Misogynistic and Selfish, Edinburgh's Rape Crisis Centre's CEO is a trans-woman, i.e. a man !

[Magic Man]

I'm sure the NHS and other national healthcare systems across Europe will be grateful to you for pointing out that they've made a mistake changing their health care policies because they're relying on "propaganda"..

Why? I didn't say they've made a mistake. I said you've made mistakes here.

From Magic Man's dictionary:

propaganda: Any information that doesn't fit my ill informed opinions.

No, propaganda is disinformation or misleading information about something in an effort to sway opinion on it in a dishonest way. Which covers most of your comments here, along with the people and sources you cite.

Part of the problem with propaganda is that it has this effect it's having on you, in that it causes people to lash out at people who point out that it's propaganda. If you'd like some help breaking away from it and your ill-formed opinions, I can make some suggestions.

 

[Magic Man]

Your summary of the Cass Report is wrong and dangerous. Many countries in Europe are radically altering their trans medicine policies based on the findings in the Cass report.

My comments about the Cass report are perfectly accurate. Your claims here are what's dangerous. Just because I pointed out that the Cass report doesn't support your wild claims doesn't mean I'm wrong. There is no "trans medicine". No one is radically altering anything. Some have paused certain things while they gather more data. That's about it.

For anyone who wants to get up to speed, the WPATH organization has been the world's de facto leader in determining healthcare protocols for trans people. It creates the SOC (standard of care) document that most of the western world has relied on for many years. The WPATH files do indeed include a summary article. But the link also provides links to hundreds of other documents and a long video. Many of the documents come from WPATH's internal communications, and the video is taken from an hour-long zoom-call discussion between high ranking WPATH officials. Taken together, this information clearly establishes that WPATH officials know they do bad science and bad medicine, and they continue to do it anyway.

Here's the WPATH link again:

The WPATH Files — Environmental Progress

Yet again, this is an article written by Mia Hughes, who also goes by Mia Ashton and Mia Sedley. She is a known anti-trans activist. Your comments here are based on nothing other than your transphobia.

If you want someone who isn't already in your camp to take this seriously, you need to provide actual evidence with reliable sources.

 

[icehorse]

If you want someone who isn't already in your camp to take this seriously, you need to provide actual evidence with reliable sources.

You're so cute

Again, the evidence I've provided is being used by national healthcare systems across Europe to radically alter their approaches to healthcare for kids with gender dysphoria. Specifically, recently used gender affirming care protocols are now being abandoned due to safety and efficacy concerns.

Sadly, the US's mediocre healthcare system is lagging behind Europe in this (and many other) matter(s).

 

[Magic Man]

You're so cute

Again, the evidence I've provided is being used by national healthcare systems across Europe to radically alter their approaches to healthcare for kids with gender dysphoria. Specifically, recently used gender affirming care protocols are now being abandoned due to safety and efficacy concerns.

Again, no, it's not. Let's review:

Your claim: Confused kids are being maimed and sterilized and given cruel treatment.

The "evidence" you presented: We need more data on the current gender-affirming care methods. The methods should still be used when deemed appropriate, but overall we need to do more rigorous study to gain better evidence.

The NHS is not radically altering their approach to healthcare for kids with gender dysphoria.

Sadly, the US's mediocre healthcare system is lagging behind Europe in this (and many other) matter(s).

The U.S. lags behind in a lot of things and is generally not particularly great right now. But that has nothing to do with the fact that gender-affirming care isn't radically changing anywhere.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're intentionally confusing things. Let's assume you're right here. "Not enough evidence that it improves mental health outcomes" is not the same as "does harm".

The real issue with his claim is how he consistently downplays the experiences and reports of trans people here to dismiss them and claim they don't matter compared to his fringe ideas. And he had to in order to make it appear his fringe views are more mainstream. I'm even confident he thinks his views are more mainstream here given an exchange of his implying other members here will read this exchange and side with him.

 

[Magic Man]

I appear to know about how this works than you do. Groups like England's National Health Service agree with me. I'm happy to stand with them.

The NHS does not agree with you. I've told you this and explained why numerous times now. All they've stopped is puberty blockers for children under 16 for the time being. And they will still do clinical trials with some children under 16. They are basically just holding off until they gather more data. Also:

"Fewer than 100 young people are currently on puberty blockers via the NHS and they will be able to continue the treatment, it added.

Puberty blockers will also available through some private gender identity clinics."

Maiming confused kids is a poor way to support trans people, why do you continue to support such horrific medical practices?

No one is maiming confused kids. I wonder what it would take to get through to you. Is there anything that could make you stop repeating these same lies that have been debunked over and over? What if JKR finally saw the light, realized she's been peddling anti-trans propaganda and renounced it? Would that be enough, or would you stick with the other anti-trans activists?

 

[Magic Man]

The real issue with his claim is how he consistently downplays the experiences and reports of trans people here to dismiss them and claim they don't matter compared to his fringe ideas. And he had to in order to make it appear his fringe views are more mainstream. I'm even confident he thinks his views are more mainstream here given an exchange of his implying other members here will read this exchange and side with him.

Let's be serious. Who would know more about trans issues: actual trans people, or JK Rowling? If you say anything other than JKR, you're a trans activist!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Let's be serious. Who would know more about trans issues: actual trans people, or JK Rowling? If you say anything other than JKR, you're a trans activist!

Yup. Notice how he claimed he knows how things work better than I do (I also used to work in the mental health field)?
Seems he accepts trans women are women more than he realizes with such old school misogyny.

 

[icehorse]

The NHS does not agree with you. I've told you this and explained why numerous times now. All they've stopped is puberty blockers for children under 16 for the time being. And they will still do clinical trials with some children under 16. They are basically just holding off until they gather more data. Also:

"Fewer than 100 young people are currently on puberty blockers via the NHS and they will be able to continue the treatment, it added.

Puberty blockers will also available through some private gender identity clinics."

No one is maiming confused kids. I wonder what it would take to get through to you. Is there anything that could make you stop repeating these same lies that have been debunked over and over? What if JKR finally saw the light, realized she's been peddling anti-trans propaganda and renounced it? Would that be enough, or would you stick with the other anti-trans activists?

I know you're not listening, but this is for everyone else reading this thread:

Do date, thousands and thousands of kids across "the west" have received puberty blockers and/or cross-sex hormones as a part of gender affirming care. In addition, several thousand kids have had serious, invasive, irreversible surgeries performed, cutting away healthy tissue and creating a lifetime of medicalization for those patients.

The Cass report was an independent report commissioned by the NHS, it was not some "anti-trans propaganda".

For several decades now WPATH, a pro-trans organization, has created the world-wide, de facto, standard of care for kids with gender dysphoria. WPATH has been trusted by national health organizations throughout Europe, and has been officially supported in the US by (document below):

- American Medical Association
- American Academy of Pediatrics
- American Psychiatric Association
- American Psychological Association
- The Endocrine Society
- American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
- American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
- American Society of Plastic Surgeons
- The US Government

- Many legislators fighting for gender affirming care laws
- Various hospitals and clinics
- Various activist groups including GLAAD and the ACLU

But the documentation revealed by a whistle blower establishes that WPATH lied to all of these organizations. They lied consistently and repeatedly over the course of decades.

The entire edifice of "gender affirming care" (GAC), is a house of cards built with WPATH at its foundation, and WPATH does bad science and bad medicine.

GAC has no good quality evidence to support its efficacy, and it is dangerous at each of its steps: talk therapy, to drugs, to surgeries.

Finally, WPATH's default mode of operation is to assume that kids with gender dysphoria (GD), ought to be transitioned. If we step back and think about it, this is the goal of trans activists. When providing care for a kid with GD, the goal ought to be to improve the patient's mental health. Full stop.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Finally, WPATH's default mode of operation is to assume that kids with gender dysphoria (GD), ought to be transitioned.

Because you don't know of the hoops and gates and everything else that must be jumped through and over.
WPATH model requires time and therapy, things you consistently fail to acknowledge.

 

[icehorse]

Because you don't know of the hoops and gates and everything else that must be jumped through and over.
WPATH model requires time and therapy, things you consistently fail to acknowledge.

And SOMETIMES that happens, and that's a good thing.

But often those hoops and gates are sidestepped, and that's a scandalous thing

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Groups like England's National Health Service agree with me.

As someone who works directly with the NHS, this is outright false.

 

[Magic Man]

I know you're not listening, but this is for everyone else reading this thread:

Yet again, it's not me who's not listening.

Do date, thousands and thousands of kids across "the west" have received puberty blockers and/or cross-sex hormones as a part of gender affirming care. In addition, several thousand kids have had serious, invasive, irreversible surgeries performed, cutting away healthy tissue and creating a lifetime of medicalization for those patients.

Please stop. Again, "serious, invasive, irreversible" and "cutting away healthy tissue and creating a lifetime of medicalization" are intentionally loaded words. If you can't make an argument without such dishonesty, don't try.

Yes, a lot of young people have received gender-affirming care. It has helped a lot of them in many ways. Some of it has risks, just like any healthcare. Some of it is irreversible, just like some other forms of healthcare. It's not the horrorscape you're portraying, though.

The Cass report was an independent report commissioned by the NHS, it was not some "anti-trans propaganda".

No one said it was. It also doesn't support anything you've said here.

For several decades now WPATH, a pro-trans organization, has created the world-wide, de facto, standard of care for kids with gender dysphoria. WPATH has been trusted by national health organizations throughout Europe, and has been officially supported in the US by (document below):

- American Medical Association
- American Academy of Pediatrics
- American Psychiatric Association
- American Psychological Association
- The Endocrine Society
- American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
- American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
- American Society of Plastic Surgeons
- The US Government

- Many legislators fighting for gender affirming care laws
- Various hospitals and clinics
- Various activist groups including GLAAD and the ACLU

But the documentation revealed by a whistle blower establishes that WPATH lied to all of these organizations. They lied consistently and repeatedly over the course of decades.

You still have yet to support this with evidence. Just continuing to make baseless claims is harmful. Either stop making these claims or support them.

The entire edifice of "gender affirming care" (GAC), is a house of cards built with WPATH at its foundation, and WPATH does bad science and bad medicine.

Nope. Gender-affirming care is valuable healthcare for trans people. You still haven't shown that WPATH "does bad science and bad medicine". If you're not going to actually support your claims with evidence, don't make them. At this point, you're just spreading propaganda.

GAC has no good quality evidence to support its efficacy, and it is dangerous at each of its steps: talk therapy, to drugs, to surgeries.

It does have some good quality evidence. The Cass report just determined that more is needed. Talk therapy is not dangerous. The drugs are not especially dangerous. Surgery only happens rarely, and even more so for young people.

Finally, WPATH's default mode of operation is to assume that kids with gender dysphoria (GD), ought to be transitioned. If we step back and think about it, this is the goal of trans activists. When providing care for a kid with GD, the goal ought to be to improve the patient's mental health. Full stop.

The goal of providing healthcare for young people with gender dysphoria is to help them and their mental health. That's the entire point. No default mode is to assume kids with gender dysphoria ought to be transitioned. Young people rarely transition. You've fallen for propaganda and are now spreading it here. Please stop.

 

[Magic Man]

And SOMETIMES that happens, and that's a good thing.

But often those hoops and gates are sidestepped, and that's a scandalous thing

Cool, now again all you have to show is evidence for this claim. Since you haven't supported any of your other claims, I don't have any real hope it'll happen, but I'll keep pointing it out.

 

[Magic Man]

Because icehorse keeps bringing it up as if it's credible evidence, I want to address the WPATH files. After looking into it some more, this boils down to another attempt from a right-wing source to use selective quotes to smear an organization. It's a lot like Project Veritas. It's not a real investigation done by a credible source.

The "report" was commissioned by Michael Shellenberger, who is a notable conservative activist.
He wrote a book called San Fransicko: Why Progressive Ruin Cities.
He tweets a lot about "wokeism" and Critical Race Theory, very typical right-wing boogeymen.
He has publicly stated "that he wants to end access to all gender-affirming surgeries".

The author of the article is Mia Hughes, who also goes by Mia Ashton and Mia Sedley. She is an anti-trans activist like Shellenberger.

Shellenberger collaborated on the report with Genspect, an anti-trans group that supports conversion therapy (or at least opposes bans on it), among other things. At their conference last year, they had several far-right speakers including James Lindsay, a conspiracy theorist and the person who popularized the term "groomer" in reference to LGBTQ people.

The "report" itself is just a collection of clips and quotes. Some are from WPTAH officials. Some are from members of the organization who aren't in positions of power who posted on message boards, meaning the quotes are not official WPATH stances. And they're all selective and without context.

Here's a decent article about it. Yes, this is from Media Matters, a left-wing source, but it lays out the information concisely.

In other words, it's just another piece of anti-trans propaganda with no credibility.

 

[icehorse]

As someone who works directly with the NHS, this is outright false.

What did I say that was false?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What did I say that was false?

That the NHS agrees with you. That is false.

 

[icehorse]

Please stop. Again, "serious, invasive, irreversible" and "cutting away healthy tissue and creating a lifetime of medicalization" are intentionally loaded words. If you can't make an argument without such dishonesty, don't try.

Yes, a lot of young people have received gender-affirming care. It has helped a lot of them in many ways. Some of it has risks, just like any healthcare. Some of it is irreversible, just like some other forms of healthcare. It's not the horrorscape you're portraying, though.

The context here is crucial. GAC is a protocol for GD, correct? GD can be a serious mental health condition, no doubt, correct?

Now perhaps - and for now just perhaps - IF GAC improved the mental health of kids suffering from GD, you might have an argument for using dangerous drugs with irreversible side effects and then even more radically, cutting away healthy tissue.

But there is no good evidence that any of these interventions improve the mental health of kids with GD.

Again, GD is a mental health condition. Kids with GD don't typically have unhealthy tissue. So when surgeries are done in the name of GAC, doctors ARE removing healthy tissue. I'm not using loaded words, that's the reality. It simply IS horrific.

You still have yet to support this with evidence. Just continuing to make baseless claims is harmful. Either stop making these claims or support them.

I provided a downloadable file as evidence.

If you will not look at the evidence provided, stop posting in this thread.

Nope. Gender-affirming care is valuable healthcare for trans people. You still haven't shown that WPATH "does bad science and bad medicine". If you're not going to actually support your claims with evidence, don't make them. At this point, you're just spreading propaganda.

Nope. Along with other meta studies, the Cass report determined what I said. There is no good evidence that GAC is effective.

Since you are defending GAC then YOU are on the side making the claim that it's effective. We know it's dangerous, so YOU need to provide good, scientific evidence that it is effective. This is on you. When we do GOOD MEDICINE, we do not do dangerous things to patients without good evidence.

Where is your good evidence that GAC is helpful??

As for your continued cries of "propaganda", perhaps you're projecting here? You sound just like a trans activist

The "report" itself is just a collection of clips and quotes. Some are from WPTAH officials. Some are from members of the organization who aren't in positions of power who posted on message boards, meaning the quotes are not official WPATH stances. And they're all selective and without context.

The report includes an hour long video of high ranking members of WPATH discussing GAC. There is plenty of context, and what they say is shocking. For the sake of argument, let's say the reporter is biased. Who cares? The video speaks for itself. WPATH has not responded to the release of the WPATH files. If the video and these internal documents paint an inaccurate picture, then why hasn't WPATH done anything to try to restorre its reputation?

Please explain how an uncontested hour long video of a discussion between WPATH officials "has no credibility".

That seems like an extraordinary claim, please provide evidence.

 

[icehorse]

That the NHS agrees with you. That is false.

I've said a lot, what specifically are you referring to?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I've said a lot, what specifically are you referring to?

You said the NHS agrees with you. What specifically were YOU referring to?