Minimum Wage

[Altfish]

'Some businesses have been disguising employees as independent contractors to avoid paying minimum wage, holiday pay, sick pay and other benefits. Uber, Deliveroo and Pimlico Plumbers have recently been sued for this reason.' The government has a bill in the works that aims to put a stop to this practice. If it becomes law, service providers will be considered employees by default. It’ll be up to employers to prove that a person is an independent contractor.'

EU laws currently make it hard for the 'gig' economy to prove they are independent; cases have been lost in court. It is however unclear. Boris will relax the rules if he gets the chance. Screw the workers, more money for the rich.

 

[Augustus]

But they still have to pay the minimum wage, so it is no cheaper than using UK labour.

It is if they drive down the cost of labour overall and enable more employers to get away with only paying the minimum wage for jobs that would otherwise have required them to pay more.

 

[Kirran]

Again, what on Earth is the value of any business which doesn't pay its workers a living wage?

It is surely bad enough to hold ransom people's ability to provide for themselves and their families for one's own profit even if they are paid reasonably.

 

[Kirran]

EU laws currently make it hard for the 'gig' economy to prove they are independent; cases have been lost in court. It is however unclear. Boris will relax the rules if he gets the chance. Screw the workers, more money for the rich.

What's the solution?

 

[Altfish]

It is if they drive down the cost of labour overall and enable more employers to get away with only paying the minimum wage for jobs that would otherwise have required them to pay more.

Well Boris has just scrapped the immigration targets, so he obviously wants more Asian/African immigrants to keep wages down.

 

[Altfish]

What's the solution?

Enforce the minimum wage for ALL works, make the 'gig' economy pay the same benefits and have to abide by the same laws as everyone else.

 

[Darkforbid]

EU laws currently make it hard for the 'gig' economy to prove they are independent; cases have been lost in court. It is however unclear. Boris will relax the rules if he gets the chance. Screw the workers, more money for the rich.

See all you remainer do is scaremonger

 

[Altfish]

See all you remainer do is scaremonger

Why else are the likes of Tim Martin pushing for Brexit then?
What's the benefit to them if it is not lower wages and worse employment conditions?

 

[Darkforbid]

Again, what on Earth is the value of any business which doesn't pay its workers a living wage?

It is surely bad enough to hold ransom people's ability to provide for themselves and their families for one's own profit even if they are paid reasonably.

Not only that, even people earning well over minimum wage, get working tax credit and still need housing benefit.

Many businesses are an overall a net loss for the UK economy

 

[Kirran]

Not only that, even people earning well over minimum wage, get working tax credit and still need housing benefit.

Many businesses are an overall a net loss for the UK economy

Really? I didn't know that. It's a pretty dodgy system man.

Enforce the minimum wage for ALL works, make the 'gig' economy pay the same benefits and have to abide by the same laws as everyone else.

Probably would require a change in government?

 

[Augustus]

Well Boris has just scrapped the immigration targets, so he obviously wants more Asian/African immigrants to keep wages down.

That's basically the opposite of what he said. Instead of 'targets' he advocated a policy based on attracting skilled migrants.

 

[Augustus]

EU laws currently make it hard for the 'gig' economy to prove they are independent; cases have been lost in court. It is however unclear. Boris will relax the rules if he gets the chance. Screw the workers, more money for the rich.

How would you feel about the EU if it moved further to the right and started to promote laws you didn't agree with? Or a more left-wing British government was limited in the policies it could implement because of EU law?

 

[Valjean]

Abolish the minimum wage all together.
The free market will decide fair wages.
A wage law just increases unemployment.

Free market fundamentalist hooey.
Smith's invisible hand can't be relied on, and the free market economics of Hayek and America's Chicago School have never worked as advertised.

"There are nine countries with no minimum wage (Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Italy, Switzerland.) Five of the nine have a lower unemployment rate than Luxembourg, the best of the other group. The median country is Iceland, with a 5.5% unemployment rate."

It's not the lack of a federal minimum wage that makes most of these countries economically viable, it's the heavy hand of regulation and/or unions.
Iceland: Collective bargaining yields a minimum 300,000ISK/mo (USD: 2,400)for most workers.
Norway: Salaries by collective agreement. Eg: Hospitality Workers -- 167NDK/h (USD: 19.50)
Sweden: Salaries by collective bargaining. Ave minimum: 110SEK/h (USD: 12.00)
Finland: Minimums vary. Salaries by collective bargaining. Unskilled day shift averages ~ €12.00/h.
Denmark: Union negotiated. Ave: 110DKK (USD: 16.00)
Austria: Salaries usually by collective bargaining. ~ €1,200/m. (USD: 1,289).
Ger: Minimum €9,19/h. USD: (10.60). Most salaries by collective bargaining.
Italy: Salaries usually by collective bargaining. July, 15th, this year, Deputy P.M. Di Maio Proposed a minimum €9.00/h.
Switzerland: Two Cantons have €20/h, elsewhere there are various levels of collective bargaining agreements. According to 2017 OECD data, Switzerland has the 2nd highest average salary in Europe.
Pay is only indirectly related to prosperity, though, since general cost-of-living, healthcare and education costs, paid vacation time, paid maternal/paternal leave, housing subsidies, plus various other social services need to be figured in.
In most of these no minimum countries there are strong unions or co-ops that make government intervention less needed.
In the US, industry has successfully hamstrung unions, and has made socialism a dirty word. In the US oligarchy, profit is the prime directive. Industry works for stockholders and government for industry. Maximizing profits and minimizing expenses are seen as a moral mandate. Society is a zero sum competition, creating winners and losers. The winners exploit, and deserve their success. The losers deserve their poverty.

 

[Altfish]

How would you feel about the EU if it moved further to the right and started to promote laws you didn't agree with? Or a more left-wing British government was limited in the policies it could implement because of EU law?

I think it is fairly right wing, Merkel is hardly a socialist. It is certainly no worse than centre.

 

[Shad]

The minimum wage is a hot-button issue for politicians and economists. Every time an amendment comes before the U.S. Congress to raise the minimum wage, advocates and critics pull out some convincing arguments to win over public opinion.

The most common argument in support of the minimum wage is that it protects the workers at the lowest rung of the socio-economic ladder.

Opponents of the minimum wage claim that a fixed minimum wage actually hurts the same low-rung workers it vows to protect.

Which is true? Arguments for or against minimum wage.

Neither. Both ignore the employer thus employer choice. Both ignore that some jobs are not careers but a stepping stone to better jobs.

 

[Koldo]

The minimum wage is a hot-button issue for politicians and economists. Every time an amendment comes before the U.S. Congress to raise the minimum wage, advocates and critics pull out some convincing arguments to win over public opinion.

The most common argument in support of the minimum wage is that it protects the workers at the lowest rung of the socio-economic ladder.

Opponents of the minimum wage claim that a fixed minimum wage actually hurts the same low-rung workers it vows to protect.

Which is true? Arguments for or against minimum wage.

Both are true, but it depends on where the minimum wage is set. If it is too high, a lot of jobs get destroyed. If it is too low, it makes no difference whatsoever. If it is just right, a few jobs are lost but a lot of people earn ( much ) more than they would earn otherwise.

 

[Koldo]

Neither. Both ignore the employer thus employer choice. Both ignore that some jobs are not careers but a stepping stone to better jobs.

Do you mean the employer's choice should always take precedence ? If so, why do you think like that ?

I think there is a legitimate case to be made when it comes down to paying less than minimum wage if the employee is learning an useful skill that can be used, in the near future, to find a job that pays considerably more than the minimum wage. But, just to be clear where I am taking this, assembling hamburgers doesn't come anywhere close to that.

 

[Audie]

Many opponents tend to think it is possible for anyone and everyone to get a better paying job whenever they want, which isn't based in reality. Those who can't, regardless the reason, should not be tossed to the mercy of whatever an employer is willing to pay.

Really? That would be awfully stupid.
I never remotely heard anyone say that.

 

[Shad]

Do you mean the employer's choice should always take precedence ? If so, why do you think like that ?

No. My point is the employers choice is relevant. For example one can hire an overqualified applicant betting on the individual being better worker than one with a blink or small work and education history. So the min wage in that case isn't helping the people it is aimed at namely those with no career prospects. This is what happens when government is assigning value to labour by only looking at the cost of various products often outside a local scope nor the labour. The costs of living vary from city to city, state to state. Those can involve zoning laws, development, etc. All controlled by government thus part of the very problem. Those difference inflate and conflate the core basis for min wage.

I think there is a legitimate case to be made when it comes down to paying less than minimum wage if the employee is learning an useful skill that can be used, in the near future, to find a job that pays considerably more than the minimum wage.

Sure. Obviously I would think a wage increase would follow if that skill or skill set is used by the company. This can go into what I posted above. Under min wage I can try to find those applicants with the skills the company needs before I bother to look at training applicants.

But, just to be clear where I am taking this, assembling hamburgers doesn't come anywhere close to that.

I think we agree on this type of job. I reject the idea that some service jobs like fast food require a wage to meet a standard of living. These jobs are stepping stones not a career. In some cases I see min wage as subsidizing failure by force of government upon the employer/owner.

 

[Augustus]

Smith's invisible hand can't be relied on

Smith's invisible hand was Divine Providence...