miscarriages, abortion and original sin.

[Pegg]

1-Religion is not based on evidence but in faith.

2- Unless you disagree that God is omniscient (therefore knows all including future) the argument stands with full force. If I unleash a murderer in your house and he murders you, I didn´t choose for him it killing you or not, but if I knew he would do so and still unleashed it in your house, then I am as responsable as him in murdering you, even if I yelled to him "don´t do it!" (because for the case of the example I knew he was going to do it anyways)

Omniscience is an idea that has been bestowed on God. He has never once stated that he looks into the future of every individual...only men have stated that.

What God has said is that he wants us to 'choose life' and this is evidence to me that he does not look into our futures to see what choice we will make. If he already knew our choice, then perhaps he would not keep encouraging us to choose a certain path.

 

[waitasec]

Omniscience is an idea that has been bestowed on God. He has never once stated that he looks into the future of every individual...only men have stated that.
.

pegg, do you think because of passages like these is why men think god is omniscient...
1 John 3:19-20
Proverbs 15:3
Psalms 33:13-15
Proverbs 5:21
Psalms 139:2-4
god knew a & e would fall and thusly intended for us to suffer
which is far far more cruel than the idea of living in an indifferent random world, if we take the story of original sin literally.

 

[Me Myself]

Omniscience is an idea that has been bestowed on God. He has never once stated that he looks into the future of every individual...only men have stated that.

What God has said is that he wants us to 'choose life' and this is evidence to me that he does not look into our futures to see what choice we will make. If he already knew our choice, then perhaps he would not keep encouraging us to choose a certain path.

Do you believe the book of life was written in a rush? I am sure somewhere it said that the names in it were always in it. Maybe I read wrong?

 

[idav]

god knew a & e would fall and thusly intended for us to suffer

First he intended for us to be enlightened which I hardly think is a fall.

I do have a problem with the curse thing and for it to cover several thousand generations of your childrens children is way too much. It is all good when you just teaching someone a lesson but to the point that it has gotten today, it is no longer a valid reason. It is way out of hand which gets into the apathy thing you've been talking about.

 

[Nerthus]

I've heard arguments like this a lot. It seems that good things like having a baby is often seen as a miracle from God, yet if the baby dies before or after birth, people will never blame God.

 

[idav]

I've arguments like this a lot. It seems that good things like having a baby is often seen as a miracle from God, yet if the baby dies before or after birth, people will never blame God.

I also find it interesting that when doctors have to pull out a medical wonder to save the baby, god gets the credit.

 

[Nerthus]

I also find it interesting that when doctors have to pull out a medical wonder to save the baby, god gets the credit.

I guess people would argue that God gave them the ability and meant the baby to be saved.

I never quite understand how all the good things are gifts from God, yet anything bad isn't - as we have seen from the OT God is very capable of doing bad. Why the change?

 

[idav]

I guess people would argue that God gave them the ability and meant the baby to be saved.

I never quite understand how all the good things are gifts from God, yet anything bad isn't - as we have seen from the OT God is very capable of doing bad. Why the change?

Yeah and god gave theme the ailments in the first place to be saved from so I'm not sure if doctors or working for or against god.

It's like having blinders cause god changed into being full of love since Jesus stepped in. They are probably just trying to be more Hindu, lol.

Its true that nature is a major b**** but we love her....sometimes.

 

[waitasec]

Yeah and god gave theme the ailments in the first place to be saved from so I'm not sure if doctors or working for or against god.

It's like having blinders cause god changed into being full of love since Jesus stepped in. They are probably just trying to be more Hindu, lol.

Its true that nature is a major b**** but we love her....sometimes.

at least she's a consistent indifferent beeoch...

 

[waitasec]

I guess people would argue that God gave them the ability and meant the baby to be saved.

I never quite understand how all the good things are gifts from God, yet anything bad isn't - as we have seen from the OT God is very capable of doing bad. Why the change?

me neither...
it's a double standard if you ask me.

 

[Pegg]

pegg, do you think because of passages like these is why men think god is omniscient...
1 John 3:19-20
Proverbs 15:3
Psalms 33:13-15
Proverbs 5:21
Psalms 139:2-4
god knew a & e would fall and thusly intended for us to suffer
which is far far more cruel than the idea of living in an indifferent random world, if we take the story of original sin literally.

1John 3: By this we shall know that we originate with the truth, and we shall assure our hearts before him 20 as regards whatever our hearts may condemn us in...
God is greater then our hearts and knows all things...

Prov 15: "The eyes of Jehovah are in every place, keeping watch upon the bad ones and the good ones"

ps 33: "From the heavens Jehovah has looked, He has seen all the sons of men. 14 From the established place where he dwells He has gazed at all those dwelling on the earth. 15 He is forming their hearts all together; He is considering all their works

Prov 5: "For the ways of man are in front of the eyes of Jehovah, and he is contemplating all his tracks

Ps 139 "You yourself have come to know my sitting down and my rising up. You have considered my thought from far off. 3 My journeying and my lying outstretched you have measured off, And you have become familiar even with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But, look! O Jehovah, you already know it all"


I dont see God looking into our futures in any of the above scriptures. He knows our hearts, he knows our desires, he knows our thoughts, in that way he knows everything about us.... but where does it say the knows our futures? It doesnt because these verses are not talking about the futures of individuals. They are all talking about a persons own conduct and actions in the here and now...not in the future.

Our future is in our own hands and we have control of it. Adam could have chosen to remain obedient if he wanted to because he had that choice. Its pretty simple.

 

[waitasec]

1John 3: By this we shall know that we originate with the truth, and we shall assure our hearts before him 20 as regards whatever our hearts may condemn us in...
God is greater then our hearts and knows all things...

Prov 15: "The eyes of Jehovah are in every place, keeping watch upon the bad ones and the good ones"

ps 33: "From the heavens Jehovah has looked, He has seen all the sons of men. 14 From the established place where he dwells He has gazed at all those dwelling on the earth. 15 He is forming their hearts all together; He is considering all their works

Prov 5: "For the ways of man are in front of the eyes of Jehovah, and he is contemplating all his tracks

Ps 139 "You yourself have come to know my sitting down and my rising up. You have considered my thought from far off. 3 My journeying and my lying outstretched you have measured off, And you have become familiar even with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But, look! O Jehovah, you already know it all"


I dont see God looking into our futures in any of the above scriptures. He knows our hearts, he knows our desires, he knows our thoughts, in that way he knows everything about us.... but where does it say the knows our futures?

It doesnt because these verses are not talking about the futures of individuals. They are all talking about a persons own conduct and actions in the here and now...not in the future.

Our future is in our own hands and we have control of it. Adam could have chosen to remain obedient if he wanted to because he had that choice. Its pretty simple.

emphasis by me...

so when you read..."you have considered my thought from far off" and "you know all things" you don't understand omniscience...? do you mean that he's up there and gazing at us from a far in real time?
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

how is it that jesus knew he'd be sacrificed
or betrayed before the rooster crows 3 times
or that the temple will be destroyed?

 

[Pegg]

emphasis by me...

so when you read..."you have considered my thought from far off" and "you know all things" you don't understand omniscience...? do you mean that he's up there and gazing at us from a far in real time?

it means what it says it means...that God knows us individually, he knows what we do, he knows what we think...it doesnt mean "he knows what your future holds". Imagine a married couple who have been together for 50 years...there is a reason why they can finish each others sentences and its not because they are omniscient. Its simply because they know each other so well. They know what each other like, what they dislike, what they prefer to eat and what they would choose to do in a certain situation.

If God wanted to look into your future he could do that. But he doesnt do that.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet[a] no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

this verse doesnt mean that God is the one who has done everything. If I build a house, that doesnt mean God built a house. If I throw a stone in the river and hits a fish on the head and the fish dies, that doesnt mean God threw the stone and hit the fish and killed the fish.

I think you are way off in how you read these scriptures.

how is it that jesus knew he'd be sacrificed
or betrayed before the rooster crows 3 times
or that the temple will be destroyed?

The prophets were able to see into the future if God wanted to reveal something. And the reason why God revealed certain things about certain individuals was for a very specific purpose...but they were exceptions, not the general rule.

 

[waitasec]

The prophets were able to see into the future if God wanted to reveal something. And the reason why God revealed certain things about certain individuals was for a very specific purpose...but they were exceptions, not the general rule.

if god wanted to reveal something from the future god knows the future...right?
exceptions are disclaimers...
a double standard.

 

[Pegg]

if god wanted to reveal something from the future god knows the future...right?
exceptions are disclaimers...
a double standard.

He knows the outcome of his own purposes and plans, but with regard to individuals, no...the exceptions were for a specific purpose only.

The events revealed about the life of the Messiah was for people to be able to identify him when he arrived. They would be able to look at the events foretold and be able to determine if someone was the messiah. Specific purpose.

 

[waitasec]

He knows the outcome of his own purposes and plans, but with regard to individuals, no...the exceptions were for a specific purpose only.

The events revealed about the life of the Messiah was for people to be able to identify him when he arrived. They would be able to look at the events foretold and be able to determine if someone was the messiah. Specific purpose.

no that doesn't work...it's not consistent...
considering gen 8:21 and how he knew judas would betray him...or jeremiah 29:11 or acts 15:18
exceptions made for a specific purpose are just disclaimers explaining the double standard this idea adheres to....
god has the ability to know the future.
it just doesn't fly...not according to my standards...
so because god knows the future, he set man up to fail and thusly he caused for miscarriages, disease and suffering.

 

[Pegg]

no that doesn't work...it's not consistent...
considering gen 8:21 and how he knew judas would betray him...or jeremiah 29:11 or acts 15:18
exceptions made for a specific purpose are just disclaimers explaining the double standard this idea adheres to....
god has the ability to know the future.
it just doesn't fly...not according to my standards...
so because god knows the future, he set man up to fail and thusly he caused for miscarriages, disease and suffering.

oh well, you might enjoy this scripture then:

Exodus 23:25 "...and I shall indeed turn malady away from your midst. 26 Neither a woman suffering an abortion nor a barren woman will exist in your land. I shall make the number of your days full."

but i guess if you are right, then it must be Gods purpose and his desire which is wrong.

 

[waitasec]

oh well, you might enjoy this scripture then:

Exodus 23:25 "...and I shall indeed turn malady away from your midst. 26 Neither a woman suffering an abortion nor a barren woman will exist in your land. I shall make the number of your days full."

but i guess if you are right, then it must be Gods purpose and his desire which is wrong.

how is it wrong?

 

[Pegg]

how is it wrong?

because you said that God created the suffering, the abortions the miscarriages...you said that it was his own purpose for these things to exist and he is the cause of them.

Yet in the bible he testifies about himself that he wants these terrible things gone. He promises to remove them completely so that no one has to go through such things.

 

[Me Myself]

because you said that God created the suffering, the abortions the miscarriages...you said that it was his own purpose for these things to exist and he is the cause of them.

Yet in the bible he testifies about himself that he wants these terrible things gone. He promises to remove them completely so that no one has to go through such things.

You are confusing something important: just because he says that he doesn´t wan´t it doesn´t mean that it isn´t his fault.