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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I’m not aware of that being done.
But you said, I quote: "Why did so many the "ethical... pro science" journals dismiss the actual research on the effectiveness of the vaccines, makes and other treatments?"
If there are five groups doing research, they would not all come to the same decision about certain things (depending on how the research was done). Science journals will mention all research results, scientists will go through all results and evaluate them, and the majority view will win.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It’s writings by people who saw things.
Did they really saw those things or they were making up a story? Or they may have seen completely different things but their report was edited, changed, marred by other people in time? The proof is not good enough.
 
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Truth in love

Well-Known Member
But you said, I quote: "Why did so many the "ethical... pro science" journals dismiss the actual research on the effectiveness of the vaccines, makes and other treatments?"
If there are five groups doing research, they would not all come to the same decision about certain things (depending on how the research was done). Science journals will mention all research results, scientists will go through all results and evaluate them, and the majority view will win.
The evaluation should be on method not popularly of outcome.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
@Truth in love
Did they really saw those things or they were making up a story? Or they may have seen completely different things but their report was edited, changed, marred by other people in time? The proof is not good enough.

Or they may have seen something or had an experience and be trying to honestly relate the experience, but be wrong about the cause.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Did they really saw those things or they were making up a story? Or they may have seen completely different things but their report was edited, changed, marred by other people in time? The proof is not good enough.
Some err is a risk, but how is that different from journals that publish junk, newspapers making up crud etc. it’s all evidence of someone likes it it dismissed if they don’t.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Some err is a risk, but how is that different from journals that publish junk, newspapers making up crud etc. it’s all evidence of someone likes it it dismissed if they don’t.
If you are talking about scientific journals, they require the inclusion of a methodology for others to examine, critique and test. And no scientific methodology with insist that the person doing the test believe the conclusion prior to beginning the test.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that there's no way we can verify anything at all?
I’m saying that the issues with the Bi Kenyon pointed out apply to news, journals and most of the systems people use now. So I’m not sure why they would only apply to one and not the other.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I’m saying that the issues with the Bi Kenyon pointed out apply to news, journals and most of the systems people use now. So I’m not sure why they would only apply to one and not the other.

The issues with the what? What is Bi Kenyon?

In any case, when it comes to modern sources, we are able to check. We have contemporaneous sources. We have multiple sources that agree. We have different kinds of sources that all agree. The Bible can't make that claim. If you were to discount the Bible or any sources based on the Bible, where would we see a claim for Noah's flood? Or that Jesus walked on water?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
"Nothing in scripture is historical if that is what you mean." There we have it folks the if I don't like it is not. Utterly unscientific and 100% illogical.

Oh you are talking about scripture? I thought you had evidence? But you are wrong, it has nothing to do with what I "like". It has to do with empirical evidence, rational thought, critical thinking, reasonable skepticism....
It sounds like what you are really saying is you believe it so it's true. That doesn't make something true.

There is far more evidence than needed that scripture is a mythology so those are not proof of any healings.
I just posted Justin Martyr saying that all the Greek demigods also did healing and miracles but it's because Satan wanted to fool people into thinking Christian stories were also myth.
That is good evidence that the stories are actually taken from older stories.

And when he [the devil] brings forward Æsculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? But since I have not quoted to you such Scripture as tells that Christ will do these things, I must necessarily remind you of one such: from which you can understand, how that to those destitute of a knowledge of God, I mean the Gentiles, who, ‘having eyes, saw not, and having a heart, understood not,’ worshipping the images of wood, [how even to them] Scripture prophesied that they would renounce these [vanities], and hope in this Christ.





I did see an article on faith healing years back (like 20+) As best I can recall it was doubled blind and did indicate some benefit. And no I did not keep a copy or memorize the reference.

We should also keep in mind that the concept of faith healing and the almost uniform hatred of the idea in the pseudo science world makes the experiment a bit like trying to light a fire in the rain.


The Wiki entry on faith healing must have missed that:

"Virtually all[a] scientists and philosophers dismiss faith healing as pseudoscience.[3][4][5][6]"

I searched for any papers and found nothing.

The article from the American Cancer Society also sees no evidence and has noticed hundreds of children have needlessly died from attempts:

Description
Faith healing is founded on the belief that certain people or places have the ability to cure and heal—that someone or something can eliminate disease or heal injuries through a close connection to a higher power. Faith healing can involve prayer, a visit to a religious shrine, or simply a strong belief in a supreme being.

Overview
Available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can cure cancer or any other disease. Some scientists suggest that the number of people who attribute their cure to faith healing is lower than the number predicted by calculations based on the historical percentage of spontaneous remissions seen among people with cancer. However, faith healing may promote peace of mind, reduce stress, relieve pain and anxiety, and strengthen the will to live.

What is the evidence?
Although it is known that a small percentage of people with cancer experience remissions of their disease that cannot be explained, available scientific evidence does not support claims that faith healing can actually cure physical ailments. When a person believes strongly that a healer can create a cure, a “placebo effect” can occur. The placebo effect can make the person feel better, but it has not been found to induce remission or improve chance of survival from cancer. The patient usually credits the improvement in how he or she feels to the healer, even though the perceived improvement occurs because of the patient’s belief in the treatment. Taking part in faith healing can evoke the power of suggestion and affirm one’s faith in a higher power, which may help promote peace of mind. This may help some people cope more effectively with their illness.

One review published in 1998 looked at 172 cases of deaths among children treated by faith healing instead of conventional methods. These researchers estimated that if conventional treatment had been given, the survival rate for most of these children would have been more than 90 percent, with the remainder of the children also having a good chance of survival. A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.

Although there are few studies in adults, one study conducted in 1989 suggested that adult Christian Scientists, who generally use prayer rather than medical care, have a higher death rate than other people of the same age.

Are there any possible problems or complications?
People who seek help through faith healing and are not cured may have feelings of hopelessness, failure, guilt, worthlessness, and depression. In some groups, the person may be told that his or her faith was not strong enough. The healer and others may hold the person responsible for the failure of their healing. This can alienate and discourage the person who is still sick.

Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences. Death, disability, and other unwanted outcomes have occurred when faith healing was elected instead of medical care for serious injuries or illnesses.

While competent adults may choose faith healing over medical care, communities often become concerned when parents make such choices for their children. This concern has sparked organizations to work toward creating laws to protect children from inappropriate treatment by faith healers.

Finally, a few “faith healers” have been caught using fraud as a way to get others to believe in their methods. These people often solicited large donations or charged money for their healing sessions.

Faith Healing
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Some err is a risk, but how is that different from journals that publish junk, newspapers making up crud etc. it’s all evidence of someone likes it it dismissed if they don’t.
Newspapers and other junk are for initial information. The correctness of the information has to be checked with scientific journals. They have experts on their editorial boards.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I know much more about life than you. Police uses weapons on the street. If criminal gets killed on the street by police, it is not murder. It is execution.

Tell me, when a person is found guilty of a crime and is sentenced to be executed, do they call in a police officer to do it while they are on patrol?
 
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