Migrant children say they've been forcibly drugged, handcuffed, and abused

[BSM1]

Why are the parents not being present? Who stipulates that illegality of entrance should force this situation?

Again... I made my point clear that most of us wouldn't want our kids to be treated this way but then we allow it to be forced to those with the status of "illegal immigrants."

Would you want this done for your kids? If not then just say you believe it's ok to do so for illegal immigrants.

That's basically the difference between us.

I wouldn't want this done to my kids and I wouldn't want it done to illegal immigrants either.

Please note the word you constantly throw at us--"Illegal-- again that's-- illegal immigrants". Illegal means a law is broken. If I break the law and I am arrested I know my kids will be taken away from me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why are the parents not being present? Who stipulates that illegality of entrance should force this situation?

As I understand it, the parents are arrested for illegal entry.
The obvious answer to the 2nd question is "government".

Again... I made my point clear that most of us wouldn't want our kids to be treated this way but then we allow it to be forced to those with the status of "illegal immigrants."

When citizens are arrested in Americastan, the children become separated from them.
Without arrangements for other guardians, government takes custody.
What alternative would you propose?

Would you want this done for your kids?

No.
But then, when I've travelled abroad with my kids I've taken steps to avoid trouble....
- Passports
- Birth certificates for kids (required in Canuckistan, which is a stickler)
- Obeying their laws.

If not then just say you believe it's ok to do so for illegal immigrants.

Why should I say something like that?

That's basically the difference between us.

You presume too much.

I wouldn't want this done to my kids and I wouldn't want it done to illegal immigrants either.

You have complaints, but have you solutions?

 

[Revoltingest]

Please note the word you constantly throw at us--"Illegal-- again that's-- illegal immigrants". Illegal means a law is broken. If I break the law and I am arrested I know my kids will be taken away from me.

And this point is where it becomes strange.
We hear no objections when it's done to citizens within the country.

 

[fantome profane]

WTH are you talking about? When you break the law you are arrested.

This is not true. It depend on what law you break and under what circumstances. People are rarely arrested for speeding. Or a parking violation. Or for littering.

The fact is that crossing the border illegally is a crime, but it is a misdemeanour.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And this point is where it becomes strange.
We hear no objections when it's done to citizens within the country.

We do if it's a misdemeanor charge, civil penalty or other offense where incarceration is not necessary or warranted. The problem is, in addition to separating children from their parents without having the will or ability to give them quality care as we do with our own citizens, we're over-punishing people who enter illegally. Committing a crime doesn't excuse graduated punishments.

 

[BSM1]

This is not true. It depend on what law you break and under what circumstances. People are rarely arrested for speeding. Or a parking violation. Or for littering.

The fact is that crossing the border illegally is a crime, but it is a misdemeanour.

If you are taken to jail you lose your kids. Period. And it's only a misdemeanor for the first offense (or if you have other charges like drug smuggling). Besides that, if you are seeking asylum you are detained until you have a hearing to determine your claim. This could take a couple of years. Do we lock up the kids with the parents?

BTW, I just noticed you conveniently left out the part of my post that's germane to the conversation just, IMHO, so you could beat your chest with righteous indignation.

 

[1137]

Migrant children say they've been forcibly drugged, handcuffed, and abused in US government detention

Disgusting, but I am sure the apologists will be around shortly.

That's horrible, I can't stand when those who are supposed to care for children harm them. Having to investigate groups homes and foster placements for child abuse will probably be the most emotionally difficult job throughout the rest of my life. But what I really wish is that people cared about our own citizen children who this has been happening to, well, endlessly. Like I get it, this let's you bash Trump and bash the right. But why didn't you care when Obama was doing it? Why haven't you cared about the children already in your country in the underfunded and sometimes malevolent foster care systems? That you folk use this as a tool of political attack, when you never gave the slightest little crap before, is something truly disturbing. And you know what? When you guys get your way and Trump is gone it'll go back to normal basically over night.

For now I will continue to actually care about children and people as I have since before it was a political platform against Trump, and I will stand by the fact that the system being broken doesn't imply we should imprison innocent children.

 

[suncowiam]

WTH are you talking about? When you break the law you are arrested. You don't get to take your kids with you to jail. This goes back to my statement that this is a not so subtle cry for an open border and a complete disregard for the law. You don't want to lose your kids? Stay home or come to the US legally. Problem solved.

Please, you do not get arrested for every case of breaking a law. Not to mention do you get incarcerated and then have your children separated from you.

Your whole premise is flawed.

 

[suncowiam]

Please note the word you constantly throw at us--"Illegal-- again that's-- illegal immigrants". Illegal means a law is broken. If I break the law and I am arrested I know my kids will be taken away from me.

Again, you're just painting it black and white. Yes, it's illegal, same as littering and jay walking. I use moderate examples to suggest that not all crimes are equal and deserves the same punishment.

If you believe these illegal immigrants should have their children forcably removed from their care then that is your opinion. The issue is that many people do not believe this morally fair even for illegal immigrants. It hurts the children. There are many court cases that consider the welfare of children when handing down verdicts to the parents. They see it per case.

 

[suncowiam]

As I understand it, the parents are arrested for illegal entry.
The obvious answer to the 2nd question is "government".

When citizens are arrested in Americastan, the children become separated from them.
Without arrangements for other guardians, government takes custody.
What alternative would you propose?

No.
But then, when I've travelled abroad with my kids I've taken steps to avoid trouble....
- Passports
- Birth certificates for kids (required in Canuckistan, which is a stickler)
- Obeying their laws.

Why should I say something like that?

You presume too much.

You have complaints, but have you solutions?

I do not need to offer solutions. I can just state that separating children from illegal immigrants is wrong.

There is no requirement in this debate for me to offer a solution.

Like I said in an earlier comment. The stipulation here is that Trump implemented a zero tolerance policy that forces home land security to arrest illegal immigrants. That is Trump's government. It is not the same as the previous administrations. And I also said in the other comment, not all crimes require the perps to be arrested.

Your arguing on technicality. Trump is reversing his policy so since technically, the policy has changed so every Trump supporter technically has no leg to stand on.

 

[Revoltingest]

We do if it's a misdemeanor charge, civil penalty or other offense where incarceration is not necessary or warranted. The problem is, in addition to separating children from their parents without having the will or ability to give them quality care as we do with our own citizens, we're over-punishing people who enter illegally. Committing a crime doesn't excuse graduated punishments.

We over-punish people here too.
The smallest of infractions can have the greatest of consequences.
The level of the crime of illegal entry is the legislators' decision.
They rank it with more severe ones, not I.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

We over-punish people here too.
The smallest of infractions can have the greatest of consequences.
The level of the crime of illegal entry is the legislators' decision.
They rank it with more severe ones, not I.

It's ranked as a misdemeanor or civil offense. Not prison-worthy.

 

[suncowiam]

@BSM1

@Revoltingest

This 13-year-old boy recorded his talk with the principal — now he's being charged with an eavesdropping felony

Hey look! This 13 year old boy broke the law and now is faced with a felony. Clearly he needs to be arrested and separated from his family!

It's that black and white! Throw the book at him, I say. Criminals never learn.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not need to offer solutions. I can just state that separating children from illegal immigrants is wrong.
There is no requirement in this debate for me to offer a solution.

I'm not debating, having taken no stance anyone argues against.
I'm discussing the issues, & asking for proposed solutions is an
interesting line of thought. I don't require you to discuss it.

Like I said in an earlier comment. The stipulation here is that Trump implemented a zero tolerance policy that forces home land security to arrest illegal immigrants. That is Trump's government. It is not the same as the previous administrations. And I also said in the other comment, not all crimes require the perps to be arrested.

Your arguing on technicality. Trump is reversing his policy so since technically, the policy has changed so every Trump supporter technically has no leg to stand on.

Arguing a "technicality"?
You asked specific questions which I fully answered.
And you object to that?
You might be reading something I'm not posting.

FWIW, I'm not a Trump supporter.
I simply favor some agendas over others.
It matters not whether the Prez is Dem or Pub.
Eg, I like pursuing peace in the Koreas,
but I oppose his increasing hostilities with Iran.

 

[Revoltingest]

@BSM1

@Revoltingest

This 13-year-old boy recorded his talk with the principal — now he's being charged with an eavesdropping felony

Hey look! This 13 year old boy broke the law and now is faced with a felony. Clearly he needs to be arrested and separated from his family!

It's that black and white! Throw the book at him, I say. Criminals never learn.

Geeze Louise....you're making utterly bonkers inferences.
I sense mischief rather than wanting to discuss issues.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's ranked as a misdemeanor or civil offense. Not prison-worthy.

What you say is true for "unlawful presence".
But the act of entering illegally is different.
Ref....
Is it a Crime to Enter The U.S. Illegally? - AllLaw.com

Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws. Illegal entry also carries consequences for anyone who might later attempt to apply for a green card or other immigration benefit.

The penalties and consequences get progressively more severe if a person enters illegally more than once, or enters illegally after an order of removal (deportation) or having been convicted of an aggravated felony.

Note:
I don't advocate that things be the way they are.
But it's necessary to be familiar with the law.
It sheds light on what's happening.

 

[suncowiam]

Geeze Louise....you're making utterly bonkers inferences.
I sense mischief rather than wanting to discuss issues.

I sense willful ignorance.

 

[Revoltingest]

I sense willful ignorance.

Try reading more carefully then.
Less agenda driven....more open mind.
I'm sure that will help.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What you say is true for "unlawful presence".
But the act of entering illegally is different.
Ref....
Is it a Crime to Enter The U.S. Illegally? - AllLaw.com


Note:
I don't advocate that things be the way they are.
But it's necessary to be familiar with the law.
It sheds light on what's happening.

So, nothing I actually said has changed. It's not a prison-worthy offense (As a civil offense or misdemeanor) unless other crimes have been committed on top of it. Such as forging documents, repeated offenses, or having convicted of aggravated felony already.
Honestly I view the arguments for imprisoning illegal border crossings to be as inept and 'crime justifies maximum punishment' as when we were imprisoning non-violent marijuana users.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, nothing I actually said has changed. It's not a prison-worthy offense (As a civil offense or misdemeanor) unless other crimes have been committed on top of it. Such as forging documents, repeated offenses, or having convicted of aggravated felony already.
Honestly I view the arguments for imprisoning illegal border crossings to be as inept and 'crime justifies maximum punishment' as when we were imprisoning non-violent marijuana users.

I have something for you.

Spoiler: Surprise

I agree.
And I appreciate your attention to the issues with civility.