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Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Is he really Al Mahdi and the Messiah?

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
I think I might have gone overboard, I shouldn't have disrespected your beliefs, but don't you see how this claim defies logic? If one can claim it, what is stopping the next? Again you should also look into the context of 1850's India, He was born in the Sikh Empire under Maharaja Ranjit Singh where the means of communication were not advanced and the majority of the people remained illiterate. Bro the power of knowledge in those conditions is immense. Why do you think the christian church burnt science books? Why do you think Indian scholars didn't want the Quran translated for general population? Even though Prophet Muhammad brought his message to the pagan Arabs, the people with knowledge realized that their is no denying the truth in them(Jews of Arabia), In Mirza Ghulam Ahmads case only the people around him seem to believe his message, why is it that non of the learned scholars support his claim?
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I think I might have gone overboard, I shouldn't have disrespected your beliefs, but don't you see how this claim defies logic? If one can claim it, what is stopping the next? Again you should also look into the context of 1850's India, He was born in the Sikh Empire under Maharaja Ranjit Singh where the means of communication were not advanced and the majority of the people remained illiterate. Bro the power of knowledge in those conditions is immense. Why do you think the christian church burnt science books? Why do you think Indian scholars didn't want the Quran translated for general population? Even though Prophet Muhammad brought his message to the pagan Arabs, the people with knowledge realized that their is no denying the truth in them(Jews of Arabia), In Mirza Ghulam Ahmads case only the people around him seem to believe his message, why is it that non of the learned scholars support his claim?

Lets first begin with if Quran says Prophets can come. If they cannot it is not relevant what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) claimed. make sense?

We need to first establish that a position is even available to make a claim for, then we can begin to see if his claim was true. We both know the Muslim World is in turmoil today, if anyone has made a claim in this age it is indeed very important. But we should first evaluate if the Quran even accepts that a Prophet can come after the Holy Prophet (saw).
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
We both know the Muslim World is in turmoil today

Where we differ on is that I hold the opinion change will come from inside our Hearts, when we change our outlook and understand that morality towards believers and non believers alike is most important. Then we can say we are united as One, through our belief in the Oneness of God.

Your opinion of change or reform is an external one, in the form of A messiah that will guide us, Another Man that you need to bring you close to your creator. And even after that Messiah has come and passed, non of our issues have been resolved...

My faith is based on the finality of Muhammad's message and prophet hood, that is why I believe after he has passed the only guidance we truly need is the Quran and God's help. That being said I don't close the door on good regardless of source, honestly I feel if I associate myself with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad I will not come closer to God but will infact be moving farther away. Allah has blessed me with experiences in this life which have shaped my opinions, and everything I said about spiritualists and their doctrines I believe with every inch of my Heart, brother I hope you look at religion and the state of Mankind from more angles maybe you will see where I am coming from. Where do you think this deviation in religions come from? The only source is the cursed one(Iblees) who has been able to influence and manipulate every religion that God sent for us except Islam, I have never said everything that mainstream Islam teaches is wrong, What I have said is that we are concentrating on the wrong things by looking at what others do, I believe Allah will protect the Majority of the Muslims and keep them on the right path till the end of time and their will always be Good leaders(not divinely guided) Khalifah's among our Ummah, but they shouldn't come with completely new doctrines or people shouldn't mourn their deaths for thousands of years. You should look into how exactly the great deceiver has deceived us...
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Where we differ on is that I hold the opinion change will come from inside our Hearts, when we change our outlook and understand that morality towards believers and non believers alike is most important. Then we can say we are united as One, through our belief in the Oneness of God.

Your opinion of change or reform is an external one, in the form of A messiah that will guide us, Another Man that you need to bring you close to your creator. And even after that Messiah has come and passed, non of our issues have been resolved...

My faith is based on the finality of Muhammad's message and prophet hood, that is why I believe after he has passed the only guidance we truly need is the Quran and God's help. That being said I don't close the door on good regardless of source, honestly I feel if I associate myself with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad I will not come closer to God but will infact be moving farther away. Allah has blessed me with experiences in this life which have shaped my opinions, and everything I said about spiritualists and their doctrines I believe with every inch of my Heart, brother I hope you look at religion and the state of Mankind from more angles maybe you will see where I am coming from. Where do you think this deviation in religions come from? The only source is the cursed one(Iblees) who has been able to influence and manipulate every religion that God sent for us except Islam, I have never said everything that mainstream Islam teaches is wrong, What I have said is that we are concentrating on the wrong things by looking at what others do, I believe Allah will protect the Majority of the Muslims and keep them on the right path till the end of time and their will always be Good leaders(not divinely guided) Khalifah's among our Ummah, but they shouldn't come with completely new doctrines or people shouldn't mourn their deaths for thousands of years. You should look into how exactly the great deceiver has deceived us...

Everytime I invite you to turn to the Holy Quran you turn elsewhere. What can I say, what can I do. My opinion is based on the teachings of the Holy Quran.

On a side note, there is not a single instance where mankind reformed themselves without help from God. There is a reason messengers are sent. The Quran is a book, it was accompanied by a Prophet for good reason. If the Quran alone was sufficient the the state of the world wouldn't be like it is today.

Also note, the period you are observing is the period when Muslims have rejected their Messiah. Hence, they are punished. Allah (swt) has never enforced religion upon mankind, hence, their rejection is their own doing. Also note, never has a Prophet of God come who was accepted in masses. How can one ask to achieve in a couple of years that which the Holy Prophet (saw) did not achieve in his lifetime (Islam Dominating the World).

Surely Islam will spread. But as always, people will be punished for the rejection of a Messenger.

[43:24] And thus has it always been that We never sent any Warner before thee to any township but the evil leaders thereof said: ‘We found our fathers following a certain course, and we are following in their footsteps.

[43:25] Their Warner said: ‘What! even though I bring you a better guidance than that which you found your fathers following?’ They said: ‘Certainly we disbelieve in that which you are sent with.’

[43:26] So We punished them. Behold then what was the end of those who rejected the Prophets!

[34:46] And those who were before them also rejected the truth — and these have not attained even to a tenth of that which We gave them, but they treated My Messengers as liars. So how terrible was the change I brought about!

[35:43] And they swore by Allah their strongest oaths, that if a Warner came to them, they would follow guidance better than any other people. But when a Warner did come to them, it only increased them in aversion,

[35:44] Out of arrogance in the earth and evil plotting. But the evil plot encompasses none but the authors thereof. Do they then look for anything but God’s way of dealing with the peoples of old? But thou wilt never find any change in the way of Allah; nor wilt thou ever find any alteration in the way of Allah.


[38:5] And they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves; and the disbelievers say, ‘This is a magician, a great liar.

[38:71] ‘But this that it has been revealed to me, that I am a plain Warner.’

[41:5] A bringer of glad tidings and a warner. But most of them turn away and they hear not.

You see from my perspective what is happening today is exactly what has happened after the coming of every Prophet. To believe that Allah (swt) will change his was and reform all of mankind without a Prophet is contradictory. The Quran says if Allah (swt) wanted to make all of mankind one people he would, but this is not the way of Allah. Never has a Prophet of God come and was accepted by the masses.

I hope you see that from the Quranic perspective it is only natural. Over 500k people join the fold of Ahmadiyyat every year, and many of them are very learned men. A lot of Islamic Scholars joined Ahmadiyyat, in fact, the good Scholars have left non-Ahmadi Muslims, which explains further their state. Most scholars of Non-Ahmadi who have not joined Ahmadiyyat tend to be very astray, I think you can note this for yourself that there are few reputable Imam's today.
 
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Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
On a side note, there is not a single instance where mankind reformed themselves without help from God. There is a reason messengers are sent. The Quran is a book, it was accompanied by a Prophet for good reason. If the Quran alone was sufficient the the state of the world wouldn't be like it is today.
Why do you think the Quran is different from any other book that was previously revealed? God has vowed to protect it The other religions of the past that you mentioned did not have this guarantee.Bro if you look at why older religions were corrupted, you will see that it all started in the form of innovations (change one small thing, than another and on and on until we get derailed from the truth, the Oneness of Allah) , I believe that is why you find mainstream Islam so strict in many matters, they are not wrong in there reasons, they want to protect the religion from innovations, I think they should reevaluate a few things that are more suited to our times, this can be done without innovation.

God has vowed to protect it. When God has given us that promise, we logically cannot have another messenger. It all adds up when you look at the attributes of Allah.
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
To believe that Allah (swt) will change his was and reform all of mankind without a Prophet is contradictory. The Quran says if Allah (swt) wanted to make all of mankind one people he would, but this is not the way of Allah. Never has a Prophet of God come and was accepted by the masses.


"We have without doubt, sent down the message and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption.)" (15:9)

when put against this verse of the Quran your claim is absurd!! I mean the difference between the Quran and other Books, The difference between Islam and Other religions, The difference between Mohammad and Other Messengers, is that these are Gods last communication to mankind. Please I think you are thinking with your heart and not your head.
You have not answered my previous question How did you come to Ahmadiyat, Birth? If not please elaborate your story I am genuinely interested..



Jesus is not going to come and solve the problems of the Muslims, He has unfinished business with the Jews and the Christians, He will not bring anything new for us Muslims.
 
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Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
Angels are not visible to the physical eye. Yet, according to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, they do sometimes appear to man in one form or another. This appearance, however, is not physical but a spiritual manifestation.[5]

Ahmadiyya regards angels as celestial beings who have their own entity as persons. The major role they play is the transmission of messages from God to human beings.

Do you guys believe Angels brought your promised one messages? Which Angel visited him did he ever name Him?
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
Bro I have read alot about your Promised one today, Please read this excerpt from One of your Ahmadiya brothers.

It started with a ‘throw away’ comment, not likely to offend those present.
“Zakat doesn’t matter.”
This was said amongst scores of Ahmadi members at a meeting discussing all matters to do with finance. It was innocuous for two reasons.

  1. The comment was quickly rebuked by another attendee of the meeting who said that Zakat did matter; and
  2. Zakat, on a practical level, didn’t matter because it is rarely discussed beyond being a topic or sub-topic of a speech at Ijtemas.
But the dye had been cast and the comment had really hit home with me. I started to wonder whether Zakah really did matter to the ordinary Ahmadi.
It is certainly recognised as a pillar of Islam. There is no denying that. But on a day-to-day basis Zakah is on the very periphery of the Ahmadiyya financial objectives.
My Journey from Ahmadiyyat to Islam | Ahmadiyya
Interesting Read. Even more interesting discussion in the replies.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
You are switching topics so fast it is hard to keep up. I don't have so much time. Let me guide you to a couple of sources:

thecult.info is a very very misleading source. Proof is that they have been caught on numerous occasions to manipulate quotations, blatantly lie, and fabricate people who left Ahmadiyyat but never exist. Lately they say the nephew of the Khalifa left, but there is no such nephew with such a name. If you want responses to the allegation it raises they are here:
Jihad of the Pen | An official AMYA UK website
Cult Girl | Ahmadiyya

Secondly Quran is the last law book to mankind. Allah (swt) protects it in two forms, in physical text, and interpretation.

For interpretation Mujjadids are sent. So to believe that having the Quran without guidance is sufficient means that there was no need to sent Holy Prophet (saw). Just sending a physical book down would have been sufficient.

You keep raising new allegations, all of which are faulty on many counts. I would advise you to sort out one. Jumping topics is a sign that you do not have answer. Why don't you sort out one at a time.

Why are you testing his claim if you are not even willing to believe Prophets can come. I think that is a question of your sincerity. Start with the first topic, can Prophets even come today. Let see what the Quran says, not what you say or I say.

Lets turn to the QURAN.
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
I think there is no point in discussing this further, you say that I have made up my mind, Same goes for you, you have made up your mind too, all I'm asking is open your mind and accept the messed up world that we live in. Dont take anyone that claims to be divinely inspired to be a true leader, what you consider divine is the work of Satan.

"The wisest of the pagan world, and their greatest philossphors, held Theurgic Magic in high esteem. Theurgy was, according to them, a divine art which served only to advance the mind of man to the highest perfection, and they who by means of this magic had the happiness to arrive at what they called Autopsia or Intuition, a state where they enjoyed intmate intercourse, with the gods, believed themselves invested with all their power." --MAYO

"It was anciently believed in all nations that there were means whereby men and women might come to have some acquaintance and communication with God" --An Introduction to Theosophy


"In 1610 Böhme experienced another inner vision in which he further understood the unity of the cosmos and that he had received a special vocation from God." Jakob Bohme regarded as king of Mystics, Look him up.

His claims and your Promised Ones claims are one and the same in my eyes.


Bro what you don't understand is that these innovations in religion stem from the same tree. You keep saying look to the Qur'an, non of the verses you have quoted points to Ghulam Ahmad, when looked at from a neutral point of view, unlike you I have not been fed these emotions and don't view them through rose-colored glasses. Anyways I think this discussion wont bear any fruit for either of us, I would ask you to broaden you scope and read stuff from other sources than judge the state of our religion.
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I think there is no point in discussing this further, you say that I have made up my mind, Same goes for you, you have made up your mind too, all I'm asking is open your mind and accept the messed up world that we live in. Dont take anyone that claims to be divinely inspired to be a true leader, what you consider divine is the work of Satan.

"The wisest of the pagan world, and their greatest philossphors, held Theurgic Magic in high esteem. Theurgy was, according to them, a divine art which served only to advance the mind of man to the highest perfection, and they who by means of this magic had the happiness to arrive at what they called Autopsia or Intuition, a state where they enjoyed intmate intercourse, with the gods, believed themselves invested with all their power." --MAYO

"It was anciently believed in all nations that there were means whereby men and women might come to have some acquaintance and communication with God" --An Introduction to Theosophy


"In 1610 Böhme experienced another inner vision in which he further understood the unity of the cosmos and that he had received a special vocation from God." Jakob Bohme regarded as king of Mystics, Look him up.

His claims and your Promised Ones claims are one and the same in my eyes.


Bro what you don't understand is that these innovations in religion stem from the same tree. You keep saying look to the Qur'an, non of the verses you have quoted points to Ghulam Ahmad, when looked at from a neutral point of view, unlike you I have not been fed these emotions and don't view them through rose-colored glasses. Anyways I think this discussion wont bear any fruit for either of us, I would ask you to broaden you scope and read stuff from other sources than judge the state of our religion.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/97-faulty-comparison

Interestingly you never managed to respond to my questions or responses. Neither did you show any scholarship. Just copy pasting age old accusations to try and convince me to leave something that you have yet to prove is not a community supported by Allah (swt). You tried to comment on a topic you know literally, with all due respect, almost nothing about.

Moreover, you proceeded to try and make false comparisons, which is the most interesting part. Unfortunately, these attempts brought you to reject Islam at the heart, as by the standards set above you should not have accepted the Holy Prophet (saw) as the same accusations put on his servant are equally valid on him.

So I would also caution you to open your mind and not simply follow the stream. You have associated very closely with not leaders, but the flow, the flow that you ancestors followed.

Unfortunately, Kuffar E Mecca made similar accusations to the Holy Prophet(saw) as they followed the stream. I will give you the same responses that the Quran gave as your accusations are exactly the same.

[68:2] By the inkstand and by the pen and by that which they write,
[68:3] Thou art not, by the grace of thy Lord, a madman.
[68:4] And for thee, most surely, there is an unending reward.
[68:5] And thou dost surely possess high moral excellences.
[68:6] And thou wilt soon see and they too will see.
[68:7] Which of you is afflicted with madness.

Quran says they make a claim, but a mad man cannot possess the qualities a Holy Prophet (saw) possessed. If you were alive 1400yrs back, unfortunately, you would have employed the same technique to reject the Holy Prophet (saw).

And this is where our discussion ends.

Peace be Upon You. May Allah (swt) guide us both to the Truth.
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
I think Mirza Ghulam Ahmad confused Jesus of Nazareth for Apollonius of Tyana who travelled to India around the same time.

And if he is certain that he is Jesus and he visited india than the Jesus Christ he is talking about is not Hazrat Isa but Master Jesus (Ancient Master Teachings) who is regarded as the Master of the Sixth Ray(Most Probably and Iffrit) . Many Mystics have met this entity their are alot of detailed works on him.

According to the Ascended Master Teachings, to prepare for his ministry, Jesus first studied at the Brotherhood of Luxor (a mystery school in Egypt), and then went to India to study under the Great Divine Director, Maitreya, and Lord Himalaya, the Manu of the Fourth Root Race (Atlantean)


[68:2] By the inkstand and by the pen and by that which they write,
[68:3] Thou art not, by the grace of thy Lord, a madman.
[68:4] And for thee, most surely, there is an unending reward.
[68:5] And thou dost surely possess high moral excellences.
[68:6] And thou wilt soon see and they too will see.
[68:7] Which of you is afflicted with madness
Bro how can you take the word that was revealed to Mohammad and apply it to Ghulam Ahmad?, I am not following any stream as you claim, I have come across alot of teachers who taught the same dreamy lessons Ghulam Ahmad did, but no one dared to use the Holy Quran to support their nonsense.

You have compared me with Kuffar E Mecca that is something I am not too hurt about, but you should consider how you have disrespected the Holy Prophet by comparing him to Ghulam Ahmad (In my opinion another Mystic, with the means and tools to exercise influence). You have also made the assumption that I would have rejected the Prophet 1400 years ago. The difference between our Holy Prophet and this Imposter is that Mohammad had the miracle of the Quran while Ghulam Ahmad only had the miracle of being cunning and educated amidst a handful of illiterate farmers. The Prophet never wished death on anyone or challenged the Jews of Arabia to Prayer Duels, how dare you compare a filthy person( I have read up on his the Saintly circumstances of his death) who associates and proudly challenges people to Prayer Duels to our Prophet and regard this person as a bearer of wisdom and knowledge?

Brother I have looked into his claims and I can be 100% certain he is no different than many other who use claims of divinity, they are mistaken this is not the divine which they communicate to but Satan.

Too each his own, Best of luck and may you realize the mistake you make by ascending an ordinary man to prophethoood.

This is how the discussion ends. :)

Peace on You.
 
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F0uad

Well-Known Member
Thank you for trying.

I have a question why did you use Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411? When i already told you its not valid. Moreover the The translation is inaccurate and even misleading. The hadith uses the words "Imaaman Mahdiyyan." It is in the indefinite case, so a more correct translation would have been, "a rightly guided Imam."

This hadeeth was narrated by Ibn Maajah in his Sunan (4039).
Almost all the muhadditheen (hadeeth scholars) are agreed that this hadeeth is da’eef (weak)”

It was classed as da’eef by al-Bayhaqi, al-Haakim, Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah in Manhaaj al-Sunnah (8/256), and Ibn al-Qayyim in al-Manaar al-Muneef (p. 148).
Al-Dhahabi said in Meezaan al-I’tidal (3/535): it is a munkar report.
Al-Qaari said in Mirqaat al-Mafaateeh (10/183): it is da’eef according to the consensus of the muhadditheen.
It was mentioned by al-Shawkaani in al-Qawaa’id al-Majmoo’ah, 127. He said: al-San’aani said: (it is) mawdoo’ (fabricated).
Al-Albaani said in Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth al-Da’eefah (77): It is munkar.
Even if this hadeeth were saheeh – but it is not saheeh – the meaning would be that there is no one who perfectly guided (mahdi) or protected from sin and error except ‘Eesa ibn Maryam. This was stated by al-Qurtubi, Ibn al-Qayyim and Ibn Katheer.
This does not contradict the fact that the Mahdi will emerge at the end of time and that he will join forces with ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him), and ‘Eesa will pray behind him in congregation.

Like i said you are desperate and you keep using this hadith that has no value, i would like to hear your reply on the notion why there are so many Authentic Hadiths that clearly states that the Mahdi and Messiah are two different distinct persons? Are you suggesting that the mass-transmissions are just fabrications and lies?
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I have a question why did you use Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 2, p. 411? When i already told you its not valid. Moreover the The translation is inaccurate and even misleading. The hadith uses the words "Imaaman Mahdiyyan." It is in the indefinite case, so a more correct translation would have been, "a rightly guided Imam."

This hadeeth was narrated by Ibn Maajah in his Sunan (4039).
Almost all the muhadditheen (hadeeth scholars) are agreed that this hadeeth is da’eef (weak)”

It was classed as da’eef by al-Bayhaqi, al-Haakim, Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah in Manhaaj al-Sunnah (8/256), and Ibn al-Qayyim in al-Manaar al-Muneef (p. 148).
Al-Dhahabi said in Meezaan al-I’tidal (3/535): it is a munkar report.
Al-Qaari said in Mirqaat al-Mafaateeh (10/183): it is da’eef according to the consensus of the muhadditheen.
It was mentioned by al-Shawkaani in al-Qawaa’id al-Majmoo’ah, 127. He said: al-San’aani said: (it is) mawdoo’ (fabricated).
Al-Albaani said in Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth al-Da’eefah (77): It is munkar.
Even if this hadeeth were saheeh – but it is not saheeh – the meaning would be that there is no one who perfectly guided (mahdi) or protected from sin and error except ‘Eesa ibn Maryam. This was stated by al-Qurtubi, Ibn al-Qayyim and Ibn Katheer.
This does not contradict the fact that the Mahdi will emerge at the end of time and that he will join forces with ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him), and ‘Eesa will pray behind him in congregation.

Like i said you are desperate and you keep using this hadith that has no value, i would like to hear your reply on the notion why there are so many Authentic Hadiths that clearly states that the Mahdi and Messiah are two different distinct persons? Are you suggesting that the mass-transmissions are just fabrications and lies?

1. I already answered these questions. I moreover proved not by opinion of others but by analysis that the Hadith on Imam Mahdi are highly highly unreliable.

Below is quote that clearly mentions the opinion accepted by Non-Ahmadi Muslims.

More than one hundred Hadiths were narrated about Al-Mahdi. Those Hadiths ranged between being fabricated, weak, sound, and authentic; the authentic ones are very few.

Of such Hadiths are the following:...
from: OnIslam.net

Hence, using a non-Ahmadi source I have now shown you that Hadith relating to Imam Mahdi are highly highly unreliable. Very very few are authentic.

Hence, your view that the Hadith in Ibn Majah is based on the view of other rather than any careful analysis on your part. This goes to show that some earlier scholars have faltered in declaring this Hadith unauthentic. Moreover, clearly the Hadith in Sahih Muslim and Bukhari are concluding to the exact same statement "La Mahdi Illa Isa". Hence, I have no logical reason to follow the view of those whom we now know based on research, were unfortunately wrong. They are no Gods neither Prophets of God, so they can be wrong. As I have already proven, they were unfortunately wrong, they did not have the open access to Hadith we do in this age due to the convenience of the printing press.

Answer the following:

Will you still deny that the two biggest Muhadditheen avoided the term "Imam Mahdi" for no apparent reason?

Will you ever be able to address the contradictions in the Hadith that state a non-Prophet will be an Imam while a Prophet will read prayers behind him?

Will you ever be able to answer any of the other questions anytime soon?

Honestly, your wasting my time. You just here to enforce your contradictory view on me. From you attitude in the thread, the evasive techniques, it seems you not even slightly interested in what I have to share. You are interested in trying to convince me to follow the views of those who you feel are correct while you know not why.

Feels like I am being persuaded by a mainstream Christian. You do not follow reason but rather the opinion of Saints, I follow the opinion of Saints only if it makes sense. I apologize we have no common ground as you are uncomfortable turning to the Quran, you have not even tried to address the hadith+verse proof in Surah Jummah.
 
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F0uad

Well-Known Member
1. I already answered these questions. I moreover proved not by opinion of others but by analysis that the Hadith on Imam Mahdi are highly highly unreliable.

Below is quote that clearly mentions the opinion accepted by Non-Ahmadi Muslims.



Hence, using a non-Ahmadi source I have now shown you that Hadith relating to Imam Mahdi are highly highly unreliable. Very very few are authentic.

Hence, your view that the Hadith in Ibn Majah is based on the view of other rather than any careful analysis on your part. This goes to show that some earlier scholars have faltered in declaring this Hadith unauthentic. Moreover, clearly the Hadith in Sahih Muslim and Bukhari are concluding to the exact same statement "La Mahdi Illa Isa". Hence, I have no logical reason to follow the view of those whom we now know based on research, were unfortunately wrong. They are no Gods neither Prophets of God, so they can be wrong. As I have already proven, they were unfortunately wrong, they did not have the open access to Hadith we do in this age due to the convenience of the printing press.

Answer the following:

Will you still deny that the two biggest Muhadditheen avoided the term "Imam Mahdi" for no apparent reason?

Will you ever be able to address the contradictions in the Hadith that state a non-Prophet will be an Imam while a Prophet will read prayers behind him?

Will you ever be able to answer any of the other questions anytime soon?

Honestly, your wasting my time. You just here to enforce your contradictory view on me. From you attitude in the thread, the evasive techniques, it seems you not even slightly interested in what I have to share. You are interested in trying to convince me to follow the views of those who you feel are correct while you know not why.

Feels like I am being persuaded by a mainstream Christian. You do not follow reason but rather the opinion of Saints, I follow the opinion of Saints only if it makes sense. I apologize we have no common ground as you are uncomfortable turning to the Quran, you have not even tried to address the hadith+verse proof in Surah Jummah.
Your being ignorant i asked for one specific reference that supports your claim, why do you answer with questions?
This whole thread i have been asking for One single reference.. You still have given me ZERO.
Why should i answer your questions when you still haven´t answered mine?
Like i said i am willing to explain everything untill you give me one reference.
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Your being ignorant i asked for one specific reference that supports your claim, why do you answer with questions?
This whole thread i have been asking for One single reference.. You still have given me ZERO.
Why should i answer your questions when you still haven´t answered mine?
Like i said i am willing to explain everything untill you give me one reference.

I already gave you the following references:
1. Imam Bukhari Hadith stating Jesus (as) is Imam from Muslims.
2. Isa(as) called Imam Mahdiyan.
3. Hadith of Ibn Majah
4. Quran which of course you completely ignored.

I know it is uncomfortable to open your mind. Maybe if you stop denying all the references based on your bias then got may grant you sight.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
F0uad I am sorry but this discussion cannot continue. If you don't know why, before making accusations, sit down and read through the thread and make notes. Either you are not interested in reading my posts, or you are uncomfortable keeping an open mind, or it may be that God has not granted you Hidaya.

I have done my limit as a human being. I cannot help you further if you fail to see factual information. At this point it is a waste of time. I have spent too much time learning about Sunni views and have to put up with someone who wants to refute mine while admitting to not have spent any time researching.

You unfortunately never came in this thread out of interest. But confident that having one Imam is a false concept. This may be why you may not be able to see past the natural internal bias.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I already gave you the following references:
1. Imam Bukhari Hadith stating Jesus (as) is Imam from Muslims.
2. Isa(as) called Imam Mahdiyan.
3. Hadith of Ibn Majah
4. Quran which of course you completely ignored.
1. The Hadith in Bukhari doesn't say that Jesus(pbuh) is the Mahdi and Imam nor does it say that Jesus(pbuh) is the Imam it says we will have a Imam among yourself clearly making the distinction between the two.

2. Where? And that does the term Imam Mahdiyan mean? You know Arabic right?

3. Again this is a fabricated Hadith are you really this dishonest?

4. The Quran? Where in the Quran is The Mahdi ever mentioned?

I know it is uncomfortable to open your mind. Maybe if you stop denying all the references based on your bias then got may grant you sight.
I really "Opened" my mind and read it without a bias but i still cant see a specific mentioning of them being the same person...
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
F0uad I am sorry but this discussion cannot continue. If you don't know why, before making accusations, sit down and read through the thread and make notes. Either you are not interested in reading my posts, or you are uncomfortable keeping an open mind, or it may be that God has not granted you Hidaya.

I have done my limit as a human being. I cannot help you further if you fail to see factual information. At this point it is a waste of time. I have spent too much time learning about Sunni views and have to put up with someone who wants to refute mine while admitting to not have spent any time researching.

You unfortunately never came in this thread out of interest. But confident that having one Imam is a false concept. This may be why you may not be able to see past the natural internal bias.
Thats not true at all if that was the case i would never have debated you Bukhari and all the other things. I just want a single reference that specifically says they are the same person or at-least something that gives us that idea.
Because the only thing you have been doing here is invent a theory that has no scriptural evidence to back it up.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Thats not true at all if that was the case i would never have debated you Bukhari and all the other things. I just want a single reference that specifically says they are the same person or at-least something that gives us that idea.
Because the only thing you have been doing here is invent a theory that has no scriptural evidence to back it up.

F0uad, I promise you that everything I posted here has been sufficient for people from layman to highly educated people who joined Jamat Ahmadiyya. If it was falsehood it would not attract the bitter enemies and seekers of truth to join Ahmadiyyat in such large numbers.

I have seen every fair minded Sunni Muslim admit that our concept makes sense and they see that what I am saying actually is very well supported by reason. Which is why when they go to find answers from their Ulama they get abused and told to not make friends with Ahmadis.

If it is not making anymore sense, I am sorry. Quran says granting knowledge is in the hands of God. No matter what I do in my capacity as a human I cannot make you see. Which is why Quran describes such people as blind spiritually, Allah (swt) only grants sight to those who have an intent to see.

It may be prayers that may help you.I would highly recommend reading a book on this topic from both perspectives. I apologize that there is nothing more I can do to make it any clearer, except prayers.

Peace be upon you
 
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