FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
We don't refer Islam to Mohamed or Ahmad.
Islam is Islam,complete submission and surender to almighty God.
So we aren't Ahmadi,not Mohamadi,not Bahai.
So stick to Ahmadi,may he protect and bless you in the hereafter,Amen
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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Is he really Al Mahdi and the Messiah?
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
We don't refer Islam to Mohamed or Ahmad.
Islam is Islam,complete submission and surender to almighty God.
So we aren't Ahmadi,not Mohamadi,not Bahai.
So stick to Ahmadi,may he protect and bless you in the hereafter,Amen
F0uad
Well-Known Member
So you don't find it strange that you cannot back up your belief with a single reference? (just asking)
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I did not say, or do not believe that I have completely understood the Quran, Inshallah after I finish my Bachelors next year, I am moving to Medina, where with the grace of God I will learn Arabic and with his help understand the message the Quran contains to the best of my abilities as is my responsibility. And may Allah forgive me for coming across as someone who claims to not need guidance. I am trying to question anything and everything that does not make sense to me about the current state of our religion/Ummah. I sincerely apologize for any offense you might have taken.
The point your still missing is, I did not say that due to the times that are changing the interpretation of the Quran will change so much that we will get derailed from the basic truth, the truth that will never change and has never changed, the fact that God is only One, with no beginning or end. The fact of the matter is, The Qur'an makes it clear for even the simplistic minds that their is no denying the ultimate truth, and it states the biggest sin of mankind has been associating others with God (knowing or unknowingly), the sin of the Ancients, it further goes on to state that only God has full knowledge of the Unseen and is fully aware of the hearts condition.
The problem I have with accepting someone else's interpretation is that, it can lead us astray, on the day of judgment if God says that we committed shirk and did not listen to what was said, who will we blame, Mirza Ghulam Ahmed? But that will be no excuse, because like him you have been given a brain that you should have used in understanding Islam. We are only responsible for our own sins, we will not be judged on what others do or believe. What I am trying to say is that why do we worry about who is the right one or the wrong one, this is a form of outer reflection, we need to reflect inwardly, it is what we will be judged on.
The Quran that I believe God has guaranteed to protect is not the physical or the interpretation, the Quran that he will protect is the light of Spiritual Guidance which has no written form but is in the Hearts of the true believers.
My main point being, after Muhammad we don't need anyone to say this is what you should follow or this is what God meant when he said this in the Quran, it is our responsibilty to understand it by ourselves without taking help from anyone other than Allah. My view with Ahmadis conflict on the basis that I believe if your Promised one had truly understood the Oneness of our lord he would not feel the need to concern himself with worldly praise (from his followers) and try to make himself immortal by bringing this new doctrine, at the end of the day peoples perception of the Khalifa is that he is the chosen one from God, so surely he will go to heaven. He is the chosen from among the men by men, and men have no right to pass judgement over what God will decide to be their outcomes.
The whole concept of needing someone in between God and I to bring me closer to him does not sit well. If you look into the history of Islam in the sub-continent you will realize that a similar trend has taken place in Islamic society where the learned have tried to keep the masses ignorant so that they can gain materialistic worldly praise and importance from other human beings, To me it is no different than what the Christian church has done or what the Jewish rabbis have done. Did you know that the scholars in the sub-continent did not want the Qur'an to be translated from arabic? They feared that people would not come to them anymore because they would not need them. In my understanding I don't need anyone to bring me closer to my Creator, I have been given the light that will guide me (In the form of the Quran). All I am responsible is for myself and my belief in the one true creator.
Another way of looking at it is, Imagine Mr X who will be born in 1000 years, is a pious person who with the help and guidance of Allah understands the Quran to the best of his intellect, he is considered very religious and person of God by his peers, If he truly understands Islamic Monotheism will not claim to be "the Chosen one" and say this is what we should do or this is the only truth. Only the messengers who have been sealed were the chosen people of God who could claim for a fact that they had been sent by God to guide us, anyone else other than them who tells you this is a lier.
Again bro please dont take offense, God knows that I have the best of intentions for you and anyone reading this, these are my genuine feelings on the subject not what society has projected on me.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
The point you have raised about uniting the muslims is contradictory. Your claim is further dividing them.
In my opinion when the Muslims (All sects) stop arguing over secondary things like who are chosen men, or learned men, and realize that what is more important is to believe in One God and do good deeds(Morality) with our time on this earth.(rather than concerning ourselves of what others do) We can take the first steps towards unity. In my opinion when muslim society reaches a stage where all that they are concerned with is the Oneness of God and doing good deeds for that lord, we will be able to claim that we are one.
Inshallah there will come a time when all that a Muslim will need to judge a person is by his belief in One God (backed by actions) and his character (Morals of the true Muslim), And forget all these other labels of Sunni or Shia or Ahmadi or Bahai, I believe that we do not choose where we are born but the one who has created us is the same, and his message is the same for every human being.
In my opinion when the Muslims (All sects) stop arguing over secondary things like who are chosen men, or learned men, and realize that what is more important is to believe in One God and do good deeds(Morality) with our time on this earth.(rather than concerning ourselves of what others do) We can take the first steps towards unity. In my opinion when muslim society reaches a stage where all that they are concerned with is the Oneness of God and doing good deeds for that lord, we will be able to claim that we are one.
Inshallah there will come a time when all that a Muslim will need to judge a person is by his belief in One God (backed by actions) and his character (Morals of the true Muslim), And forget all these other labels of Sunni or Shia or Ahmadi or Bahai, I believe that we do not choose where we are born but the one who has created us is the same, and his message is the same for every human being.
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
The Mahdi, will not claim to be the Mahdi, his actions will prove to the true believers that their is not doubt that he is indeed the Mahdi.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Since my belief is backed up primarily by the Quran then by the Hadith I am fully content. Although, I find it strange that your like of your kind of Muslims never try to clear up their contradictions but try to point out contradictions in other people's beliefs. When our arguments destroy your arguments you develop the most evasive techniques.
I also find it strange that you have taken your scholars for God. When a clear verse of the Quran is posted your run, run so fast that you forget everything, only thing you remember is that you must be right, self worship that is what this is.
We are both well aware that you will not change your view regardless of what I say, you don't follow the Quran or the Hadith, you follow your scholars. You have taken them for Gods beside Allah.
Peace be on you.
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Guys fighting gets us no where, That is the Main reason I refuse to associate myself with any sect, First we should be moral people by respecting eachother, than we can try to discuss these issues. How can we expect to have a fruitful discussion and not respect eachother at the same time, it is not possible. Good intentions towards all of Gods creations is the Basis of my Faith.
And Rational Mind bro,
Hope you are typing out a large reply to my post
Salam
And Rational Mind bro,
Hope you are typing out a large reply to my post
Salam
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Guys fighting gets us no where, That is the Main reason I refuse to associate myself with any sect, First we should be moral people by respecting eachother, than we can try to discuss these issues. How can we expect to have a fruitful discussion and not respect eachother at the same time, it is not possible. Good intentions towards all of Gods creations is the Basis of my Faith.
And Rational Mind bro,
Hope you are typing out a large reply to my post
Salam
I have no problems with other sects. I have problem with those people who dwell on falsehood and argue on topics they have not researched. Our friend here belongs to this category. He puts the opinion of Scholars above everything else, hence, it is useless to discuss anything with him. I am sorry if this offends you, F0uad, but at this point it is unbearable to put up with your behavior.
Which post do you want a response to? To me it appears you have made up your mind. I question whether further discussion is of any use. For example, you do not associate with any sect, hence you now have created your own sect. I do not see how I can convince you otherwise. I have made a clear difference between what a community formed by a Prophet of God is. It is different from a sect. This is the difference between the 73rd sect, in Hadith it is called Jamaat.
If you want to continue discussion I think we should first begin at seeing if the Quran says that Prophets can come. But if you have already made up your mind on this like it appears to me, I do not see how I could ever convince you otherwise.
Peace be on you
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I don't see that this thread will ever progress anywhere, it is a tragedy that the amount effort I put in was not put in was not matched by F0uad, Gharib, FearGod or LoverofTruth.
So I will let this thread end here. Any further discussion will only be useful if someone is here to learn, question, and find the Imam Mahdi. On the contrary, it appears, most people here are to debate, refute, and reject the Imam Mahdi of whom they know almost nothing about except lies and false facts, not even one of them has read a single book written by him. Hence, they follow hearsay, just like the people who rejected the Holy Prophet (saw) on hearsay of others. Hazrat Abu Bakr ra, did not depend on hearsay, but check for himself. Others, like to follow the religion of their fathers, accuse others of changing the religion of their fathers, and would answer for themselves on the day of Judgement.
So I will let this thread end here. Any further discussion will only be useful if someone is here to learn, question, and find the Imam Mahdi. On the contrary, it appears, most people here are to debate, refute, and reject the Imam Mahdi of whom they know almost nothing about except lies and false facts, not even one of them has read a single book written by him. Hence, they follow hearsay, just like the people who rejected the Holy Prophet (saw) on hearsay of others. Hazrat Abu Bakr ra, did not depend on hearsay, but check for himself. Others, like to follow the religion of their fathers, accuse others of changing the religion of their fathers, and would answer for themselves on the day of Judgement.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
How do you suppose you will unite Muslims who state the Quran is abrogated. Do you understand the level of division here?? The designation of uniting Muslims can only and only be achieved by a Prophet of God. There is no common ground between Muslim sects, every single one is unwilling to accept the other as Muslims.
On the other hand, Muslims from other sects join Ahmadiyya in large numbers. They all pray the same way, they all agree on issues. Name me a single sect or subsect of Muslims that hold the same view. In one Sunni Mosque there are such diversity of contradictory views that every convert is left confused.
Ahmadiyyat is one and unite, do you suppose I should join a fold of People who cannot figure out how many verses of the Quran are abrogated? Or the group of people who believe the Holy Prophet (saw) was light? Or the people who believe apostates should be killed? Or the people who believe Hadith abrogates verses of the Quran? Or the people who argue over whether Abolution is valid with nail polish? Or those who argue over Salah being invalid unless ankles are showing. Or those who talk trash behind the Imam while he prays?
Saying Ahmadiyyat is dividing is the a baseless statement. Please understand that Ahmadiyyat is not any sect. If you have visited an Ahmadi Mosque at any Salah time or during an event you would realize the large difference.
Importance of Khilafat:
Khilafat is only promised to those who believe and do good works. It cannot be established by mankind. It is appointed by God. Hence, this difference between Ahmadiyyat and any other sect that cannot be disputed. This is the greatest form of Unity. This is how people unite on Tauheed. We are truly united in belief in One God, we don't dispute among ourselves, we have a religion that has been established by God.
Only Prophets of God are sent to establish Tauheed. This is what is taught in the Holy Quran. So you are aware that Muslims of today have left the concept of Tauheed, you should also recognize that in such a state God sends people to establish his religion.
Please note that Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity still exist today. If you study how Allah (swt) established religion in the past you will realize to bring Islam back to life only a Prophet of God can do this. The basis of your view is not from the Quran, such has never been the way of God. I know you may want it to be, but please realize that the Quran does not state such.
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Bro is this the 24th surah of the noble Quran that you have qouted from? Which/Whose translation are you using? Either my eyes aint right or there is something seriously wrong here.
Surat An-Nur
Can someone please clarify if im confused.???
24.56
Sahih International
And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger - that you may receive mercy.
And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger - that you may receive mercy.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
I think you meant verse 55
[SIZE=+1][Noor 24:55] Allah has promised those among you who believe and do good deeds, that He will certainly give them the Caliphate in the earth the way He gave to those before them; and that He will certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and will turn their prior fear into peace; they must worship Me and not ascribe anything as a partner to Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this – it is they who are the disobedient.
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[SIZE=+1][Noor 24:55] Allah has promised those among you who believe and do good deeds, that He will certainly give them the Caliphate in the earth the way He gave to those before them; and that He will certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and will turn their prior fear into peace; they must worship Me and not ascribe anything as a partner to Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this – it is they who are the disobedient.
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Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Bro what I can get from this verse is that, there will always be righteous guided men, nowhere does it explicilty say in the Quran that there will be another prophet.
We should use logic to interperate the Quran, a part of using that logic would be looking at the context of the time of revelation.
Muhammad is the last of the Messengers, As stated in the Quran and Prophesised in the Jewish and Christian Books.
Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel. Surah 7.157
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him". Deuteronomy 18.18
"Behold I have put my words in your mouth".
Jeremiah 1.9
"For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me".
John 12.49-50
"I have given them the words which thou gavest me".
John 17.8
When I logically look at these prophesies of the People of the Book, It points at Mohammad.
When I look at the ayat you wrongly qouted from (maybe a typo, if not please tell me what version it was I wanna have a read), It in no way sense or form, points at the coming of another prophet. Please explain to me the logical basis of your argument? Why do you think Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was or is this Prophet, what led you to jump to that conclusion? Also I am not sure about the whole history of this sect, Can you clarify whether he claimed to be Prophet of God, or people around him chose him? If so who were these people, Please give me a family name or something I want to learn about them. Thanks and God Bless
We should use logic to interperate the Quran, a part of using that logic would be looking at the context of the time of revelation.
Muhammad is the last of the Messengers, As stated in the Quran and Prophesised in the Jewish and Christian Books.
Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) - in the Law and the Gospel. Surah 7.157
"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him". Deuteronomy 18.18
"Behold I have put my words in your mouth".
Jeremiah 1.9
"For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me".
John 12.49-50
"I have given them the words which thou gavest me".
John 17.8
When I logically look at these prophesies of the People of the Book, It points at Mohammad.
When I look at the ayat you wrongly qouted from (maybe a typo, if not please tell me what version it was I wanna have a read), It in no way sense or form, points at the coming of another prophet. Please explain to me the logical basis of your argument? Why do you think Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was or is this Prophet, what led you to jump to that conclusion? Also I am not sure about the whole history of this sect, Can you clarify whether he claimed to be Prophet of God, or people around him chose him? If so who were these people, Please give me a family name or something I want to learn about them. Thanks and God Bless
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Out of respect for the Holy Quran we number bismillah. As Bismillah is a verse of each Surah it precedes.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
It was speaking on Khilafat. Reference: A Passage from the Quran on Khilafat
Some reading:
Finality of Prophet hood | Hadhrat Muhammad (PUBH) the Last Prophet - Al Islam Online
The Promised Messiah
Peace be on you
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Bro you are giving me something to read, I am not asking you to read anything, just to use your logic and realize the finality of the word, do you think that if there was to be another Prophet? Not one authentic hadith would have survived that mentioned him explicitly, Now I know there is alot of confusion nowadays regarding hadith, but I am a believer of where there is a smoke there is usually a fire, You notice how the Old texts of the Jews and Christians even though they have been distorted over time, point the true believer to Mohammad. In your case I don't even see a hint of their being a fire behind this mist, not smoke. Even Jesus will not be a new Prophet rather a returning prophet did not die but was raised to the heavens when the Jews prosecuted him,so Mohammad is still the Seal and his word is the Final book and Law of Mankind.
There is only a limit till which I can try to convince you to think individually, you place importance of getting new interpretation for this time, why do you not interperate yourself, so atleast on the day of judgement will be able to say, Dear Allah these were solely my ideas and purposes, I see the same emotional attachment as with any other sect, not with God but with the Human leader.
There is only a limit till which I can try to convince you to think individually, you place importance of getting new interpretation for this time, why do you not interperate yourself, so atleast on the day of judgement will be able to say, Dear Allah these were solely my ideas and purposes, I see the same emotional attachment as with any other sect, not with God but with the Human leader.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
You will win me over if you can produce a verses of the Quran that says Jesus (as) was 1. bodily ascended, 2. is still alive, 3. ascended to heaven.
I have read you views, I know everything about mainstream beliefs regarding finality of Prophethood and return of Jesus (as). On the other end you do not know anything about my beliefs. So instead of me being confident and saying to think individually, you are telling me to think individually. Unfortunately you have not given my views a fair chance. If you want to be open minded and to think individually be willing to read views that are different from yours.
Moreover, the mainstream claim is more unrealistic, that a man ascended bodily to heaven, something that never happened before. Moreover, a Jewish Prophet will come to lead Muslims. (Please refer to few posts back, I posted a just a few of the contradictions). Hence, those people need to have a greater responsibility to think individually and prove such statements. The same way Christians claim God had a son, it is an absurd claim, it is their job to prove it. A response stating, you deny the power of God, is not honest. We should not believe in things simply because God can do them.
Try to Understand, it is also your responsibility to think independently. Not just of mine. I have studied mainstream beliefs, I find the Quran contradicts them.
Iqra, Peace be upon you
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Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I did not accuse of starting the 73rd sect. But when you state you are not of any sect your are in itself another sect. Once you cut a cake it gets split. So once you say I am not part of this you have created a division. Hence you are part of your own sect.
The 73rd sect is Islam Ahmadiyyat, in my opinion. The one that resembles the 73rd sect created when Jesus (as) came to the Jews. This 73rd sect of his later got labelled as Christianity but at its source was the True Jewish sect that pretty much eradicated the Jewish sects in the success that it acquired.
In this sense, we also believe that Ahmadiyyat will take over the World as did Christanity. It will be through Ahmadiyyat that sects in Islam would end and Islam would be supreme over the world.
Monotheist 101
Well-Known Member
Do you think before the time of Jesus there was anyone who you could say was born without a father? Was your Mirza Ghulam born without a father?. Bro I am not disagreeing with mainstream Islam on many valid points, I am disagreeing with individual attachment to our forefathers without reason and logic.
Do you know why the Story of Adam and Jesus are so relevant to Gods miracles?
Because God created both of them from nothing.
If He wishes anything to exist, He merely commands it: Be, and it is.
[Surah Yaa Seen (36):82]
Indeed, Allah (God) is able to do all things.
[Surah Baqarah (2):20]
This belief is a part of faith and no Faith can be complete without it
May Allah Guide us All on the Right Path.
Salam and God Bless
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Your principle of belief that Jesus (as) ascended to Heaven is the same principle upon which Christians made Jesus (as) God. It is against Tauheed to believe a man would ascend to Heaven bodily and escape death. Since you are so much for monotheism why don't you investigate yourself? Why do you refuse to research and read? Do you fear the truth?
The verse you quoted is often used by Christians to show that since God can do anything he can also, God forbid, have a child. You are asking me to use my mind, please explain you capability of doing something concludes that it happened. Your beliefs are unchecked, please don't be scared to read. You may find yourself to get closer to Tauheed.
Yes the Promised Messiah (as) claimed Prophethood.
I would kindly refuse to discuss the topic further until you can reference it from the Quran. Unless you do so I have simply believe that you simply follow the Religion of your Forefathers, you have never done a fact check yourself.
Peace be upon you.