Mohamed's surah 2 back-pedal.

[InvestigateTruth]

Thats the most nonsense I have heard in my life. Why do you make up lies about God and what he said which is not there in the verse claiming you believe in God??

Excuse me, but I quoted the verses in my posts, did you not see them?


"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!
When the Apostle of God [Muḥammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, for they could not bear the news"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 78-79


"And the trumpet is blown. This is the threatened Day" Quran 50:20

"As the commentators of the Qur’án and they that follow the letter thereof misapprehended the inner meaning of the words of God and failed to grasp their essential purpose, they sought to demonstrate that, according to the rules of grammar, whenever the term “idhá” (meaning “if” or “when”) precedeth the past tense, it invariably hath reference to the future. Later, they were sore perplexed in attempting to explain those verses of the Book wherein that term did not actually occur. Even as He hath revealed (in Quran 50:20): “And there was a blast on the trumpet,—lo! it is the threatened Day! And every soul is summoned to a reckoning,—with In explaining this and similar verses, they have in some cases argued that the term “idhá” is implied. In other instances, they have idly contended that whereas the Day of Judgment is inevitable, it hath therefore been referred to as an event not of the future but of the past. How vain their sophistry! How grievous their blindness! They refuse to recognize the trumpet-blast which so explicitly in this text was sounded through the revelation of Muḥammad.

Nay, by “trumpet” is meant the trumpet-call of Muḥammad’s Revelation, which was sounded in the heart of the universe, and by “resurrection” is meant His own rise to proclaim the Cause of God. He bade the erring and wayward arise and speed out of the sepulchres of their bodies, arrayed them with the beauteous robe of faith, and quickened them with the breath of a new and wondrous life."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 97-120

 

[firedragon]

Excuse me, but I quoted the verses in my posts, did you not see them?


"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!
When the Apostle of God [Muḥammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, for they could not bear the news"

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Pages 78-79


"And the trumpet is blown. This is the threatened Day" Quran 50:20

"As the commentators of the Qur’án and they that follow the letter thereof misapprehended the inner meaning of the words of God and failed to grasp their essential purpose, they sought to demonstrate that, according to the rules of grammar, whenever the term “idhá” (meaning “if” or “when”) precedeth the past tense, it invariably hath reference to the future. Later, they were sore perplexed in attempting to explain those verses of the Book wherein that term did not actually occur. Even as He hath revealed (in Quran 50:20): “And there was a blast on the trumpet,—lo! it is the threatened Day! And every soul is summoned to a reckoning,—with In explaining this and similar verses, they have in some cases argued that the term “idhá” is implied. In other instances, they have idly contended that whereas the Day of Judgment is inevitable, it hath therefore been referred to as an event not of the future but of the past. How vain their sophistry! How grievous their blindness! They refuse to recognize the trumpet-blast which so explicitly in this text was sounded through the revelation of Muḥammad.

Nay, by “trumpet” is meant the trumpet-call of Muḥammad’s Revelation, which was sounded in the heart of the universe, and by “resurrection” is meant His own rise to proclaim the Cause of God. He bade the erring and wayward arise and speed out of the sepulchres of their bodies, arrayed them with the beauteous robe of faith, and quickened them with the breath of a new and wondrous life."

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 97-120

Show me one verse that says they will be resurrected on earth! One single verse.

All of this heart of the universe etc etc are just made up. Made up.

And don't try to teach people languages you have not even a kindergarten child's level of knowledge.

 

[KWED]

Anyone who has read my posts knows I believe that Mohamed authored the Qur'an on an ad hoc basis. Looking at his first attempts to convert the Jews of Yathrib can only be described as clumsy. His major blunder was to confuse the past with the present. Alternating between 2nd-person and 3rd-person conjugations creates the impression that the Jews of Yathrib were being admonished for the sins of their ancestors by occasionally, but not always, inserting them into events of the past. Would a perfect god, or perhaps an improvising person, make such a grammatical blunder?

Verse 2:49 starts by saying, "We delivered you from the People of Pharaoh". The next few verses continue to magically transport the Jews of Yathrib into the past 33 times (not counting 2:54 which correctly uses the second person in quoting Moses' speech to his followers). Mohamed really steps in it in verse 2:61 by mixing tenses while speaking of the same people. It starts with, "And when you said: O Moses...", but by the end, the object of his remarks switches to "they". In 2:67 through 2:71, Moses again speaks to his people, and this time, only "they" answer him, but in the next few verses, it becomes the 2nd-person Jews of Yathrib who are again said to have committed the wrongs done by their ancestors.

This grammatical back and forth probably created not only confusion among the Jews, but also concern, as it appeared that God's criticisms seemed to be aimed directly at them. Mohamed probably received a lot of push-back on this, so in what looks like an attempt to clear up any confusion, he revealed verse 2:134 and its verbatim twin 2:141, which say, "This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did".

Talk about an obvious back-pedal.

Seems reasonable.
Cue the "but you can't speak Classical Arabic" defence.

 

[KWED]

If those people indeed were the same kind of people who lived in past ages, it is correct to accuse them of the same things the past people did.

What do you mean by "same kind of people"?
Accusing them can only be justified if they have committed the same acts.

“Already have Apostles before me come to you with sure testimonies, and with that of which ye speak. Wherefore slew ye them? Tell me, if ye are men of truth" Qur’án 3:182
Muhammad is accusing people of His time of killing Messengers, though they did not kill any Measengers. But, it is a fair statement, when we consider these people actually plotted to kill Muhammad. So, they are the same kind of people.

So the Quran was written by Muhammad, not Allah?

 

[stevecanuck]

I didn't say, I take it literal. Did I?
I said this is what the verse says. And clearly this is what the verse says. How you would interpret it is another story.

But the whole thing goes together. In the language of Quran, Allah has resurrected the past people, and they had come to this world again. He then says to them why you killed the Messengers.

Just to be clear - you are claiming the Jews to whom Mohamed was speaking starting with verse 2:40 have been resurrected and are actually the SAME PEOPLE from the time of Moses. Right?

So, also Quran says the resurrection happens in the future.

Errmmmm, do you not know that the frequent promises of resurrection are referring to Judgement Day and that said resurrections are for the purpose of assigning people to either heaven or hell?

 

[Link]

Just to be clear - you are claiming the Jews to whom Mohamed was speaking starting with verse 2:40 have been resurrected and are actually the SAME PEOPLE from the time of Moses. Right?

So, also Quran says the resurrection happens in the future.

Errmmmm, do you not know that the frequent promises of resurrection are referring to Judgement Day and that said resurrections are for the purpose of assigning people to either heaven or hell?

He knows this, but is obtuse, similar to how you guys are obtuse.

 

[stevecanuck]

That does not say "Jews of Yathrib"!



What does Fakhruddin ar razy say?

You need a new schtick. Your material is stale.

 

[KWED]

All of this heart of the universe etc etc are just made up. Made up.

It always makes me feel warm and fuzzy when religionists accuse different religionists of believing made-up stuff.

And don't try to teach people languages you have not even a kindergarten child's level of knowledge.

And there it is.

 

[firedragon]

You need a new schtick. Your material is stale.

So you claimed that all scholars say one thing, but you don't know what this scholar said so you have to just say some nonsense and avoid the fact that you just made up a bogus claim.

So let me ask you about another mufassireen.

Tell me. Since you claimed about "all mufassireen and all scholars", what does the Thafsee al manar say?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Just to be clear - you are claiming the Jews to whom Mohamed was speaking starting with verse 2:40 have been resurrected and are actually the SAME PEOPLE from the time of Moses. Right?

Yes. I am saying, Though it may not be easy to see, The theme of the Quran, is, in reality there is only one Messenger of God, with the same companions, and the same enemies. In each Age, they all are resurrected again and again. Muhammad is the resurrection of Jesus, Moses, and all other Prophets. His companions are the same companions of other Messengers. And His enemies likewise the same enemies that appeared in passed ages.

All of them, now resurrected in a new Age. So, this Messenger is dealing with the same people of past ages, who now have returned one more time in a new Age.
This is the theme and a SYMBOLIC story, which is a spiritual Reality, not a literal, and physical fact. It is a story. A beautiful scenario!

See these Hadithes from Shia Sources so, the matter becomes more clear to you:

Imam Ali said: “A thousand Fáṭimihs I have espoused, all of whom were the daughters of Muḥammad, Son of ‘Abdu’lláh,
the ‘Seal of the Prophets’”

Likewise, Imam Ḥusayn, son of ‘Alí, addressing Salmán, spoke words such as these: “I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father.”

“I have fought one thousand battles in the path of God, the least and most insignificant of which was like the battle of Khaybar, in which battle my father fought and contended against the infidels.”

Errmmmm, do you not know that the frequent promises of resurrection are referring to Judgement Day and that said resurrections are for the purpose of assigning people to either heaven or hell?

Of course I am aware of that.
The resurrection or Judgement Day are the same. It is a Day, that happens from Age to Age. Everytime, a Messenger of God appears, is the Day of Judgement, those who recognize and believe, they are counted as the inhabitants of Heaven and those who disbelieve and reject, they are determined as the inhabitants of Hell. The Hell and Heaven is determined through the response of people to the call of a Messenger of God, in a given Age.
I hope it is more clear now.

 

[Link]

This thread is looking a particular verse in context of many verses addressing children of Israel as a people of history going back to Moses' time even before the exodus. And I tried to show why language allows this, and why the verse which addresses just the generation of that time, is used to clarify, that God is not burdening them with past people sins, but rather there is a different motive (Already explained in my first post in this thread).

How this becomes a dialogue about day of judgment and Bahai interpretation of it, just shows a lot about how desperate people are because they lack evidence and only know how to twist language and take phrases way of out context and language norms and rules.

@InvestigateTruth why does every thread have to be Bahaism, and you go that route?

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes. I am saying, Though it may not be easy to see, The theme of the Quran, is, in reality there is only one Messenger of God, with the same companions, and the same enemies. In each Age, they all are resurrected again and again. Muhammad is the resurrection of Jesus, Moses, and all other Prophets. His companions are the same companions of other Messengers. And His enemies likewise the same enemies that appeared in passed ages.

Wow, you just made up your own religion. What's it called?

All of them, now resurrected in a new Age. So, this Messenger is dealing with the same people of past ages, who now have returned one more time in a new Age.

Then who is Allah referring to in 2:134 and 2:141 when he says, "This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did"?

That clearly indicated he's talking about different people.

Of course I am aware of that.
The resurrection or Judgement Day are the same. It is a Day, that happens from Age to Age. Everytime, a Messenger of God appears, is the Day of Judgement, those who recognize and believe, they are counted as the inhabitants of Heaven and those who disbelieve and reject, they are determined as the inhabitants of Hell. The Hell and Heaven is determined through the response of people to the call of a Messenger of God, in a given Age.
I hope it is more clear now.

Nope. But, I'll let your fellow religionists call you on that one.

 

[stevecanuck]

So you claimed that all scholars say one thing, but you don't know what this scholar said so you have to just say some nonsense and avoid the fact that you just made up a bogus claim.

So let me ask you about another mufassireen.

Tell me. Since you claimed about "all mufassireen and all scholars", what does the Thafsee al manar say?

Here is quote from Hallucinations 3:56 - "And Deflection One begat Deflection Two. The breather of fire saw it and said it was good".

Let's play your game this time and forget my claim that he was talking to the Jews of Yathrib. Let's simply say he was talking to Jews (I don't see how you can pretend that's not true, but I do expect you to try). Now, how does that change anything I've said regarding the mixing of the past with the present?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Wow, you just made up your own religion. What's it called?



Then who is Allah referring to in 2:134 and 2:141 when he says, "This is a people that have passed away; they shall have what they earned and you shall have what you earn, and you shall not be called upon to answer for what they did"?

That clearly indicated he's talking about different people.




Nope. But, I'll let your fellow religionists call you on that one.

Everything I said, was supported by the verses of Quran and recorded Hadithes!

We just need to read the Book carefully and think about it then we see it there.

Here is another verse that makes it even more clear;

"And it is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds, and We drive them to a dead land and give life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness. Thus is the resurrection." 35:9

What does it mean Allah quickens the earth after its death? It is talking about Spring time. At the end of a season, all grass, trees, flowers, weeds... die. Then in Spring time they are revived. This the how Resurrection is!.
We need to ask ourselves, is Spring only once, or it is repeated in every cycle?
Yes, correct. It is repeated in every cycle. So, is Resurrection.
Now, here is another question.
When Spring comes, the grass, flowers, weed return back to life, and these are the same grass and flowers of the Last year, though if we speak about their particles, they are now the same particles, nonetheless we say, these are the same grass that have come back again. So, is the Resurrection. Muhammad, His companions and His enemies are not the same particles that existed 3000 years before them, but in reality they are the return of the same beings. I hope now, it is more clear to you.

 

[Link]

Here is quote from Hallucinations 3:56 - "And Deflection One begat Deflection Two. The breather of fire saw it and said it was good".

Let's play your game this time and forget my claim that he was talking to the Jews of Yathrib. Let's simply say he was talking to Jews (I don't see how you can pretend that's not true, but I do expect you to try). Now, how does that change anything I've said regarding the mixing of the past with the present?

You made a claim. You don't know majority Tafsirs, let alone all, to make that claim. He called you out. Stop talking as if an expert.

 

[stevecanuck]

You made a claim. You don't know majority Tafsirs, let alone all, to make that claim. He called you out. Stop talking as if an expert.

I'm separating the necessary from the unnecessary. Whether the Jews he was talking to were from Yathrib or not is irrelevant. The point, which this entire string of deflections is trying to derail, is that he was accusing current-day Jews of events that occurred in the time of Moses, and then had to walk it all back.

 

[Link]

I'm separating the necessary from the unnecessary. Whether the Jews he was talking to were from Yathrib or not is irrelevant. The point, which this entire string of deflections is trying to derail, is that he was accusing current-day Jews of events that occurred in the time of Moses, and then had to walk it all back.

You are repeating something that has been explained and answered but you don't make attempt to understand.

 

[stevecanuck]

You made a claim. You don't know majority Tafsirs, let alone all, to make that claim. He called you out. Stop talking as if an expert.

If he was not talking to the Jews of Yathrib, please show to whom he was speaking.

 

[Link]

If he was not talking to the Jews of Yathrib, please show to whom he was speaking.

I already explained to you. So what's the point of repeating what I already explained? I will bring instead analogies of this type of speech found through writing and expressions everywhere (in normal day, in literature, in history etc).

 

[stevecanuck]

I already explained to you. So what's the point of repeating what I already explained? I will bring instead analogies of this type of speech found through writing and expressions everywhere (in normal day, in literature, in history etc).

No need to repeat yourself, just give me a post number and I'll reread it. I find some of your posts difficult to read.