Modern man like footprints found, evolution theory in doubt.

[metis]

How about the genetic/genomic evidence?

Yes, and let just add that paleontologists work with fossilized bones, so distinguishing an amphibian from a lizard may not be that easy at times.

 

[dad1]

You are claiming that disparate processes, such as sedimentation in lakes, formation of tree rings, deposition of layers in cave formations, layer formation in glaciers, growth of corals, shifts in the earth's magnetic field and radioactivity, were all different in the past exactly so as to appear not to have changed at all.

Not really. Just because a tree grows fast in a different nature, doesn't mean it doesn't have rings also. Same with layers, just because processes were rapid doesn't mean there were not layers. You seem to suggest that unless it gets formed in this nature nothing can happen. That is not credible. If you insist on it, you need to provide proof there ever only was this present set of forces and laws in place..

On the other hand, it is very clear where your notions come from; cynical scoundrels conning gullible folk.

Don't let your fail result in knavish sore loser name calling.

 

[dad1]

I don' need to. There is no evidence otherwise and the burden of proof is on you.

Neither do I need to prove there is a heaven or there was a creation. Since science can't deal with it anyhow, it seems hypocritical to demand scientific evidence. I demand scientific evidence for science claims of course. You have none. In all ways on all fronts you lose.

No, the rational approach to studying history.

What is your idea of a rational approach, denial of spirits and life spans recorded etc?

Now you present the religious nonsense. There was no Noah.

You know there was no man named Noah..how?

You have consistently failed to show there is an issue. And we have consistently shown that our methods of studying the past are consistent. That is all that is required.

Your methods are very consistent! Consistent with godless fanatical religious denial and ignorance.

 

[dad1]

Show ONE piece of evidence that it wasn't.

Wasn't? Try to focus. You were asked to show any ONE of the supposed different dating methods that does not depend on a same state in the far past. Show us what you got.

 

[dad1]

When do you think the Flood and the Tower of Babel occur?

Usually I see the flood dated something like about 4500 years ago, more or less.

 

[Polymath257]

Wasn't? Try to focus. You were asked to show any ONE of the supposed different dating methods that does not depend on a same state in the far past. Show us what you got.

Show one piece of evidence that the past didn't have the same laws of physics.

 

[Jose Fly]

I asked a very direct question, you failed to answer it, you didn't address it.

What question was that?

Taxonomy isn't a product of nature, it is a human convenience tool, nothing more. A class is just a human term.

So what?

The facts are that all of your chosen examples are fundamentally the same, and you haven't documented them evolving into something fundamentally different, whatever you choose to call it. Insects, are still insects, bacteria are still bacteria, and on it goes.

IOW, it's just as I said. You never were asking your questions out of genuine curiosity. If you were really interested in the subject, you would do what most people do.....go look up the information yourself. The fact that you instead went to a religious forum and posed them as challenges, plus your ignoring of so many questions, plus your subsequent hand-waving of the information you were given, is good indication that you approach this the same as every other Christian creationist. Your only interest in the data is to deny it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I have stated elsewhere, and have given examples of, is the problems with the geologic dating system, e,g. extreme folding and fracturing, fossils of alleged creatures separated by millions of years found together, alleged further evolved whale ancestors found under alleged less evolved whale ancestors and there are many, many examples.

Can you cite any of your examples?

 

[Looncall]

Not really. Just because a tree grows fast in a different nature, doesn't mean it doesn't have rings also. Same with layers, just because processes were rapid doesn't mean there were not layers. You seem to suggest that unless it gets formed in this nature nothing can happen. That is not credible. If you insist on it, you need to provide proof there ever only was this present set of forces and laws in place..
Don't let your fail result in knavish sore loser name calling.

Dodged again, I see. You have failed to address the consilience among the phenomena.

Mind you, I have never seen a creationist fail to dodge that.

I suppose the mountebanks at the YEC mills haven't thought up a suitable fantasy yet.

 

[Milton Platt]

You extrapolated much from a little, wrongly. Your term "rocking chair religion" nether applies to my post, nor my belief system. Your opinion is noted, but why you expressed it is extremely unclear., Overwhelming scientific evidence, really ? In some cases yes, in most of the big time questions, no. If you think macro evolution has "overwhelming evidence" to support it, you are wrong. That chart you saw in high school is bogus, and any honest evolutionist will tell you so

So, nearly all scientists are wrong about a subject they spent their lives gathering evidence on and studying? Because an overwhelming majority of scientists clearly support evolution. Provide the alternate theory which takes into account all of the existing evidence.

 

[Polymath257]

Usually I see the flood dated something like about 4500 years ago, more or less.

Prove that there was a flood 4500 years ago (plus or minus) using the constraints that nothing today can give information about the past.

 

[Polymath257]

You know there was no man named Noah..how?

Well, in the scientific system, there was no global flood at all, so nobody built an arc to survive such.

In your system, there is no way to know there even were people since nothing today can give evidence about the past.

 

[gnostic]

Usually I see the flood dated something like about 4500 years ago, more or less.

And the Tower of Babel?

I am asking because of your claim about writing only became necessary after the Babel incident...

You think there was ink in Noah's day?? Why is that? You do realize that was before Babel when writing presumably even became necessary?!

So when do you think Babel happen?

 

[Polymath257]

Usually I see the flood dated something like about 4500 years ago, more or less.

I usually see that the flood story is a myth or allegory. So, how do we determine the truth of the matter?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Your unsupported belief that there was no flood is not something known. Why try to force your beliefs?


Yes, there are the records! Science has no evidence either way. Your baseless opinion of what went on long before science existed has zero value.

Absurd. You have religious same state past belief dates. The remains we do have are post flood. You can assume all you wish, but that is not evidence.
No, you do not. You have religious nonsense expressed in the form of 'dates'.
If the flood was, as I suspect, somewhere near the KT layer, then name any civilization before this?
Yes it does. The KT iridium may be evidence. The rapid extinction around that time. The history of man, and Scripture. Remember that the rapid separation of continents/mountain building/uplift likely happened after the flood. That would mean that some poor scientist running around looking for some surface evidence of some imagined undisturbed flood would be comically showing us he had no dept of comprehension?

By the way, don't waste our time rattling off same state past based belief dating or dates. Ridiculous.

All that exists by way of evidence are an unverified account that is wrought with errors and inconsistencies and a bunch of could be's and maybe's that have long been ruled out. The very possibility of a global flood is ruled out by what we know of physics.

The KT boundary is explained best by the collision of an asteroid with the earth. Your ideas go against what the flood story says about saving animals. Those that went extinct were not saved in the ark and there isn't even an accounting of dinosaurs on the ark to give you a thread of hope that your speculation has some legs.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Hi Dan! LTNS!

Yes, this is a very plausible explanation of how a flood story could have originated, even in multiple places independently.

Most places on Earth have visible strata that contain shells and other visibly water-based fossils. To envision a large flood as an explanation would not be a stretch at all.

I think it important to keep in mind that people 5000 years ago were fully modern humans with essentially the same capacity for thought. They could and did observe the world around them and formulated hypotheses to explain what they saw. Many of these hypotheses were folded into their religious beliefs. The main difference is that there wasn't much skepticism about the conclusions: anything that worked on a day-to-day level tended to stick without being challenged further. Also, and partly because of the lack of skepticism, the depth of knowledge was rather shallow. it took time and a lot of work to build up to our current understanding of the universe.

Ancient people were just as smart, but not as knowledgeable.

Good to see you too. I thought I would move to a more upscale neighborhood.

I agree. We aren't seeing the work of stupid people, just less knowledgeable and more geared towards belief.

There seems to be a growing body of people that don't have much skepticism or have a rather slanted, episodic skepticism directed against explanations based on logic and evidence and for rather fantastical explanations that favor their beliefs.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

There are evidences that the Epic of Gilgamesh were popular and spread as far west as the Hittite empire in the north and Egypt in the south.

And since the Southern Levant - which Bronze Age Canaan, and Iron Age Israel and Judah - the region become hub and gateway, not only for wars and conquests, but also for trades and cultural exchanges.

Canaan, and the later Israel and Judah, were not isolated from neighbouring kingdoms or tribal nations.

The Epic of Gilgamesh were well known, during Bronze Age (mostly from mid to late 2 millennium BCE, so about 17th or 16th century to the start of 10th century BCE) and Iron Age.

Tablets, sometimes whole, but most of time fragmented and damaged, managed to survive complete destruction and loss, have been discovered with other Mesopotamian texts in these sites, outside of Babylonia (and Assyria).

For instances, during the mid-2nd millennium BCE, Middle Babylonian texts (during the Kassite empire), including the Epic of Gilgamesh, have found their ways to Mari, northern Syria, and even further north and west, in the Hittite capital, Hattsua.

And some tablets were found in religious capital of Akhenaten or Amenhotep IV (1353 - 1336 BCE, 18th dynasty, New Kingdom period) - Akhetaten, which is better known today as Amarna.

Fragments of the epic and other stories are found in many locations, including that of Ugarit and Megiddo, that are dated to the mid-2nd millennium BCE, hence the late Bronze Age.

These tablets are evidences that such a story predated the Genesis being composed during the Iron Age, 7th century BCE.

The Epic was still popular at the time of Genesis composition, where most of the extant collection of tablets (the epic of Gilgamesh, eleven tablets) were copied and kept in the Library of Ashurbanipal, Nineveh. The Library was discovered in the mid-19th century. This collection of 11 tablets became known as the Standard Version.

Even older version of the epic exist, tablets (fragments) kept at University Museum in Pennsylvania, and one fragment at Yale Babylonian Collection in New Haven, Connecticut.

An independent epic, known as the Epic of Atrahasis, was written in Old Babylonian, most likely dated to 17th century BCE. Atrahasis is mostly likely the original Semitic (Akkadian) name of the later Utnapishtim of Middle Babylonian and Neo-Babylonian.

But even older legend of Utnapishtim and Atrahasis, from Sumerian, where his name is Ziusudra, the original Flood hero.

Ziusudra is only alluded to in one Sumerian poem, the Death of Gilgames (or Bilgames, as it transliterated from Sumerian), dated to the late 3rd millennium BCE. There are 5 distinct Sumerian poems of Gilgames, four of which later reappeared in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, so we know of the origin of Epic.

Although there are not much detail about Gilgames' journey to see Ziusudra, like the epic's tablets 9 to 11 of the Standard Version, where it narrated Gilgamesh's journey and encounter with Utnapishtim, we do know that it is obvious the Sumerians were aware of such tale.

Ziusudra and the Flood also appeared more fully in the Sumerian text, known today as the Eridu Genesis, however these tablets are badly fragmented. But what is clear, even with the damaged tablets, is that there are too many similarities to the later Akkadian or Old Babylonian Epic of Atrahasis, and to the Neo-Assyrian Standard Version.

Ziusudra also appeared in one of the Sumerian King List, as well as tablet known as the Instructions of Shuruppak.

Shuruppak is the name of a city-state, as well as the name of a king who ruled that city, supposedly Ziusudra's father.

A lot of translations to Sumerian literature are available free at The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL), at this link:

• The instructions of Šuruppag
• The Flood story (Eridu Genesis)
• The death of Gilgames

I have my own translations in a single book, Harps That Once...: Sumerian Poetry in Translation, by Thorkild Jacobsen (Yale University Press, 1997).

For a collection of both Standard Version of the Epic of Gilgamesh, that also of other tablets, including the Sumerian poems of Bilgames, I would recommend The Epic of Gilgamesh: A New Translation, by Andrew George (Penguin Classics, 1999).

For the Epic of Atrahasis and other Babylonian texts, there is a book by Stephanie Dalley - Myths From Mesopotamia (Oxford World's Classics, 2000). I think it is now available on-line.

I hoped that these information help.

Awesome information.

The origin from the Gilgamesh story has long been the most likely source of the biblical flood story. It makes the most sense and as you note, the connections are numerous as well as the many shared elements. Like the creation story, there is evidence that different versions of what was probably oral tradition were transcribed and fused into what ended up in the Bible.

Your information helps very much. My current knowledge is based around the story of George Smith who rediscovered the story of Gilgamesh in the 1870's. You have expanded my sources markedly here. Thanks again.

 

[dad1]

Show one piece of evidence that the past didn't have the same laws of physics.

Show one piece of evidence that the past did have the same laws of physics.

 

[dad1]

Dodged again, I see. You have failed to address the consilience among the phenomena.

Mind you, I have never seen a creationist fail to dodge that.

I suppose the mountebanks at the YEC mills haven't thought up a suitable fantasy yet.

The only consilience among the phenomena is that you use your baseless belief in a same state past in each and every one. Religiously. Without fail. Methodically.

 

[dad1]

Prove that there was a flood 4500 years ago (plus or minus) using the constraints that nothing today can give information about the past.

The proof is outside of science. Science doesn't know either way...dumb little piker it is.