FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Mary and her son peace be upon them run to India and your evidence is an elevated land of green valleys,are you kidding or serious.
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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Is he really Al Mahdi and the Messiah?
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
Mary and her son peace be upon them run to India and your evidence is an elevated land of green valleys,are you kidding or serious.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Dwell on the verses and have a read at the fatwa. May Allah guide you to realize sending someone to Heaven physically is the doctrine of Christianity not Islam. To you it seems going to Kashmir is amusing, you just sent a man alive into Heaven, on the basis of anything but the Quran.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
so you don't believe either that a man can be born from a mother without a father as to the miraculous case of Jesus PBUH.
Nothing amazing me since i am already amazed by the weird universe and the small seed that grows to a huge tree and the tiny sperm that evolved to a human being by the power of the creator.
But you are the one who is amazed from a simple thing and which is that god has the power to raise a man to heaven.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
The verses are very clear
[33:62] Such has been the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away before, and thou wilt never find a change in the way of Allah.
The way to salvation is one and never changed by God and obviously men are the one who mislead the others and thats the reason we can see many religions and even sections in one religion.
[17:93] ‘Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say,‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.
Of course the messengers can't order god to do something for the skeptics in order for them to believe, that is returned to God's will if he wanted to do so,the messengers are just humans and they can't do any thing by their own.
When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Observe your duty to Allah, if ye are true believers. (5:112)
(They said We wish to eat thereof, that we may satisfy our hearts and know that thou hast spoken truth to us, and that thereof we may be witnesses. (5:113)
Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Allah, Lord of us! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers. (5:114)
Allah said: Lo! I send it down for you. And whoso disbelieveth of you afterward, him surely will I punish with a punishment wherewith I have not punished any of (My) creatures. (5:115)
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Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I am confused why it matters from your perspective. I have understood that the term "Khatamun Nabiyeen" is conclusive to mean "last" PERIOD.
So No Prophet of God can come PERIOD. From your perspective Quran says no Prophets will come PERIOD. So whether they are same or not is not the question. They will be rejected regardless they descent from the sky as one, or as two from the Earth, as Prophethood has ended PERIOD.
The reason I will not continue such a discussion is because it is utterly useless. Even if, if ever, ever, you realize that Imam Mahdi and Isa are the same person described it doesn't matter. Why? Refer to all the PERIODS.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
This is because there are many reports that they aren't the same person yet you are claiming they are... (with all respect)
Were did ''we'' say that Jesus(pbuh) or the Mahdi will come as a prophet?
This made no sense nor was the Mahdi ever called a prophet but rather a Imam. Moreover Jesus(pbuh) was already a prophet therefore he doesn't become one again.
Its very relevant to the discussion because if i said that i was the Messiah yet any report or verse contradicts that statement then how credible was my statement in the first place?
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I have never denied that Hadith exist on Imam Mahdi and Isa Ibn Maryam that state one will pray behind the other. I state that they are extremely faulty on a couple of counts, here are the few I remember from memory:
- Imam Mahdi and Isa Ibn Maryam (called Imam Mahdiyan) are both called Imam's in Hadith.
- Isa Ibn Maryam is a Prophet but he reads prayers behind a person who is lower status. Prophethood is the highest status a human can reach on a spiritual level. Your Imam should be chosen to be of the highest spiritual status. Hence the most righteous are picked when leading prayers. But contrarily Imam Mahdi is more worthy of being Imam.
- They are both called a Khalifa in Hadith. Hadith also state there can only be one Khalifa, if there are two, kill the latter.
- Sunni Muslims, most of them, say Isa (as) will be Ummuti, so the question is why an Ummuti cannot lead prayers.
- The Hadith that says "How will it be with you when Ibn Maryam will descend among you and your Imam at that is one of you?" Sunni Muslims suggest the Imam being referred is no Ibn Maryam but Imam Mahdi. Question now arises is that why does it need to state that Imam will be from among you. From this interpretation it is clear that Jesus (as) is not considered Ummati, as he is not the Imam, but rather the Imam is from among the Muslims. Moreover, when has there been an Imam that is not a Muslim, why did the Hadith need to state that he will be from among you.
Also, Jesus (as) was a Prophet sent to the Israelites (as per Quranic verse), so when he returns he will still be a Prophet sent to Israelites. Only the Holy Prophet (saw) is accepted as Prophet sent to all of Mankind by your view, so how are you stating Jesus (as) will remain a Prophet, if he does then he is not a Prophet to Muslims, yet we are to await his appearance??? Secondly, where is it stated in FINALITY OF PROPHETHOOD that a past Prophet can reappear, I thought the view was LAST PERIOD. As it appears, exceptions are being made to accommodate a Prophet of Jews into a Prophet of Muslims, if that isn't new Prophethood, what else is it?
Hopefully you can understand the plethora of contradictions here. I have waited years for single response to any single contradiction that wasn't a clear cop out.
Also it is irrelevant because even if Messiah and Imam Mahdi are the same you wouldn't accept anyone who claims to be a Prophet after Holy Prophet (saw) unless he be a Prophet who was only sent to Israel, was taken up alive while the Holy Prophet (Saw) suffered, only to return later and descend from the sky. Something that has never happened before and a place where Quran never stated he ascended.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
I am sorry rational mind but you really turned it around here, instead of answering me my question you raised question. I am just asking a simple question and if you just directly answer it i will answer yours i promise.
Is there a single (just one) hadith that is authentic that supports the claim that they are the same person yes or no?
Is there a single (just one) hadith that is authentic that supports the claim that they are the same person yes or no?
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Yea, they all do. Every single one you mentioned as authentic supports that Imam Mahdi and Messiah are either the same or neither are coming. Since you are not of the opinion that neither are coming you have just left with the last option.
The very Hadith you have posted for your support seem to clearly suggest that Imam Mahdi and Messiah are the same. Either that or the other alternative is to deny all the Hadith on Imam Mahdi and Messiah. Unless ofcourse, you can resolve the contradiction and prove that the Hadith are actually stating that Imam Mahdi and Messiah are different and this concept doesn't contradict teachings of the Quran.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Ok please quote me which hadith that say that the Mahdi and Messiah are the same person because i have been asking for a long time now.
The concept doesn't contradict the Quran because the Quran doesn't mention any Mahdi but please go ahead and show me which hadiths tells us that they are the same person.
I will reply tomorrow its late here.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
The request you make is basically what is provided in a Hadith that has been rejected even though it is more sensible and valid, but you persist for me to provide you with mention of Imam Mahdi when two of the greatest collectors of Hadith avoided altogether in their collections. Because it was the opinion of most of the Muhadditheen that Hadith related with the term Imam Mahdi are either highly highly weak, unreliable, and fabricated. (One proof of this is the FACT that Imam Bukari and Imam Muslim never cite a single hadith with the term Imam Mahdi). They understood that Imam Mahdi and Ibn Maryam are two titles for the same person, like state in the Hadith that Imam will be from among you. They avoided the term "Imam Mahdi" because it brought a greater likelyhood it would be fabricated, interestingly, these Hadith with term Imam Mahdi included in them form the basis of your view. Again, I don't deny the term Imam Mahdi, I simply state in most usages the Hadith is questionable, the one in Ibn Majah and the one that states Isa is Imam Mahdiyyan are more solid.
I think you should question Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim for not including the term Imam Mahdi, and of the remaining Hadith that suggest Imam all seem to indicate that the Imam is Ibn Maryam. Hence Imam Bukari and Imam Muslim have given support to the same idea expressed in Ibn Majah.
So those who question the authenticity of La Mahdi Illa Isa should understand that two of the biggest Muhadditheen are clearly contrary to their opinion.
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
We had a whole discussion on this subject but you didn't give me any reference how amazing. As i have already explained Bukhari did mention the title Mahdi as did Sahih Muslim hence Sahih Muslim has passed down the hadiths that clearly makes a distinction between the Mahdi and Messiah i have given you these references so either your ignorant or your just making things up.
Your argument goes as following: Bukhari didn't mention The Mahdi therefore Bukhari understood it to be same person as the Messiah.
Where is your evidence for this, its just a theory that you made up with no evidence. Be honest in answering this, don't you find it strange that there is NO and i really mean NO hadith that records the things your saying?
Ps: I even quoted Bukhari to show the difference between the Messiah and Imam.
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Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
In all honesty I am under the impression that you either don't read or don't have sufficient communication skills in English. I am also sure you don't know what argumentation is as you have used faulty argumentation and straw man attacks.
You stated that if I reply to you then you would reply to my questions. It has been years these questions have been left unanswered. The moment you realize how faulty your beliefs on Imam Mahdi and Ibn Maryam are you would instantly realize that Ahmadi Viewpoint is correct.
So to me it seems your internal bias won't let you get through to facts. Since, I am not God, I cannot convince you, neither is it my responsibility to enforce sight onto those unwilling to benefit from light.
For anyone else reading this thread. My argument was quite clear, but I will reiterate it one more time.
Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim compiled numerous Hadith on the days of the Dajjal. They formed an entire section dedicated to coming of Isa (as). Within there is mentions of many prophecies, among these there is also mention of an Imam. Never even one, ever, ever, ever, ever have they included the term "Imam Mahdi". My opponent on this topic here has suggested that since they left out many other authentic narrations so did they leave out narrations on "Imam Mahdi". He fails to acknowledge that the narrations they left out were either they felt redundant, faulty, or high risk. They prioritized the most important ones, interestingly they included the mention of Ibn Maryam but not once, ever, ever, ever, mentioned a companion to accompany him named "Imam Mahdi".
It is a well known and accepted that the collectors of Hadith were of the opinion that narrations related to Imam Mahdi were among the most weak and fabricated Hadith. It happened to be that when the term "Imam Mahdi" they often turned out to be faulty and fabricated. These are the category of Hadith that are among the weak ones, some may be authentic, but most are faulty, weak, and fabricated. The basis of mainstream belief lies on these Hadith that interestingly the two most reputable books of Hadith, Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are completely, completely, completely silent on.
Hence, it has been established that those Hadith that contain the term "Imam Mahdi" are generally Hadith we should not rely on. This doesn't mean that everything related with the term "Imam Mahdi" is faulty, but rather most are.
Let me now address some the one Hadith from Bukari that mentions the term "Imam". Here below is the quote taken from F0uad who himself has given it as proof of his claim, although interestingly, it is complete against his view:
First and foremost, he states that this Hadith says that Imam will be from among ourselves. This has been an obvious fact known by every Muslim who prayed from the time of the Holy Prophet (saw) till today. Never has there been a non-Muslim been the Imam of Muslims. So the question is, why does it say "and your Imam is from among you?". Could anyone name a single Imam of Muslims that was ever a Non-Muslim? None exists. So did the Holy Prophet (saw) make a obvious statement that seems to be completely unrelated to the first statement in this narration?
Our friend here suggests that the "Imam" is referring to "Imam Mahdi". Lets count just a few contradictions:
1. Sunni Muslims are of the view that Isa (as) will be Ummati on his return, it appears to solve this dilemma brother F0uad has changed his view. So how does an non-Ummati lead Muslims into battle when he is from "the Jewish community".
2. Sunni Muslims believe that finality of Prophethood would not be broken because of two reasons, one that Isa (as) was born before Holy Prophet (saw), second, he will be Ummati on his return. Interestingly, our friend here seems oppose the second reason. By doing such he has himself broken the absolute finality he apparently holds so close to his heart. Why? Because we know that since this Prophet is coming to Muslims this time around, so he will lead Muslims (an Imam is also a leader) into battle. So for his second coming he needs new Prophethood, not the Prophethood of "the Jewish community" but Prophethood of Muslims.
3. The Quran has layed out in many verses that a Prophet of God is the highest status a Man can achieve. They are described to be among the most exalted men. When picking our Imam to lead prayers we are instructed to choose the most righteous one. Yet, our friend here suggests that he will not be worthy of leading the prayers. Here is a reference "'Isa, the son of Maryam will then descend and their ameer (leader) will invite him to come and lead them in prayer but he will say that Allah had honored this people and so some of them are leaders over others (of them)." (Muslim, Ahmad p. 60) This statement shows that apparently a Prophet of God is not honored enough to lead Prayers, the question is does a non-Prophet here have a higher status that a Prophet?
4. Both Isa and Imam Mahdi are called "Khalifa" in Hadith, lets see below:
"Beware, there shall be no prophet or messenger between Jesus, the son of Mary, and me. Remember, he shall be my Khalifa in my Ummah after me..." (Tibrani p. 95)
"Hadrat Thauban relates that the Holy Prophet sa said: 'When you find the Mahdi, perform ba'it at his hands. You must go to him, even if you have to reach him across icebound mountains on your knees.
He is the Mahdi, the Khalifa of Allah." (Ibn-e-Majah Kitabul Fitn)
Interestingly, the Khalifa who is also a Prophet of God is not worthy of leading prayers. Moreover, according to Sahih Muslim there cannot be two Khalifa's.
When an oath of allegiance has been taken for two caliphs, kill the one for whom the oath was taken later. (Sahih Muslim Kitabul Imarah Chapter 20-15)
Hence, our friend here should be the first to follow through with his belief and slay the person whom oath is taken later.
Conclusion from this one Hadith supported by many other's is as follows. The term above "Imam" is not referring to a second person but the Isa ibn Maryam who is also the Imam. Now let me prove my solution is not simply a coincidence that solves our brothers plethora of contradictions:
Isa (as) is called Imam and Mahdi:
"Whosoever lives from among you shall meet Isa, son of Mary who is Imam, Mahdi, Arbiter and Judge."
(Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411)
The term used is Imam Mahdiya, I am not making this up, check a scan of it here.
Isa (as) is called the only Imam Mahdi:
"There is no Mahdi except Isa." (Ibn Maja, Bab Shiddatuz Zaman)
One last note, there has never been a person who one must accept and if he or she doesn't it is disbelief so far that almost all non-Ahmadi Muslims believe that rejecting such a person is Kufr. Who is this person? Let us see the importance of his acceptance layed down by the following saying of Holy Prophet (saw):
"When you hear the advent of Mahdi it is then enjoined on you to enter into his Baiat (i.e. to enter into his fold) even if you have to walk on snow by crawling and creeping to reach him."
(Kanzul Ummal; also footnotes to Musnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. 29-30)
If this man is not a Prophet what else is he? Is there a mention of any other person in the history known to be a non-Prophet who's acceptance is so compulsory that disbelieving in him is Kufr.
"He who dies in a condition that he has not recognized the Imam of his age dies a death of ignorance."
(Musnad Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Vol. 4, p. 96)
Please also note that when reference to the Quran is given it has been completely ignored. Post 64
I have unfortunately ran out of time, belief me there is much more. But at this point it is clear neither has the Ulama of our friend here ever solved this mystery and never will they solve mystery.
BTW, if any person here is getting convinced and you want references to Muslims who held this view before the coming of Imam Mahdi and have written about it, I can reference you.
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loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
This is a good lecture by Yasir Qadhi on this topic :
[youtube]1oCf7ae__kk[/youtube]
The Mahdi Between Fact and Fiction
He explains through research all the authentic hadith related to this topic.
Also, I would just add some clear Hadith regarding the seal of Prophethood ...
Saying of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) :
My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.
(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)
Not to forget that according to Hadith, the Prophet actually had a physical 'seal' of 'prophethood' between his shoulder blades by which others recognized him to be a True prophet.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)
Sahih Muslim
Book 030, Number 5793
Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and ate with him bread and meat, or he said Tharid (bread soaked in soup). I said to him: Did Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) seek forgiveness for you? He said: Yes, and for you, and he then recited this verse: "Ask forgiveness for thy sin and for the believing men and believing women" (xlvii. 19). I then went after him and saw the Seal of Prophethood between his shoulders on the left side of his shoulder having spots on it like moles.
[youtube]1oCf7ae__kk[/youtube]
The Mahdi Between Fact and Fiction
He explains through research all the authentic hadith related to this topic.
Also, I would just add some clear Hadith regarding the seal of Prophethood ...
Saying of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) :
My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.
(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)
Not to forget that according to Hadith, the Prophet actually had a physical 'seal' of 'prophethood' between his shoulder blades by which others recognized him to be a True prophet.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated As-Sa'ib bin Yazid:
My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs." So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah's blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)
Sahih Muslim
Book 030, Number 5793
Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and ate with him bread and meat, or he said Tharid (bread soaked in soup). I said to him: Did Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) seek forgiveness for you? He said: Yes, and for you, and he then recited this verse: "Ask forgiveness for thy sin and for the believing men and believing women" (xlvii. 19). I then went after him and saw the Seal of Prophethood between his shoulders on the left side of his shoulder having spots on it like moles.
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Hey mate If you have a Rational Mind like your username claims, you should look into the your logic behind the Quran being la raibh, What you have qouted from is not the unprotected unchanged Quran, it is a translation and a mere interpretation of whom ever translated it, and cannot be taken as the Word of God, to truly understand the Quran you must learn arabic and then find your own meanings. So do you read or speak arabic?
What we need to understand is that the Arabic Quran is the unchanged word of God, any translations cannot be taken as the Word of God, but as mere interpretations of the translators.
It is the same as the Catholic Christians who justify Jesus being the Son of God by saying that for Jesus a capital S was used and for every other son a small s was used. They forget that the Bible's original language is Aramaic and that there is no use of capital or small letters in its script. They take the translation as the word of God which is the same as what you have done.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Bro what you fail to realize is the other side of the argument, we have been warned of 30 dajjals and Al-Maseeh (The Messiah) Ad-Dajjal, (The Liar/Deceiver). We have also been told that he will claim prophethood and will perform miracles, the point these guys are making is that if you chose to believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who performed no apparent miracles, and merely interpreted the Quran for his followers than what will you do when The Great Deciever will perform miracles infront of you? You will surely jump ship and join his side, how could you not?
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kindly count the number of claimants. Claimants started from the very death of the Holy Prophet (saw). If it matters to you, the number has gone way way past thirty. Secondly, based on this you can reject any claimant regardless he is or not of the thirty.
Your concept of the Dajjal in my opinion is not what has actually been narrated in the Hadith. For him to be able to do Godly things is against the concept of God and contradicts the Quran. It is unfortunate Muslims believe that a man can do Godly things for "testing" purposes. It is only logical that humans would follow such a person as he has proved himself as "god". So this entire idea is anything but rational.
Please first try to understand our perspective. It is completely false that he did not perform miracles. He fixed the interpretation of the Quran as it has been taken with perverted interpretations. Some fellow members here have gone as far as to abrogate verses of the Quran as their understanding contradicts between verses.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Yes I can read arabic, but I am not capable enough to translate it. But I am able to use classical arabic lexicons. The Promised Messiah (as) knew better arabic than anyone in this age, so far as to those people who didn't accept him had to accept this fact.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I am aware of these Hadith. If you have anything new to bring to the table please answer the questions above. Until then your views stand in massive contradictions