Mohamed's surah 2 back-pedal.

[stevecanuck]

Already explain Stevecanuck, I talked about us as Muslims many times when talking about past generations. For example, in that thread about why Islam as is is a false religion:

(1) We didn't support our Imams (a) through out time, and hence can't claim to represent them properly.
(2) We mixed falsehood with truth and commanded people to what we didn't do ourselves.
(3) We didn't hold our scholars and their leadership accountable to Quran similarly how Christians followed their scholars without holding them accountable.

This shows, we aren't the true religion, even if Mohammad, Ali.... the Mahdi... (Ahlubayt) are true the same way it shows Judaism and Christianity are not truth even if Musa and Isa are true.


Comment: You are being obtuse to what is normal in language.

Could you be more vague? The question still stands - Did you participate in the beheading of the Jewish men and youth of the Banu Quriaza?

 

[Link]

Could you be more vague? The question still stands - Did you participate in the beheading of the Jewish men and youth of the Banu Quriaza?

Your question is loaded, that is why I don't answer it. You are being stubborn and obtuse.

 

[firedragon]

It makes no sense that 'Allah' should say, "YOU worshipped the golden calf (where they absolutely did not)",

How do you know?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you for providing another example of the Jews of Yathrib being blamed for alleged acts of long before. There are more.

Good observation.
This is because these were the people who had lived 2000 or 3000 years ago, but they had "Returned" to the world!

I will tell you a secret in the scriptures.

In scriptures, both Quran, and Bible and the Hadithes, we see, expressions, as if the people will come back to the world, at the end of the world. This is again, just as what you have observed.
Everytime, a Messenger came, He spoke of people returning to the world. Just as the Quran speaks of.
Here is a Hadith, from Imam Ali:

"We will definitely construct a pulpit in Egypt and destroy Damascus and remove the Jews and Christians from each corner of the Arab world and drive all the Arabs through this staff.

Abaya says: I asked: O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), as if you want to say that you will return after death?
He replied, “It is not so, O Abaya, as you think; a man from me (my descendants) would perform these tasks.”

In Shia, there is this belief that, people will come back to world at the End, because there are many Hadithes, that actually says that.
But the meaning of these Hadithes, is that, in future age, as Mahdi comes, the people of His time, are just like the people of the past, as if they will return to the world. This is because a Great portion of the Holy Books are written figuratively, with hidden meanings.

Now, remember in the Bible Jesus said, Elijah had returned? Then the scriptures made it clear, He was speaking of John the Baptist. This is because John was the return of Elijah.
As all Scriptures of the world are inspired by the same God, we observe, the hidden language in them, is the same. Likewise Jesus said, He will return to the world, and by this He meant someone else, who is His own return. In Hadithes there are hints about that.

 

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That hadith shows the Mahdi is from Ahlulbayt (a) and Ali (a) is talking about "we" as in Ahlulbayt (a), and so Imam Mahdi (a) will perform these tasks. Nothing to do with returning as Imam Ali (a) said it's not that what he meant in this context.

 

[stevecanuck]

Your question is loaded, that is why I don't answer it. You are being stubborn and obtuse.

No, it's completely in line with the tone of surah 2. God said to the Jews of that time, "YOU did .......". All I'm doing is asking you if you're willing to have the same sort of accusation leveled at you. It's perfectly linear and logical.

 

[stevecanuck]

How do you know?

Do really not think that if the Jews of Yathrib had a golden calf that it wouldn't rate a mention anywhere? You never really rebut. You're just a drive-by artist. Well, there's the road. Keep driving.

 

[stevecanuck]

Good observation.
This is because these were the people who had lived 2000 or 3000 years ago, but they had "Returned" to the world!

I will tell you a secret in the scriptures.

In scriptures, both Quran, and Bible and the Hadithes, we see, expressions, as if the people will come back to the world, at the end of the world. This is again, just as what you have observed.
Everytime, a Messenger came, He spoke of people returning to the world. Just as the Quran speaks of.
Here is a Hadith, from Imam Ali:

"We will definitely construct a pulpit in Egypt and destroy Damascus and remove the Jews and Christians from each corner of the Arab world and drive all the Arabs through this staff.

Abaya says: I asked: O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), as if you want to say that you will return after death?
He replied, “It is not so, O Abaya, as you think; a man from me (my descendants) would perform these tasks.”

In Shia, there is this belief that, people will come back to world at the End, because there are many Hadithes, that actually says that.
But the meaning of these Hadithes, is that, in future age, as Mahdi comes, the people of His time, are just like the people of the past, as if they will return to the world. This is because a Great portion of the Holy Books are written figuratively, with hidden meanings.

Now, remember in the Bible Jesus said, Elijah had returned? Then the scriptures made it clear, He was speaking of John the Baptist. This is because John was the return of Elijah.
As all Scriptures of the world are inspired by the same God, we observe, the hidden language in them, is the same. Likewise Jesus said, He will return to the world, and by this He meant someone else, who is His own return. In Hadithes there are hints about that.

You must make pretzels for a living. There is nothing that even remotely hints that the Jews of Yathrib were reincarnations of the people of Moses' time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You must make pretzels for a living. There is nothing that even remotely hints that the Jews of Yathrib were reincarnations of the people of Moses' time.

Those very verses that you are quoting actually says so. This is why it is accusing them of killing past messengers. This is because when Muhammad came, the dead people were resurrected:

"Is he who was dead and We have raised him unto life, and set for him a light wherein he walketh among men, as him whose similitude is in utter darkness whence he cannot emerge? Thus is their conduct made fairseeming for the disbelievers." 6:122

The verse says, Allah resurrected the Dead, and now the Dead is walking among others

 

[Link]

No, it's completely in line with the tone of surah 2. God said to the Jews of that time, "YOU did .......". All I'm doing is asking you if you're willing to have the same sort of accusation leveled at you. It's perfectly linear and logical.

Jews at that time can be addressed as limited to people living that time or they can be addressed as a people including their generations of the past all the way to Musa. Since there can be a misunderstanding that God is accounting them with deeds of the past generations when addressed with past generation, they are in one verse addressed as people of living at that time as well, and it's saying you won't be accounted for the past generations and that is not what God means when addressing you as a people including past generations.

It's not rocket science. You are overcomplicating a very simple issue.

 

[stevecanuck]

The reflexive def

Those very verses that you are quoting actually says so. This is why it is accusing them of killing past messengers. This is because when Muhammad came, the dead people were resurrected:

"Is he who was dead and We have raised him unto life, and set for him a light wherein he walketh among men, as him whose similitude is in utter darkness whence he cannot emerge? Thus is their conduct made fairseeming for the disbelievers." 6:122

The verse says, Allah resurrected the Dead, and now the Dead is walking among others[/QUOTE]

This is hilarious. First you take the literal and call it figurative, and now you take this parable and call it literal.

 

[stevecanuck]

Jews at that time can be addressed as limited to people living that time or they can be addressed as a people including their generations of the past all the way to Musa.

Says who? You refuse to answer if the same can be said of Muslims. Why is that? Based on your logic I am going to henceforth consider you one of the murderers who behead hundreds of Jews after they surrendered without a fight.

Since there can be a misunderstanding that God is accounting them with deeds of the past generations when addressed with past generation, they are in one verse addressed as people of living at that time as well, and it's saying you won't be accounted for the past generations and that is not what God means when addressing you as a people including past generations.

Exactly. 'Allah' had to walk his previous accusations back. That's what I'm saying.

It's not rocket science. You are overcomplicating a very simple issue.

Yes, it's a simple issue. First 'Allah' makes an accusation directed at the Jews of Yathrib, and then he has to admit that they're not guilty after all. Yes, very simple indeed.

 

[Link]

I don't think I can clarify further. You make problems in your own head and don't move out of them.

 

[firedragon]

Do really not think that if the Jews of Yathrib

Where does it say "Jews of Yathrib" in the Qur'an?

 

[stevecanuck]

Where does it say "Jews of Yathrib" in the Qur'an?

2:40 - "O children of Israel".

And to pre-emptively answer your next disingenuous deflection, there's not one Islamic scholar who doesn't agree that Mohamed was addressing the Jews of Yathrib in surah 2.

 

[stevecanuck]

I don't think I can clarify further. You make problems in your own head and don't move out of them.

Okay then, I'll just sum up your argument for you -- "IS NOT!!!!".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is hilarious. First you take the literal and call it figurative, and now you take this parable and call it literal.

I didn't say, I take it literal. Did I?
I said this is what the verse says. And clearly this is what the verse says. How you would interpret it is another story.

But the whole thing goes together. In the language of Quran, Allah has resurrected the past people, and they had come to this world again. He then says to them why you killed the Messengers.

So, also Quran says the resurrection happens in the future.

 

[Link]

Okay then, I'll just sum up your argument for you -- "IS NOT!!!!".

Okay.

 

[firedragon]

2:40 - "O children of Israel".

That does not say "Jews of Yathrib"!

And to pre-emptively answer your next disingenuous deflection, there's not one Islamic scholar who doesn't agree that Mohamed was addressing the Jews of Yathrib in surah 2.

What does Fakhruddin ar razy say?

 

[firedragon]

But the whole thing goes together. In the language of Quran, Allah has resurrected the past people, and they had come to this world again. He then says to them why you killed the Messengers.

Thats the most nonsense I have heard in my life. Why do you make up lies about God and what he said which is not there in the verse claiming you believe in God??