Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Is he really Al Mahdi and the Messiah?

[FearGod]

Your method of approach is as follows: Google prophecies of Imam Mahdi that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad never fit.

Your method of approach is flawed. Since, you are looking for signs to disbelieve on you will find them. This is why the Quran says that regardless of what signs are shown or not shown they will disbelieve. It is because it is the Sunnah of Allah (swt) to provide disbelievers who go looking for signs to disbelieve on with signs that fit their heart, as they are deserving of this punishment.

When you asked about skyscrapers, it was proven that you were wrong, and this was completely ignored. I provide with an article about his family background and you refute with a single statement from a Reverent trying to price Jesus is God and his second coming along lines of trinity..

Allah (swt) provides sufficient signs for the believers. And the Quran shows it was always disbelievers that kept asking for signs and never accepted them when shown. It is obvious that you have taken up this attitude and with the law of Allah you will continue in disbelief unless you repent and follow the way Quran teaches on looking for positive sign rather then negative.

And those who look for positive signs know that more positive signs exist than anything else. They completely overshadow everything else. Everyone knows that almost all the Signs of Time of Messiah are fulfilled. You are free to continue in vain hope of a physical descent that everyone knows in their heart will never happen. You may end your life waiting for a certain sign that was either already fulfilled, misintepreted, or even wrongly narrated. Do you see the risk?

i search for the truth,i showed you with evidence that he was descented from Mogullian family and not persian as you claimed to fit him with one Hadith,then i asked you about people's competition to construct high buildings,then your answer was flawed and not convincing at all because you are trying just to refute the truth.

i gave you one other hadith about the Siege on Iraq and then on Syria which just happened in recent years and you neglect it,give me an answer.

What about the final war which all Abrahamic beliefs know about it,that war will come and it'll be world war III,i know you are a peacefull man and we are too,but that is a fact which have to come even though we hate it.give me an answer.

Can you convince a christian that there will be no armageddon ?
Can you convince a christian that Jesus PBUH won't take all believers on earth with his death,and that only disbelievers will live on earth for a while.

Give me direct convincing answers please.

 

[F0uad]

I will not continue until you accept my last reply to you. You were given one proof you were unwilling to accept and the disrespect that you showed to the Quran you never corrected yourself about.

Were is your proof inside that reply, please quote it for me?
How did i show disrespect to the Quran please refrain yourself from such horrible accusations.

I will never believe that a person who rejects the Qur'an's position as ultimate truth would ever accept anything but lies. Unless you first accept that you had nothing to refute over Imam Bukari, neither did you know anything about Hakim, and you were wrong on failing to acknowledge position of Quran, and you also erred to fallacies.

I do belief the Quran's position to be ultimate true i just don't dont belief your interpretation on it is right nor does the rest of the Muslim population do so what your are actually saying is that all Muslims are liars. I had nothing to refute over Bukhari? Weren't you the one claiming that Bukhari had to mention it for no specific reason wherein later you accepted he didn't have to?

Unless this is fulfilled your arrogance will continue to blind you. You are way to arrogant so far to have accepted a single mistake on your part.

So i am arrogant and blind for asking ONE SINGLE REFERENCE?

Are you just mad at me because you know that you cannot bring forth anything i asked? I don't even think Muslims should debate or discuss this with you until you can reply on this:

Rational Mind since you want to use the Quran and your claiming that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Mahdi and Messiah then please give us this:

1. A Quranic verse that states Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Mahdi or Messiah.
2. A Quranic verse that says the Mahdi and Messiah are the same person.

or

1. A Authentic Hadith that confirms Mirza Ghulam Ahmad being one of them or both.
2. A Authentic Hadith that confirms they are the same person.

and

1. Refute the Quranic verses and Hadiths that says Jesus(pbuh) is the Messiah
2. Refute the Mass-transmission that says the Mahdi and Messiah are two different persons.
3. Refute the descriptions of the events in the Mass-transmission that is not consistences with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

If you cannot live up to these expatiation just give us One reference just simply ONE.
How is it arrogant or ignorant of Muslims to ask for one simple reference if you are claiming as you do, would you not do the same?

 

[Rational_Mind]

i search for the truth,i showed you with evidence that he was descented from Mogullian family and not persian as you claimed to fit him with one Hadith,then i asked you about people's competition to construct high buildings,then your answer was flawed and not convincing at all because you are trying just to refute the truth.

Give me direct convincing answers please.

Refer to bold. Your sincerity is displayed by that statement. Lets also quote your first statement:

Narrated Abu Hurairah (radi Allahu anhu): Allah’s Messenger (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “The Hour will not be established till …the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings…” [Sahih Bukhari]

Did skyscraper appeared in Gulam Ahmed era,the truth is clear for whom want to see it.

My response:

There is academic disagreement over which building should be considered the first skyscraper.[37] The term was first used was in the 1780s to describe a particularly tall horse, before later being applied to the sail at the top of a ship's mast, tall hats and bonnets, tall men and a ball that was hit high into the air.[38] In the 1880s it began to be applied to buildings, first in 1883 to describe large public monuments and then in 1889 as a label for tall office blocks, coming into widespread use over the next decade.[39] Identifying the first "true skyscraper" is not straightforward, and various candidates exist depending on the criteria applied.[40] George Post's New York Equitable Life Building of 1870, for example, was the first tall office building to use the elevator, while his Produce Exchange of 1884 made substantial structural advances in metal frame design.[41] The Home Insurance Building in Chicago, opened in 1884, is, however, most often labelled the first skyscraper because of its innovative use of structural steel in a metal frame design.[42]
Early skyscrapers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you asked if they appeared in the Era of the Promised Messiah (as).

Mīrzā Ghulām Aḥmad[3] (Arabic: ميرزا غلام أحمد; Urdu: مرزا غلام احمد; February 13, 1835 – 26 May 1908 CE, or 14 Shawal 1250 – 24 Rabi' al-thani 1326 AH) was a religious figure from India and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement.

There is a reason why I will not continue to fulfill your requests for signs unless you accept the clear one that you first requested.

One who denies one clear sign, as per the Quran:

[2:100] And surely, We have sent down to thee manifest Signs, and no one disbelieves in them but the disobedient.

Treatment of the Quran by some Muslims who run to Hadith and also deny authenticity every Prophetic Hadith that comes true is similar to:
[2:102] And now when there has come to them a Messenger from Allah, fulfilling that which is with them, a party of the people to whom the Book was given have thrown the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if they knew it not.

[2:119] And those who have no knowledge say, ‘Why does not Allah speak to us, or a Sign come to us?’ Likewise said those before them similar to their saying. Their hearts are alike. We have certainly made the Signs plain for a people who firmly believe.

[5:111] When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”

[6:5] And there comes not to them any Sign of the Signs of their Lord, but they turn away from it.

[6:6] So they rejected the truth when it came to them; but soon shall come to them the tidings of that at which they mocked.

[6:8] And if We had sent down to thee a writing upon parchment and they had felt it with their hands, even then the disbelievers would have surely said, ‘This is nothing but manifest sorcery.’

 

[Rational_Mind]

Were is your proof inside that reply, please quote it for me?
How did i show disrespect to the Quran please refrain yourself from such horrible accusations.

I do belief the Quran's position to be ultimate true i just don't dont belief your interpretation on it is right nor does the rest of the Muslim population do so what your are actually saying is that all Muslims are liars. I had nothing to refute over Bukhari? Weren't you the one claiming that Bukhari had to mention it for no specific reason wherein later you accepted he didn't have to?

So i am arrogant and blind for asking ONE SINGLE REFERENCE?

Are you just mad at me because you know that you cannot bring forth anything i asked? I don't even think Muslims should debate or discuss this with you until you can reply on this:

When I focused the discussion to Imam Bukhari you continue to attempt to change the topic. You stopped responding once I provided sound logical arguments and showed that your refutations were not sound neither logical. I have yet to make you understand what an inductive argument is. I have yet to get any apology from you on the statements you made from a perspective of lack of knowledge of the claims of the Promised Messiah (as).

You keep asking how you showed disrespect for the Holy Quran. Let me remind you that you stated this "I do belief the Quran's position to be ultimate true i just don't dont belief your interpretation on it is right", among other statements the like of this. You started off by saying lets only go to Hadith, because you could not accept that the Quran cannot be misinterpreted without contradicting. And quite frankly, I really do not care what the majority opinion is, I have stated the Quranic verse on this before and I know you really don't like it, but there is no concept in Islam that majority is right.

Unfortunately, you have probably never read a single book of the Promised Messiah (as), you have only rejected him on hearsay. If you had your questions would be from a more knowledgeable perspective.

If you rather spend time in prayers asking for sign rather than asking for signs to disbelieve claimant maybe that would help. You cannot seem to understand the simplest of things, maybe it is a language barrier. I did my best to make it obvious that the argument about Sahih Bukhari is valid, I never asked you to accept that Imam Mahdi and Isa are one but atleast accept that we are not twisting anything but presented truth that it is unusual that a Imam like Imam Bukari would keep narrations of a figure as important as Imam Mahdi out of his book. You never understood what an inductive argument is so, there is not much more I can do.

I do not see how further discussion is worth while if something as simple as a fact that Imam Bukari and Sahih Muslim never used the term "Imam Mahdi" has eluded you all together. To me it appears as denial, you keep stating this does not suggest anything, when on the contrary this suggest that there must be a very important reason why they did not do such. Until you accept this fact, in my opinion it is not worthy of my time to engage in a discussion with someone who has not spent time to research the opposing viewpoint but is willing to debate with little knowledge of what he is refuting. I would rather spend that time helping those who have asked me more sincere questions about the Ahmadiyya Viewpoint.

Here is the last sign I will leave that is in the Quran and the Hadith, leaves no option out that it is not referring to Messiah of Israel as it says he will come from among you, and since he is a Prophet of God, he cannot be the concept of Imam Mahdi you are taught:

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance; [62:4] And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

A companion of The Holy Prophet sa relates: One day we were sitting with The Holy Prophet sa when this chapter was revealed. I enquired from Muhammad sa. Who are the people to whom the words and among others of them who have not yet joined them refer? Salman ra, a Persian was sitting among us. The Holy Prophet sa put his hand on Salman ra and said.If faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from among these would surely find it. (Bukhari).
alislam.org

Imam Abu Abdullah Al-Bukhari, may Allah have mercy upon him, recorded that Abu Hurayrah said,
"We were sitting with the Prophet, when Surah Al-Jumu`ah was revealed to him; وَآخَرِينَ مِنْهُمْ لَمَّا يَلْحَقُوا بِهِمْ (And others among them who have not yet joined them). They said, `Who are they, O Allah's Messenger'
The Prophet did not reply until they repeated the question thrice.
At that time, Salman Al-Farisi was with us. So Allah's Messenger placed his hand on Salman, saying,
لَوْ كَانَ الْإِيمَانُ عِنْدَ الثُّرَيَّا لَنَالَهُ رِجَالٌ أَوْ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هؤُلَاءِ
If faith were on Ath-Thurayya (Pleiades), even then some men or a man from these people would attain it.''
Muslim, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa`i, Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir collected this Hadith.
-Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Interestingly people fail to note that it was a Prophet of God who was sent earlier, and it will OBVIOUSLY be a Prophet of God who will be sent later. It if was not there is no reason that a parallel can be drawn between the two comings. The first and the second. Regardless of what Ibn Kathir or anyone's opinion is, the Quran is clear, the first coming was a Prophet and the second coming is called in similitude to it, also it mentions ONE PERSON, not multiple Mujaddids who are not given the title of Prophethood. Also note this was in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukari, they felt this was important!

 

[FearGod]

Refer to bold. Your sincerity is displayed by that statement. Lets also quote your first statement:




My response:



So you asked if they appeared in the Era of the Promised Messiah (as).

The hadith is talking about the competition for tall buildings among the camel shepherds and not in USA,so do you think the shepherds were competing for taller
buildings at the time of your promised messiah.

The taller building in the world is located in Dubai and they are still competing themselves to go further than 1 km in height.

That is the clear sign.

There is a reason why I will not continue to fulfill your requests for signs unless you accept the clear one that you first requested.

One who denies one clear sign, as per the Quran:

[2:100] And surely, We have sent down to thee manifest Signs, and no one disbelieves in them but the disobedient.

Treatment of the Quran by some Muslims who run to Hadith and also deny authenticity every Prophetic Hadith that comes true is similar to:
[2:102] And now when there has come to them a Messenger from Allah, fulfilling that which is with them, a party of the people to whom the Book was given have thrown the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if they knew it not.

[2:119] And those who have no knowledge say, ‘Why does not Allah speak to us, or a Sign come to us?’ Likewise said those before them similar to their saying. Their hearts are alike. We have certainly made the Signs plain for a people who firmly believe.

[5:111] When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”

[6:5] And there comes not to them any Sign of the Signs of their Lord, but they turn away from it.

[6:6] So they rejected the truth when it came to them; but soon shall come to them the tidings of that at which they mocked.

[6:8] And if We had sent down to thee a writing upon parchment and they had felt it with their hands, even then the disbelievers would have surely said, ‘This is nothing but manifest sorcery.’

So you can see that your argument for the competition of taller buildings at the time of Mirza Gulam Ahmed doesn't hold water and also i hope you'll answer my other questions.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Were is your proof inside that reply, please quote it for me?
How did i show disrespect to the Quran please refrain yourself from such horrible accusations.


I do belief the Quran's position to be ultimate true i just don't dont belief your interpretation on it is right nor does the rest of the Muslim population do so what your are actually saying is that all Muslims are liars. I had nothing to refute over Bukhari? Weren't you the one claiming that Bukhari had to mention it for no specific reason wherein later you accepted he didn't have to?

So i am arrogant and blind for asking ONE SINGLE REFERENCE?

Are you just mad at me because you know that you cannot bring forth anything i asked? I don't even think Muslims should debate or discuss this with you until you can reply on this:

The hadith is talking about the competition for tall buildings among the camel shepherds and not in USA,so do you think the shepherds were competing for taller
buildings at the time of your promised messiah.

The taller building in the world is located in Dubai and they are still competing themselves to go further than 1 km in height.

That is the clear sign.

So you can see that your argument for the competition of taller buildings at the time of Mirza Gulam Ahmed doesn't hold water and also i hope you'll answer my other questions.

In a hadith recorded in Sahih Muslim, Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) told us that “you shall see barefoot, naked, penniless shepherds vying in constructing high buildings.”

Can't wait to see that literally never happen, you will pass away, your children will pass away, their children will pass away, generations after generations. We both know neither will a man descend literally from the sky neither will literally naked sheppards be seen competing for buildings. The meaning of Prophetic terms will continue to elude you.

There is no compulsion in religion. As clear as the sign was manifest IN THE HOUR of the Promised Messiah (as) shows that his claim was at the right time, the competition started from America, where the culture of Dajjal is born. The Muslims were sent a Warner, they denied him and joined them in competing with buildings. You can continue to believe whatever you are comfortable with.

No matter how clear a sign is only an excuse is needed to deny it. The vast variations of Hadith give anyone the chance to pick any variation that was varied in transmission. When one comes true there should be no more questions, because Allah (swt) is the guardian of true prophecies.

Peace be Upon you, if you ever read the works of the Promised Messiah (as) or put your complete trust in the Quran and want to test his claim with research and sincerity, let me know. There is no compulsion in religion.

 

[FearGod]

Can't wait to see that literally never happen, you will pass away, your children will pass away, their children will pass away, generations after generations. We both know neither will a man descend literally from the sky neither will literally naked sheppards be seen competing for buildings. The meaning of Prophetic terms will continue to elude you.

There is no compulsion in religion. As clear as the sign was manifest IN THE HOUR of the Promised Messiah (as) shows that his claim was at the right time, the competition started from America, where the culture of Dajjal is born. The Muslims were sent a Warner, they denied him and joined them in competing with buildings. You can continue to believe whatever you are comfortable with.

No matter how clear a sign is only an excuse is needed to deny it. The vast variations of Hadith give anyone the chance to pick any variation that was varied in transmission. When one comes true there should be no more questions, because Allah (swt) is the guardian of true prophecies.

Peace be Upon you, if you ever read the works of the Promised Messiah (as) or put your complete trust in the Quran and want to test his claim with research and sincerity, let me know. There is no compulsion in religion.

So you think it isn't logical that Jesus PBUH to descend from heaven.

What do you think of Adam PBUH,did he descend to earth from heaven or god created him on earth.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So you think it isn't logical that Jesus PBUH to descend from heaven.

What do you think of Adam PBUH,did he descend to earth from heaven or god created him on earth.

It isn't logical for a human being to live in Heaven, humans must live and die on the Earth. It is the law of Allah (swt).

[7:25] He said, ‘Go forth, some of you being enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time.’

[7:26] He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’

Since I cannot deny the verses of the Quran it is absurd for me to hold a view contradictory to the teachings of the Quran.

[19:31] He said, ‘I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet;

[19:32] ‘And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live;

Apparently there is almsgiving in heaven...

I also think it is illogical that the Holy Prophet (saw) was persecuted more that Jesus (as) yet he was not ascended to Heavens, rather Jesus (as) apparently was ascended to Heaven on the first sign of trouble. It is also illogical that there is yet to be any known man who descended from Heaven, it is also illogical that Quran has never said Jesus (as) went to Heaven in the first place.

I find it illogical that those who believe a man of God passed away like every other Prophet of God are asked to provide evidence, when on the contrary those who state he ascended to Heaven should be responsible for proving such an unusual claim.

To discuss about Adam (as) refer to my thread under same-faith debates on "Islam, the Qur'an and Evolution"

 

[F0uad]

Ok i will reply to your original argument i actually did before, but i think you just ignored what i wrote.
Now if i reply to this hopefully you will answer also a question i raised earlier on.

I do not see how further discussion is worth while if something as simple as a fact that Imam Bukari and Sahih Muslim never used the term "Imam Mahdi" has eluded you all together. To me it appears as denial, you keep stating this does not suggest anything, when on the contrary this suggest that there must be a very important reason why they did not do such. Until you accept this fact, in my opinion it is not worthy of my time to engage in a discussion with someone who has not spent time to research the opposing viewpoint but is willing to debate with little knowledge of what he is refuting. I would rather spend that time helping those who have asked me more sincere questions about the Ahmadiyya Viewpoint.

So i will repeat myself again because i think your missing the point or you just refuse to accept it.

The word "Mahdi", as reported by Thouban(RZ), is the title given by the Seal of the Prophets (SAWS) to his perfect follower. Hence, it is narrated from the Noble Prophet(SAWS) that he said "Fa Iza ....." [If you see him, plead allegiance to him even if you have to go crawling over ice for he is the Caliph of Allah, the Mahdi]. While explaining the authorities of this Hadith in the book Ibn-Majah it is written on page #1366 under the chapter "Emergence of the MahdiAS" that all the authorities of the (aforesaid) Hadith are authentic. The narrator is reliable and Hakim has reported it in his book Mustadrak and said that [this Hadith] "is authentic as per the conditions of the Shaykhain [i.e. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim]" [Hadith #4084].

If your question again is who is Hakim i already explained this but you ignored it and made assumustions, i was referring to Hakim_al-Nishaburi the author of Mustadrak if you actually read my arguments for once instead of thinking you know better you would have known it heck i said Hakim has reported it in his book Mustadrak, does Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah have a book titled Mustadra? Now if you reject the work of Hakim for mystical reasons then you still have the author of Ibn-Majah in hes book referring to Bukhari so choose your picks.

Now your assuming that if Bukhari doesn't mention the title itself then therefore its invalid?? You still didn't have address this because its very clear and you accepted it that Bukhari left out Authentic work. Moreover if we would use your reasoning on the Quran instead of the specific claim your making then we can dismiss any Hadith don't you see this problem?

In each reply i hear you think that your are superior or have real knowledge regarding certain subjects while this isn't the case at all. Tell me how much do you know of Bukhari and hes works? Have you ever read hes biography, hes criteria that he used, the commentaries or read any of hes manuscripts well i can say with all honesty i have.


Now lets look at the history and the arguments of our conversation:

1. You quoted: Masnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411 a Fabricated Hadith to support your claim that you did not try to defend.
   
2. You have not addressed the fact that its mass-transmitted by almost everyone.
   
3. You stated this in a prior post:

   I highly highly doubt that Imam Bukhari did not believe in Imam Mahdi. So there is no need to discuss this as we are agreed.

   so what reason for you is to even discuss this?
   
4. There are hadiths in Bukhari that mentions two persons a Imam and a Messiah two different persons.
   
5. You accepted the fact that Bukhari left out Authentic hadiths
   
6. After showing you evidence that The Mahdi is mentioned in Sahih muslim you totally ignored it and said that Sahih Muslim never mentions him Al-Mahdi yet its mentioned in Sahih Muslim in meaning ("A leader shall emerge..."), in the chapter on Fitan, in the same hadith where Abu Dawud mentions him by name. There are also reports from Sahih Muslim that clearly makes the distinction between the two.
   
7. You still haven't made it clear what you are trying to point out by saying that Bukhari didn't mention him, yet you agreed that he did belief in him.
   
8. You said:

   I have not denied that authentic Hadith exist on Imam Mahdi in Sahih traditions.

   if this is the case why even continue?
   
9. In all your posts you have no quoted one single verse or hadith that specifically says that the Mahdi and Messiah are the same person yet there is a mass-transmission that says they aren't, you still haven't address this point.
   
10. You did not address this hadith:
    Bukhari, kitabul-Anbiya, Chapter Nuzul Isa bin Maryam:
    The holy Prophet(SAW) said:
    What would be your situation if the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is from among you?

Now i have two questions:

• A). What are you trying to point out when you keep saying that Bukhari didn't mention The Mahdi? Since we know and we both accepted that he believed in him and knew about him.
  
• B). Is there any specific Verse or Hadith that you can give me that gives us a indication they are the two same person?

 

[Rational_Mind]

@F0uad:

The confusion here is that you are trying to make sense of the Ahmadiyya Viewpoint with only fragments of knowledge on our view. Unfortunately, from what it appears, most of it you have picked up from non-Ahmadi lectures, sermons, websites,and some online discussions with Ahmadi's. Since you have not encompassed the complete picture, the region where I say you lack knowledge, you are trying to refute something with arguments that do not stand solid ground. There are two ways I see it:

1- If you are interested in discussion because you want to make sure you have not wrongly rejected a Prophet of God, then we can discuss this after I have posted the Ahmadi view point on Imam Mahdi and Isa Ibn Maryam under Ahmadiyya DIR.

2. If you simply feel we are blatant liars and you intent to convince me that I do not know the true Islamic Concept about Imam Mahdi and Ibn Maryam then I would walk away from such a discussion. Not because I fear your arguments, but rather because I do not find it worthy that I should discuss such a topic with somebody who himself has not thoroughly studied that which he is telling me to turn away from.

The reason I no longer find it worthy to put in effort here to respond to each of your posts is for the following two reasons:

a. Most have already been answered but you are confused about because you are missing the complete picture of what the Ahmadiyya perspective is and what the basis of our perspective is. Some are based on inductive arguments (not arguments as in yelling at each other, but premises that lead to a conclusion), that you may not have studied. There is a tested pattern of reasoning I have tried my best to apply, such that ensures that one reaches the truth. Although some arguments may seem logical to you, under closer study we learn that they are unsound.

b. The effort I put in such a discussion will get lost among the large number of posts and will not be of benefit, moreover, it will neither be organized or concise.

Kindly let me know if you feel that Ahmadiyya is blatant falsehood and you are attempting to turn me away from it. The reason being, I see the same arguments repeated over and over again, they are from the same lectures, the same online posts, they all lack research about Ahmadiyya view. I have yet to have had a discussion with any Non-Ahmadi who had actually read a single book of the Promised Messiah (as), moreover, most people have their view against Ahmadiyyat because of hearsay, and lectures they have heard. There is no non-Ahmadi Muslim that I know of who has an opinion against Ahmadiyyat and it was a view that they formed themselves from researching directly the Ahmadiyya literature, it is rather from lectures, anti-ahmadiyya books, and hearsay.

If this is the case then I have spent already too much time while others who have developed an interest in Ahmadiyya Islam have had there questions left unanswered.

 

[F0uad]

Rational Mind the problem is when dealing with such subject we will have a discussion in the size of a book. Thats why i picked out one subject to start with and that was hadith, you then jumped to Bukhari and made some statements about him.

I am willing to discuss a specific subject with a open mind (not that i will accept it) but i can accept your different interpretation. If you don't want to stay on the subject of Hadiths and if the Mahdi and Messiah are two different persons or not then please mention a other one that has to do with the Ahmahiddiya viewpoint that is reasonable to debate or discuss. Could you also just answer the two questions..

 

[Rational_Mind]

Rational Mind the problem is when dealing with such subject we will have a discussion in the size of a book. Thats why i picked out one subject to start with and that was hadith, you then jumped to Bukhari and made some statements about him.

I am willing to discuss a specific subject with a open mind (not that i will accept it) but i can accept your different interpretation. If you don't want to stay on the subject of Hadiths and if the Mahdi and Messiah are two different persons or not then please mention a other one that has to do with the Ahmahiddiya viewpoint that is reasonable to debate or discuss. Could you also just answer the two questions..

You have stated that you will discuss with an open mind, meanwhile you state "not that I will accept it". So now I do not understand what your interest is? Are you just interested in debating Islamic topics? If this is the case then I would advise you to get entertained elsewhere.

There are so many other Questions I am trying to tend to. If your desire is only to discuss but not accept it, in that case I have no interest. I apologize but if this is the case I can waste no further time. There are many other people out there who have a sincere interest and have questions that arise from an interest in finding truth.

If anyone else is interested in those two questions and is here with the willingness to seek truth then please respond to the thread and I will address the questions. Although, I have already responded to the first question directly and explicitly in the last few posts. As to the second question I partially answered way back and did not expand on it yet as I stated earlier. I did not expand on it yet because in my opinion the questioner did not take the first step hence, there is no reason for me to prepare that second and third only to be left empty.

 

[F0uad]

You have stated that you will discuss with an open mind, meanwhile you state "not that I will accept it". So now I do not understand what your interest is? Are you just interested in debating Islamic topics? If this is the case then I would advise you to get entertained elsewhere.

My interest is learning your position while discussing it, what i meant to say is that i will be open minded about your interpretations but that doesn't mean i will accept it.

There are so many other Questions I am trying to tend to. If your desire is only to discuss but not accept it, in that case I have no interest. I apologize but if this is the case I can waste no further time. There are many other people out there who have a sincere interest and have questions that arise from an interest in finding truth.

Well i think many of us here do already think we have found the truth, isn't this a debate section instead of a dir?

If anyone else is interested in those two questions and is here with the willingness to seek truth then please respond to the thread and I will address the questions. Although, I have already responded to the first question directly and explicitly in the last few posts. As to the second question I partially answered way back and did not expand on it yet as I stated earlier. I did not expand on it yet because in my opinion the questioner did not take the first step hence, there is no reason for me to prepare that second and third only to be left empty.

No you haven't i have been asking this question over and over and i still never got a real answer to it, so instead of making these long posts with no answers just answer them directly?

I am not sure why you are playing games here Rational Mind you keep discussing and arguing things that are irrelevant to the subject, your discussing how i am approaching this instead of addressing the subject we were speaking about. Why even engage in a discussion when at the start you did not agree with the subject? You really don't make any sense..

 

[FearGod]

It isn't logical for a human being to live in Heaven, humans must live and die on the Earth. It is the law of Allah (swt).

And God got no power to change the law.

[7:25] He said, ‘Go forth, some of you being enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time.’

And where have they been before descented to earth,i hope you understand what this verse is talking about.

[7:26] He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.’

of course our souls will leave and brought forth from earth to judgement day.

Since I cannot deny the verses of the Quran it is absurd for me to hold a view contradictory to the teachings of the Quran.

No contradictory except if you want it to be so.

[19:31] He said, ‘I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet;

[19:32] ‘And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live;

Apparently there is almsgiving in heaven...

Jesus PBUH is talking of him being a prophet on earth and almsgiving and prayer as long as he lives on earth,the verses are clear except if you want to understand it otherwise.

I also think it is illogical that the Holy Prophet (saw) was persecuted more that Jesus (as) yet he was not ascended to Heavens, rather Jesus (as) apparently was ascended to Heaven on the first sign of trouble. It is also illogical that there is yet to be any known man who descended from Heaven, it is also illogical that Quran has never said Jesus (as) went to Heaven in the first place.

And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. (55)

But show me one verse in return which says that he went to India instead of being ascended to him.

I find it illogical that those who believe a man of God passed away like every other Prophet of God are asked to provide evidence, when on the contrary those who state he ascended to Heaven should be responsible for proving such an unusual claim.

is it one pillars of Islam to prove to you if Jesus was ascended to heaven or went to India to spread god's message there.




The pillars of Islam are

1. belief
2. worship
3. charitable giving
4. fasting during the month of Ramadan.
5. the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime if you were able to do so.

God won't care about such nonsense,but the only problem about Jesus PBUH that people thought him to be god in human flesh which is "Sherk",so think of him the way you wish since you are sure that he was just a prophet,then i don't have problem with that.

To discuss about Adam (as) refer to my thread under same-faith debates on "Islam, the Qur'an and Evolution"

i can't see that thread,please just give me a direct answer.

Did Adam PBUH descend from heaven to earth or was just created on earth.

 

[Rational_Mind]

And God got no power to change the law.

Sorry I do not believe in the same concept God as you. The God I know is all knowledgable, he would not reveal a verse of the Quran that says mankind will live and die on the Earth meanwhile Jesus (as) is in heaven. This is called a lie. Although, Christians do not consider Jesus (as) a human being, similar to many Muslims of this age, so for them this restriction is only for humans.

But since the Quran states he is a human I have no option to believe in such falsehood. Since he is all knowledgeable he would have been aware that he would have to lift somebody bodily to heaven and never have wrongly stated that we are confined to the Earth. My concept is not the same as Christians who consider everything that is contradictory to their own book as a "miracle". There is nothing "miraculous" in a contradiction, but only indicates a faulty concept of God. A concept of God that is not All Knowing..

And where have they been before descented to earth,i hope you understand what this verse is talking about.

Nope, the Quran does not say this. But the Bible does. Unfortunately some Muslims now interpret the Quran as if Biblical Beliefs are there background knowledge and they have deceived you.

of course our souls will leave and brought forth from earth to judgement day.

I posted a verse of the Quran, not a statement that is in your mind. THEREIN SHALL YOU LIVE, THEREIN SHALL YOU DIE. It is missing that you may be ascended to heaven to live. Since, it didn't say that, it is clear that you only go to heaven after Resurrection. If you stop letting your bias insert fragments into these verses you may be able to see what is so clear. Don't let your preconceived notions blind you, look to the Quran without bias, look for truth.

No contradictory except if you want it to be so.

There is a contradiction. Your in denial.

Jesus PBUH is talking of him being a prophet on earth and almsgiving and prayer as long as he lives on earth,the verses are clear except if you want to understand it otherwise.

Sorry let us get out of your mind and see what it actually says. The verses of the Holy Quran says "almsgiving so long as I live", since you believe Jesus (as) is alive, he must do almsgiving as long as he lives (does not have any word here to suggest earth, please clear your mind). Apparently he is currently living in Heaven, so he must do alms-giving unless he you believe he lied.

And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. (55)

But show me one verse in return which says that he went to India instead of being ascended to him.

I won't even comment on the gross mistranslation. But I will ask you for the following:
- Is it easier to migrate to Kashmir where we know today are descendants of Israel who migrated there? Or is it easier to ascend to Heaven? Because if you believe ascension happened you should not state going to a place within Earth is absurd as you just sent him away to a place nobody knows how infinitely far is. It is not even a Physical place on any map.
-Where has the Quran ever stated he ascended?
-It says it says "cause you to ascend unto me", it doesn't say Heaven. Also where is God, because Jesus (as) is ascending in that direction. I know Christians believe since Jesus is son of God he can go towards God, so what is your belief?

is it one pillars of Islam to prove to you if Jesus was ascended to heaven or went to India to spread god's message there.




The pillars of Islam are

1. belief
2. worship
3. charitable giving
4. fasting during the month of Ramadan.
5. the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in a lifetime if you were able to do so.

God won't care about such nonsense,but the only problem about Jesus PBUH that people thought him to be god in human flesh which is "Sherk",so think of him the way you wish since you are sure that he was just a prophet,then i don't have problem with that.

Belief that Jesus ascended to Heaven is a Trinitarian Belief that has no basis in the Quran.

 

[FearGod]

Sorry I do not believe in the same concept God as you. The God I know is all knowledgable, he would not reveal a verse of the Quran that says mankind will live and die on the Earth meanwhile Jesus (as) is in heaven. This is called a lie. Although, Christians do not consider Jesus (as) a human being, similar to many Muslims of this age, so for them this restriction is only for humans.

Heaven isn,t for humans,So are you saying paradise and hell is on earth and not in heaven .

But since the Quran states he is a human I have no option to believe in such falsehood. Since he is all knowledgeable he would have been aware that he would have to lift somebody bodily to heaven and never have wrongly stated that we are confined to the Earth. My concept is not the same as Christians who consider everything that is contradictory to their own book as a "miracle". There is nothing "miraculous" in a contradiction, but only indicates a faulty concept of God. A concept of God that is not All Knowing..

We aren't talking about miracles

Nope, the Quran does not say this. But the Bible does. Unfortunately Muslims now interpret the Quran as if Biblical Beliefs are there background knowledge and they have deceived you.

I don't agree with you.

I posted a verse of the Quran, not a statement that is in your mind. THEREIN SHALL YOU LIVE, THEREIN SHALL YOU DIE. It is missing that you may be ascended to heaven to live. Since, it didn't say that, it is clear that you only go to heaven after Resurrection. If you stop letting your bias insert fragments into these verses you may be able to see what is so clear. Don't let your preconceived notions blind you, look to the Quran without bias, look for truth.

The quran is clear to me and alhamdulillah I am professional in the Arabic language.

Sorry let us get out of your mind and see what it actually says. The verses of the Holy Quran says "almsgiving so long as I live", since you believe Jesus (as) is alive, he must do almsgiving as long as he lives (does not have any word here to suggest earth, please clear your mind). Apparently he is currently living in Heaven, so he must do alms-giving unless he you believe he lied.

almsgiving as long as he lives as prophet,do you think Jesus PBUH is prophet now in heaven.

I won't even comment on the gross mistranslation. But I will ask you for the following:
- Is it easier to migrate to Kashmir where we know today are descendants of Israel who migrated there? Or is it easier to ascend to Heaven? Because if you believe ascension happened you should not state going to a place within Earth is absurd as you just sent him away to a place nobody knows how infinitely far is. It is not even a Physical place on any map.
-Where has the Quran ever stated he ascended?
-It says it says "cause you to ascend unto me", it doesn't say Heaven. Also where is God, because Jesus (as) is ascending in that direction. I know Christians believe since Jesus is son of God he can go towards God, so what is your belief?

Did the quran say Jesus PBUH escaped to India.

Belief that Jesus ascended to Heaven is a Trinitarian Belief that has no basis in the Quran.

Did Adam PBUH descend from heaven to earth or was just created on earth.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Heaven isn,t for humans,So are you saying paradise and hell is on earth and not in heaven .



We aren't talking about miracles




I don't agree with you.



The quran is clear to me and alhamdulillah I am professional in the Arabic language.



almsgiving as long as he lives as prophet,do you think Jesus PBUH is prophet now in heaven.




Did the quran say Jesus PBUH escaped to India.



Did Adam PBUH descend from heaven to earth or was just created on earth.

Sorry it is beginning to seem that it may no longer worth it to continue because it seems I cannot get through to you in English. I will give you the Fatwa of the person who served as the Lead Mufti at Al-Azhar University until his passing away. In it he has declared that the Quran is clear that Jesus (as) has passed away.

Fatwa by Shiekh Mahmood Shaltut

To answer your last question yes Adam (as) was a Prophet who was born on the earth from a mother and a father. He was the first man capable of receiving revelation. This is what I find the Quran states, the rest of the story is forceful interpretation from the Biblical story of creation.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Did the quran say Jesus PBUH escaped to India.

[23:51] And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them refuge on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water.

 

[Rational_Mind]

And God got no power to change the law.

[33:63] Such has been the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away before, and thou wilt never find a change in the way of Allah.

[17:94] ‘Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say,‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.

The Holy Prophet (saw) could never ascend physically to Heaven because like he said, he is but a man sent as a Messenger. Apparently neither God nor Holy Prophet (saw) were aware that Jesus (as) has already done such.

 

[FearGod]

Sorry it is beginning to seem that it may no longer worth it to continue because it seems I cannot get through to you in English. I will give you the Fatwa of the person who served as the Lead Mufti at Al-Azhar University until his passing away. In it he has declared that the Quran is clear that Jesus (as) has passed away.

Fatwa by Shiekh Mahmood Shaltut

His Fatwa in few words is saying that discussing such issue is nonsense because whether Jesus PBUH was ascended or died has nothing to do with our faith,in other words when god will Judge our deeds then he won't ask us did you think Jesus PBUH died or ascended,so such nonsense which false prophets had used to discuss but as for prophet Mohammed PBUH he was pointing that people had gone astray by regarding Jesus as son of God and even God himself.

So you can realize that those false prophets as i can see were discussing the nonsense according to what Shiekh Mahmood Shaltut that those issues don't worth discussing because it has nothing to do with our faith.

To answer your last question yes Adam (as) was a Prophet who was born on the earth from a mother and a father. He was the first man capable of receiving revelation. This is what I find the Quran states, the rest of the story is forceful interpretation from the Biblical story of creation.

'O Adam dwell with your wife in Paradise, and eat from whatever you please; but never approach this tree or you shall both become harmdoers. ' (7:19)

So the verse clear that both were in the paradise before descended to earth.

Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time." (2:36)

The verse is clear that they were descended to earth as punishment.

So do you think that god descended them from earth to earth as a punishment or you can use the Bahai style of Metaphor that paradise means close to god and not the real paradise and earth means far from God and similar explanations to fit one's idea which doesn't make any sense.