Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Is he really Al Mahdi and the Messiah?

[Rational_Mind]

A word of advice. I notice a trend here of turning the topic to elsewhere. First and foremost, most here are trying to show me the Sunni viewpoint. My friends I have read into it a lot, I have discussed it with many people, I know what your view is very well. I know the multitude of views from your perspective.

It is unfortunate that neither of you have ever read the book of the claimant whom you have knowing or unknowingly rejected. First understand it, then ask questions, let alone reject on hearsay. Please note that those who rejected Jesus (as) were the Jews who knew very little about his claims, they thought their understanding of prophecy was perfect, never gave him a chance to explain himself. Even the Holy Prophet (saw) misunderstood some prophecies, for example the occasion of Hajj after Hijra. So please don't jump to thinking that the Ulama have provided you with a perfect understanding.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I am aware of these Hadith. If you have anything new to bring to the table please answer the questions above. Until then your views stand in massive contradictions

Please show me the contradiction between the 3 hadiths I have quoted.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Yes I can read arabic, but I am not capable enough to translate it. But I am able to use classical arabic lexicons. The Promised Messiah (as) knew better arabic than anyone in this age, so far as to those people who didn't accept him had to accept this fact.

The beauty of the Quran is that it is meant to be the unchanged word of God till the end of time. When you read the Quran you might get a different meaning from it, When someone in 1000 years will read the same verse he will take a different meaning from it according to his time. I believe that God gives different people varying levels of intellectual power, maybe Einstein if he read the Quran and opened his heart to God would be able to gain a deeper meaning from it due to his higher intellect. What I am trying to say is that religion is something personal and every muslim regardless of sect should realize that we, individually need to take time to read the Quran and take meaning from it that applies to us, not what one learned person took from it or the other. I also believe we will be judged individually if we had a simple mind and could only grasp the Quran simplisticly than we will be judged accordingly, An example i used in another thread yesterday was, God will not ask a person to hammer a nail, when the person does not possess the hammer.I believe I have a direct connection with God and donot need anyone to be my mediator (middle-man). Not the sheikh in Makkah, not the Imam in my mosque, not my Father and not my Mother, If I were to do that I will be refusing to take this individul journey and will infact be following somebody else's interpretation of religion. At the end of the day I know if My heart and Intentions are clean I will find God and I have in everything around me.

I would like to point out that I do not consider myself a Sunni or a Shia or any other sect, I am a monotheist and anyone or anything that will take me away from that I reject.

 

[Monotheist 101]

List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kindly count the number of claimants. Claimants started from the very death of the Holy Prophet (saw). If it matters to you, the number has gone way way past thirty. Secondly, based on this you can reject any claimant regardless he is or not of the thirty.

Your concept of the Dajjal in my opinion is not what has actually been narrated in the Hadith. For him to be able to do Godly things is against the concept of God and contradicts the Quran. It is unfortunate Muslims believe that a man can do Godly things for "testing" purposes. It is only logical that humans would follow such a person as he has proved himself as "god". So this entire idea is anything but rational.

Please first try to understand our perspective. It is completely false that he did not perform miracles. He fixed the interpretation of the Quran as it has been taken with perverted interpretations. Some fellow members here have gone as far as to abrogate verses of the Quran as their understanding contradicts between verses.

He will not do "Godly" things he will perform miracles, do you think Jesus did Godly things or Moses did Godly things? A miracle is from God.
He will do magic, Nowadays magic is very commonly practiced around the world do you take it to be Godly?

 

[F0uad]

Thanks rational mind for still not giving me one reference until you do i see no point in answering your questions.
Most of your arguments have already been addressed in the previous pages you just ignored them.

So i will patiently wait until you show me One hadith and then i will reply as i promised, because i see no reason to discuss this without you having anything to back up your beliefs.
I have shown you a couple references that backs up mine i hope you can do the same so we finally can start a discussion that maybe can lead somewhere.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Thanks rational mind for still not giving me one reference until you do i see no point in answering your questions.
Most of your arguments have already been addressed in the previous pages you just ignored them.

So i will patiently wait until you show me One hadith and then i will reply as i promised, because i see no reason to discuss this without you having anything to back up your beliefs.
I have shown you a couple references that backs up mine i hope you can do the same so we finally can start a discussion that maybe can lead somewhere.

Thank you for trying.

 

[Rational_Mind]

He will not do "Godly" things he will perform miracles, do you think Jesus did Godly things or Moses did Godly things? A miracle is from God.
He will do magic, Nowadays magic is very commonly practiced around the world do you take it to be Godly?

What do you define as "magic". Before I discuss miracles can you define "magic", vs "miracles", vs power of god.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Please show me the contradiction between the 3 hadiths I have quoted.

I am sorry since you have not taken the time to read my posts I cannot take the time to entertain your questions. I have noticed you are a person who follows behind what others have taught you. You are unwilling to test or question your own views. I do not think me or anyone on earth could convince you otherwise. There is no compulsion in religion. I will let you be.

The beauty of the Quran is that it is meant to be the unchanged word of God till the end of time. When you read the Quran you might get a different meaning from it, When someone in 1000 years will read the same verse he will take a different meaning from it according to his time. I believe that God gives different people varying levels of intellectual power, maybe Einstein if he read the Quran and opened his heart to God would be able to gain a deeper meaning from it due to his higher intellect. What I am trying to say is that religion is something personal and every muslim regardless of sect should realize that we, individually need to take time to read the Quran and take meaning from it that applies to us, not what one learned person took from it or the other. I also believe we will be judged individually if we had a simple mind and could only grasp the Quran simplisticly than we will be judged accordingly, An example i used in another thread yesterday was, God will not ask a person to hammer a nail, when the person does not possess the hammer.I believe I have a direct connection with God and donot need anyone to be my mediator (middle-man). Not the sheikh in Makkah, not the Imam in my mosque, not my Father and not my Mother, If I were to do that I will be refusing to take this individul journey and will infact be following somebody else's interpretation of religion. At the end of the day I know if My heart and Intentions are clean I will find God and I have in everything around me.

I would like to point out that I do not consider myself a Sunni or a Shia or any other sect, I am a monotheist and anyone or anything that will take me away from that I reject.

You are correct that Quran reveals itself to those who come to it with a pure heart. The view you have presented on use of the Quran, is contained in the Quran, and it has been the most professed statement of of Ahmadi's. Seeing some of your posts earlier, I had actually thought you were Ahmadi before you introduced yourself in another thread.

The Promised Messiah (as) hence made his claim saying that Allah (swt) has provided his proofs in the Holy Quran.

 

[Monotheist 101]

What do you define as "magic". Before I discuss miracles can you define "magic", vs "miracles", vs power of god.

{They followed what the Shayatin (devils) gave out (falsely of the magic) in the lifetime of Sulaiman (Solomon). Sulaiman did not disbelieve, but the Shayatin (devils) disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down at Babylon to the two angels, Harut and Marut but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, "We are only for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us). "And from these (angels) people learn that by which they cause separation between man and his wife, but they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's Leave. And they learn that which harms them and profits them not. And indeed they knew that the buyers of it (magic) would have no share in the Hereafter. And how bad indeed was that for which they sold their own selves, if they but knew. And if they had believed and guarded themselves from evil and kept their duty to Allah, far better would have been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!}. (Al-Baqarah, 102, 103)

Magic IMO is the use of supernatural entities to manipulate our reality/ the physical 3D.

From the above statement of the Quran "Sulaiman did not disbelieve" Sulaiman did not perform magick it was God's permissable Miracle for him, the control of the Jinn. Moses did not perform magic and use the Jinn even though his staff turned into a snake and ate the sorcerers snakes.

It is funny that you ask me what I regard as magic and a miracle. While you choose to believe that someones interpretation of the Quran can be regarded as a miracle? We dont need anyone to interpret the Quran for us, We will be judged on what we understand, The main point that we can never deviate from is the Oneness of God everything else is secondary. It has been the problem of Mankind long before Mohammad and Moses and Jesus.

 

[Rational_Mind]

{They followed what the Shayatin (devils) gave out (falsely of the magic) in the lifetime of Sulaiman (Solomon). Sulaiman did not disbelieve, but the Shayatin (devils) disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down at Babylon to the two angels, Harut and Marut but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, "We are only for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us). "And from these (angels) people learn that by which they cause separation between man and his wife, but they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's Leave. And they learn that which harms them and profits them not. And indeed they knew that the buyers of it (magic) would have no share in the Hereafter. And how bad indeed was that for which they sold their own selves, if they but knew. And if they had believed and guarded themselves from evil and kept their duty to Allah, far better would have been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!}. (Al-Baqarah, 102, 103)

Magic IMO is the use of supernatural entities to manipulate our reality/ the physical 3D.

From the above statement of the Quran "Sulaiman did not disbelieve" Sulaiman did not perform magick it was God's permissable Miracle for him, the control of the Jinn. Moses did not perform magic and use the Jinn even though his staff turned into a snake and ate the sorcerers snakes.

It is funny that you ask me what I regard as magic and a miracle. While you choose to believe that someones interpretation of the Quran can be regarded as a miracle? We dont need anyone to interpret the Quran for us, We will be judged on what we understand, The main point that we can never deviate from is the Oneness of God everything else is secondary. It has been the problem of Mankind long before Mohammad and Moses and Jesus.

Can you open up a new thread with the topic Magic and Miracles in the Holy Quran.

We believe that Promised Messiah (as) was a Prophet of God. He performed miracles just like other Prophets of God are mentioned to have performed in the Holy Quran. I don't follow a Sheikh or Mullah, I follow a man who God appointed to ends sects in Islam and the distorted views of Muslims that are contradicting the Quran and originate from faulty Hadith and concepts that were merged into Islam but originated from other religions. Also to be the first person to prove that Quran is not abrogated, he resolved all apparent contradictions. I am not "Sunni" or "Shia" but a person who accepted the Imam of the Age who Allah (swt) said in the Quran will be sent to reform the world. Please note the difference, we are not a sect, we are Muslims who are united under one Khalifa in a Jamaat.

 

[Monotheist 101]

You are correct that Quran reveals itself to those who come to it with a pure heart. The view you have presented on use of the Quran, is contained in the Quran, and it has been the most professed statement of of Ahmadi's. Seeing some of your posts earlier, I had actually thought you were Ahmadi before you introduced yourself in another thread.

The Promised Messiah (as) hence made his claim saying that Allah (swt) has provided his proofs in the Holy Quran.

I do not associate myself with any sect, that being said for the Quran to be the final word of God it is only logical that Muhammad has to be his last Prophet.

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

People give importance to the second part about Mohammad being the Seal, What we need to deeply look at is the first part, "Mohammad is not the Father", What is the reason behind this? If Mohammad had fathered a son, what would have been the consequences of that?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Can you open up a new thread with the topic Magic and Miracles in the Holy Quran.

We believe that Promised Messiah (as) was a Prophet of God. He performed miracles just like other Prophets of God are mentioned to have performed in the Holy Quran. I don't follow a Sheikh or Mullah, I follow a man who God appointed to ends sects in Islam and the distorted views of Muslims that are contradicting the Quran and originate from faulty Hadith and concepts that were merged into Islam but originated from other religions. Also to be the first person to prove that Quran is not abrogated, he resolved all apparent contradictions. I am not "Sunni" or "Shia" but a person who accepted the Imam of the Age who Allah (swt) said in the Quran will be sent to reform the world. Please note the difference, we are not a sect, we are Muslims who are united under one Khalifa in a Jamaat.

You say he was appointed to end the sects in Islam, yet his actions and teachings started a few? And if he was meant to end them why do I still see so many today? Or is it something gradual?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Can you open up a new thread with the topic Magic and Miracles in the Holy Quran.

Inshallah next time I am on, It is 9am here, have to catch up on some sleep. Anyways I did not mean to offend you in anyway, everyone has a right to believe whatever they choose, Only God can be the judge. See you around

God Bless

 

[Monotheist 101]

we are not a sect, we are Muslims who are united under one Khalifa in a Jamaat

Imagine I own a factory that produces different cars, a car with four wheels will remain a car whether I label it a Merc or BMW or attach wings to it.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I am sorry since you have not taken the time to read my posts I cannot take the time to entertain your questions. I have noticed you are a person who follows behind what others have taught you. You are unwilling to test or question your own views. I do not think me or anyone on earth could convince you otherwise. There is no compulsion in religion. I will let you be.

Rather than making personal comments, you could have just explained your reason for your claims. This really shows how you make baseless claims without any evidence to back it up.

 

[Rational_Mind]

You say he was appointed to end the sects in Islam, yet his actions and teachings started a few? And if he was meant to end them why do I still see so many today? Or is it something gradual?

Your questions are valid. Let me explain it this way. After Moses (as) the Jews were split into many sects. Prophets were sent to reunite them. Before the coming of Jesus (as) they were divided into many sects. He was sent to unite the tribes of Israel back to the true teachings of Moses (as). After his coming you will note that the end result was that most Jews joined the fold of Christianity, which at the time was the teachings of Moses (as). Compare the Christian community to the Jewish community. Jesus (as) essentially eradicated Jewish sects. Until after the Christians themselves introduced concepts that were against Tauheed and the Holy Prophet (saw) came to eradicate them.

Similarly we see today Muslims are divided greatly. There are arguments over whether the Holy Prophet (saw) was noor or bashr. There are arguments over laws of Hadith which apparently overwrite the Quran. There are teachings attributed to Islam that do not originate from authentic sources. Every sect gives Takfir against the other. Hence, nobody of honest heart can deny that Muslims are heavily divided today.

How do you suppose to eradicate this? The only way it can be done is to form a community that is guaranteed to be on the correct path. Neither sect will ever accept the other as being correct. Such issues of who is correct can only be set by God, and this is always done through a Prophet. If you understand this we can continue whether the Quran says Prophet's can come today. As I know you have great honor for the Quran and don't let Hadith or the opinion of others overshadow its true meanings. (Seperate topic, hopefully that is one-on-one) Or I can start one in Ahmadiyya DIR. In all honesty I don't intend to entertain some members here who have views that the Quran has portions abrogated.

We believe that mankind has currently rejected a Prophet of God. It has suffered punishment for not willing to come back to the path of God. Such being the past two world wars, the control of Dajjal on "Muslim" countries, and as of currently the world is turning towards destroying itself.

Ahmadiyyat, by independent research, is the fastest grow community among all other Muslim sects (reference).

Imagine I own a factory that produces different cars, a car with four wheels will remain a car whether I label it a Merc or BMW or attach wings to it.

Maybe this will illustrate the difference and also answer the statement that more sects have been created. You can compare the Ahmadiyya Community the one blessed with Khilafat as the Community of Muslim who committed bait to the four Rightly Guided Khalifas (Hazrat Abu Bakr ra, Uthman ra, Umar ra, & Ali ra)

Please continue to ask questions. Honestly other than Non-Muslims, and a few Muslim converts, you are the only Muslim who has had sincere questions. I would just advise you to take time, evaluate for yourself, and decide whether first and foremost a Prophet of God can come (will discuss soon).

 

[Monotheist 101]

How do you suppose to eradicate this? The only way it can be done is to form a community that is guaranteed to be on the correct path. Neither sect will ever accept the other as being correct. Such issues of who is correct can only be set by God, and this is always done through a Prophet. If you understand this we can continue whether the Quran says Prophet's can come today. As I know you have great honor for the Quran and don't let Hadith or the opinion of others overshadow its true meanings. (Seperate topic, hopefully that is one-on-one) Or I can start one in Ahmadiyya DIR. In all honesty I don't intend to entertain some members here who have views that the Quran has portions abrogated.

Bro as I said I am not interested in this sect or that sect. What I am interested in is the Oneness of God. "There is No God but Allah" when you try to understand this in the deepest of ways it applies everywhere. In the argument you presented I see it conflicting with this very idea. You are claiming that you "are" the One truthful sect. The truth is, for you to say that, you need to have a sense of pride about it. Pride is only for Allah. We need to stop looking for leaders who will guide us or bring us closer to Allah, God is closer than we think. We need to open our heart and let him in, but at the same time use logic when believing in what has been said. The Prophet was the Seal, the last of the spiritual leaders, now till the end of time the only guide that we have is the Quran in its original arabic, that is guaranteed to be protected by God. As I said before you do not need place importance on how this scholar interpreted the Quran or How that one did, You will be judged on your individual understanding.

[SIZE=+1][Kahf 18:54] And We have indeed illustrated all kinds of examples for mankind in this Qur’an; and man is the most quarrelsome of all.

[/SIZE]
34.23. Intercession with Him profits not, except for him whom He permits. Until when fear is banished from their (angels') hearts, they (angels) say: "What is it that your Lord has said?" They say: "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great."

34.32. And those who were arrogant will say to those who were deemed weak: "Did we keep you back from guidance after it had come to you? Nay, but you were Mujrimun (polytheists, sinners, criminals, disobedient to Allah, etc.).

34.33. Those who were deemed weak will say to those who were arrogant: "Nay, but it was your plotting by night and day, when you ordered us to disbelieve in Allah and set up rivals to Him!" And each of them (parties) will conceal their own regrets (for disobeying Allah during this worldly life), when they behold the torment. And We shall put iron collars round the necks of those who disbelieved. Are they requited aught except what they used to do?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Bro as I said I am not interested in this sect or that sect. What I am interested in is the Oneness of God. "There is No God but Allah" when you try to understand this in the deepest of ways it applies everywhere. In the argument you presented I see it conflicting with this very idea. You are claiming that you "are" the One truthful sect. The truth is, for you to say that, you need to have a sense of pride about it. Pride is only for Allah. We need to stop looking for leaders who will guide us or bring us closer to Allah, God is closer than we think. We need to open our heart and let him in, but at the same time use logic when believing in what has been said. The Prophet was the Seal, the last of the spiritual leaders, now till the end of time the only guide that we have is the Quran in its original arabic, that is guaranteed to be protected by God. As I said before you do not need place importance on how this scholar interpreted the Quran or How that one did, You will be judged on your individual understanding.

[SIZE=+1][Kahf 18:54] And We have indeed illustrated all kinds of examples for mankind in this Qur’an; and man is the most quarrelsome of all.

[/SIZE]
34.23. Intercession with Him profits not, except for him whom He permits. Until when fear is banished from their (angels') hearts, they (angels) say: "What is it that your Lord has said?" They say: "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great."

34.32. And those who were arrogant will say to those who were deemed weak: "Did we keep you back from guidance after it had come to you? Nay, but you were Mujrimun (polytheists, sinners, criminals, disobedient to Allah, etc.).

34.33. Those who were deemed weak will say to those who were arrogant: "Nay, but it was your plotting by night and day, when you ordered us to disbelieve in Allah and set up rivals to Him!" And each of them (parties) will conceal their own regrets (for disobeying Allah during this worldly life), when they behold the torment. And We shall put iron collars round the necks of those who disbelieved. Are they requited aught except what they used to do?

You said the Quran is guaranteed to be protected by Allah. Do you mean in Physical form or also in interpretation. As majority of Muslims today have abrogated it and also complete lost understanding of it.

Is there not greater arrogance than thinking you have understood the Quran and don't need guidance from anyone else?

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;

[62:4] And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

Muslims need to be reformed, I wonder how that would ever come about.

“A time shall most surely will come upon my people when
Islam shall be left only in name. The Qur’an will be read
by a way of mere ceremony and nobody will act upon it.
Mosques no doubt there will be many, but they no longer
will be the source of light and guidance. The Ulama will
be the worst creatures under the sun; all mischief will
emanate from them and the chastisement of God will come
down upon their heads.” (Kanz-al-Ummal, vol. 6, p. 49)

But apparently these people have the Quran...

 

[FearGod]

You said the Quran is guaranteed to be protected by Allah. Do you mean in Physical form or also in interpretation. As majority of Muslims today have abrogated it and also complete lost understanding of it.

Is there not greater arrogance than thinking you have understood the Quran and don't need guidance from anyone else?

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;

[62:4] And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

Muslims need to be reformed, I wonder how that would ever come about.

“A time shall most surely will come upon my people when
Islam shall be left only in name. The Qur’an will be read
by a way of mere ceremony and nobody will act upon it.
Mosques no doubt there will be many, but they no longer
will be the source of light and guidance. The Ulama will
be the worst creatures under the sun; all mischief will
emanate from them and the chastisement of God will come
down upon their heads.” (Kanz-al-Ummal, vol. 6, p. 49)

But apparently these people have the Quran...

The fact which is as sun shining that Jesus PBUH will fight and will lead all believers toward the final war shortly before the end of this world,not only muslims agree on
this fact but also christians,so there is no doubt about it.

Ahamadia says that Armageddon is the final spiritual battle then in other words finally Islam will be Ahmadia and not Mohamadia,that is really FUNNY.

Islam is ISLAM,itsn't Ahmadia,itsn't Mohamadia,itsn't Bahaiah,it isn't Mohalabia

What do you think Mr. RATIONAL_MIND

 

[Rational_Mind]

The fact which is as sun shining that Jesus PBUH will fight and will lead all believers toward the final war shortly before the end of this world,not only muslims agree on
this fact but also christians,so there is no doubt about it.

Ahamadia says that Armageddon is the final spiritual battle then in other words finally Islam will be Ahmadia and not Mohamadia,that is really FUNNY.

Islam is ISLAM,itsn't Ahmadia,itsn't Mohamadia,itsn't Bahaiah,it isn't Mohalabia

What do you think Mr. RATIONAL_MIND

You may be mocking the community that your generations will join. You may be mocking the community that will make Islam supreme over all other religions. But it doesn't matter to you, because your arguments are too good, you must be right.

btw, we are called Ahmadi as Ahmad was the second name of Holy Prophet (saw). Refer to the Quran.

[62:3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;
[62:4] And among others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.

[61:7] And remember when Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘O children of Israel, surely I am Allah’s Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me. His name will be Ahmad.’ And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, ‘This is clear enchantment.’

Peace be on you.