccessary? Whats wrong about emergent evolution is not just the doctrine, but the release back to the old comfortable ways of thinking about consciousness and behavior, the license that gives to broad and vacuous generalities. Consciousness is so much more of a marvel.
Peace.
Peace.
MSizer
MSizer
No, you're wrong. The personal experience a person has with a dragon is exactly the same as one with god. Both are delusional.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Consciousness is " A Spirit in man", its nothing physical at all. Another proof of God, Spirits do not evolve, they are unseen and enduring. And they are created by God. No one can physically see human consciousness , we just know its there. One plausible nominee if I were to quess is the tangle of tiny internuncial neurons called the reticular formation, which has long lain hidden and unsuspected in the brainstem. God can communicate with humans through that path if he so appealed to. Its like a system of wiretaps.
The mind of man shouldnot be reduced to happenstance evolution, that insults the great design that it is.
Peace.
The mind of man shouldnot be reduced to happenstance evolution, that insults the great design that it is.
Peace.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
We cannot be conscious of what we are not conscious of, we are conscious of God, thus God must exist. Consciousness is the sum total of mental processes occuring now. God is occuring now and we are conscious of him. If no human were conscious of God, there would be no God to humans.
Peace.
Peace.
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