Mohammad in the Bible...

[Harel13]

How? He was a mighty messenger of Allah? Why different? What's different? (just curious)

Who, Moses?
I'm not sure I would be able to do this subject justice this late at night, so perhaps @rosends or another Jewish member could take over afterwards. But in short, the Jewish views of our important figures are very complex. We both hold them in very high regard but also criticize them. Criticism where criticism is due. Because from that criticism we can learn important lessons ourselves. And we also blend in humor, on occasion. When it's done in moderation and properly and out of awareness of the greatness of all of these people, it's okay, I guess.

 

[Harel13]

Moshe nichnas Adar, marbin b'simcha, I always say.

Nice!

 

[MyM]

Who, Moses?
I'm not sure I would be able to do this subject justice this late at night, so perhaps @rosends or another Jewish member could take over afterwards. But in short, the Jewish views of our important figures are very complex. We both hold them in very high regard but also criticize them. Criticism where criticism is due. Because from that criticism we can learn important lessons ourselves. And we also blend in humor, on occasion. When it's done in moderation and properly and out of awareness of the greatness of all of these people, it's okay, I guess.

wow that is different. In Islam, we take EVERY messenger and prophet as an authoritive figure. We do not make fun or criticize any messenger of Allah. (peace and blessings be upon them all) We have a sense of humor but never towards any prophet/messenger that Allah has chosen. That would be disrespecting them.

 

[firedragon]

So, why Allah didn't want the Gospel and Torah be written as Books

Why should he, why not, why should he ever do anything at all.

When you cant answer questions on your own bogus assertions you question God himself. Just like an atheist. Its a usual resort to people who make baseless "pseudo scholarly" claims. Ultimately, when you make absolutely baseless claims, you have no other response but to question God himself as if you have no understanding what GOd is.

This is the problem of your false claims.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not affected

Then try not to answer for other people.

 

[Harel13]

wow that is different. In Islam, we take EVERY messenger and prophet as an authoritive figure. We do not make fun or criticize any messenger of Allah. (peace and blessings be upon them all) We have a sense of humor but never towards any prophet/messenger that Allah has chosen. That would be disrespecting them.

Yeah, I know. In general, there many differences between Judaism and Islam. Anecdotally, a rabbi whose classes I attend weekly told us once that there was a time in which he was part of a Jewish-Muslim study group. They met like once a month or something like that, and alternated between studying Jewish material and Islamic material. He said that when they studied Jewish stuff, all of the rabbis would break out in heated debated, and after some of that, they ended with a satisfactory "agree to disagree". But then he was shocked with the study of Islamic material: the Muslims didn't argue. Whenever there was some question or issue, they simply turned to the oldest and wisest of the teachers in the group, and he said the final word on the subject. And that was that.

 

[firedragon]

Ok Muhammed Moses etc are mentioned in the Quran but not in the Bible or Hebrew Bible,i went to a church of England school and religious studies was part of the curriculum and i actually found interesting but the reality is "the burden of proof" isn't a fallacy at all.

I understand what you say. The fallacy is to make a claim so wide and far, but provide evidence. I understand that its not possible to do so.

But you should understand that when one makes a positive claim, you should have a methodology of making an evidential thesis.

Or just say "I dont believe it until you provide evidence".

Hope you understand.

 

[England my lionheart]

I understand what you say. The fallacy is to make a claim so wide and far, but provide evidence. I understand that its not possible to do so.

But you should understand that when one makes a positive claim, you should have a methodology of making an evidential thesis.

Or just say "I dont believe it until you provide evidence".

Hope you understand.

Ok i don't believe it until anyone provides the evidence.

 

[rosends]

Then try not to answer for other people.

I'm not answering FOR other people. I am asking for clarification in order to understand. If you want a private conversation then maybe an open forum isn't the right fit for you.

 

[MyM]

Yeah, I know. In general, there many differences between Judaism and Islam. Anecdotally, a rabbi whose classes I attend weekly told us once that there was a time in which he was part of a Jewish-Muslim study group. They met like once a month or something like that, and alternated between studying Jewish material and Islamic material. He said that when they studied Jewish stuff, all of the rabbis would break out in heated debated, and after some of that, they ended with a satisfactory "agree to disagree". But then he was shocked with the study of Islamic material: the Muslims didn't argue. Whenever there was some question or issue, they simply turned to the oldest and wisest of the teachers in the group, and he said the final word on the subject. And that was that.

It's nice when people can have a good dialogue. It is beneficial for both sides. They each learn about each other and their religion. Respect can go a long way even if you disagree. Doesn't mean to hate.

 

[Harel13]

It's nice when people can have a good dialogue. It is beneficial for both sides. They each learn about each other and their religion. Respect can go a long way even if you disagree. Doesn't mean to hate.

True, but not the point of the anecdote. Nor was it the point when the rabbi brought it (i.e., he didn't bring it as evidence of dialog).

 

[Link]

I'm pleased it is clear to you. It's as clear as mud to me and most other rational people.

Dark magic occurs to holy books to decontextualize his words from each other. The way to defeat that is to contextualize and analyze so as to make a holistic approach, that nothing God says is unimportant and signify all his words. Easy to say twelve princes is the exact number of twelve sons of Ismail and do away with that prophecy by saying it's his sons, but if you keep in mind how Kingship of Abraham is discussed and the true authority of God in the Torah vested in his chosen, then it's not about the twelve sons, but really predicting a king from offspring of Ismail who authority will extend by twelve others who inherit his authority. Of course the number of his sons was made to be exactly the number of the successors of Mohammad (s) but that was to keep intact the prophecy. It's clear "the one who you will send" is one of these people from Ismail descendants, and God told Moses about Aaron because he wants him to think of the present moment and think how to enlighten society now, that's why he got angry with him and told him you have Aaron. And having a Prophet like Moses means there has to be someone like an Aaron and his successors as well.

You shouldn't make insignificant any of God's words. This the problem with Muslims with Quran as well. They try to make certain words insignificant where it does not suit their desires.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, why Allah didn't want the Gospel and Torah be written as Books, as it was revealed to Moses and Jesus, so, people today, can know Muhammad was truly promised before by Allah?

Why should he, why not, why should he ever do anything at all.

Why Allah should have had the Books, Torah and Gosple be written?

So, that when He says in Quran, that Muhammad was promised before by Allah, the Jews and Christians can see it by their own eyes, and stop disbelieving in Muhammad.

Here I aksed another question too, if you can address it please:

Then please explain to me this claim of the Quran:


"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful."
7:157

You are always good at textual criticism. So, please tell me, what does it mean "whom they can find"
It doesn't mean what it says?

 

[Altfish]

Dark magic occurs to holy books to decontextualize his words from each other. The way to defeat that is to contextualize and analyze so as to make a holistic approach, that nothing God says is unimportant and signify all his words. Easy to say twelve princes is the exact number of twelve sons of Ismail and do away with that prophecy by saying it's his sons, but if you keep in mind how Kingship of Abraham is discussed and the true authority of God in the Torah vested in his chosen, then it's not about the twelve sons, but really predicting a king from offspring of Ismail who authority will extend by twelve others who inherit his authority. Of course the number of his sons was made to be exactly the number of the successors of Mohammad (s) but that was to keep intact the prophecy. It's clear "the one who you will send" is one of these people from Ismail descendants, and God told Moses about Aaron because he wants him to think of the present moment and think how to enlighten society now, that's why he got angry with him and told him you have Aaron. And having a Prophet like Moses means there has to be someone like an Aaron and his successors as well.

You shouldn't make insignificant any of God's words. This the problem with Muslims with Quran as well. They try to make certain words insignificant where it does not suit their desires.

The trouble is, I don't believe a god exists, so they are NOT god's words in my world. They are just ancient writings by mere humans

 

[firedragon]

Ok i don't believe it until anyone provides the evidence.

Great.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not answering FOR other people. I am asking for clarification in order to understand. If you want a private conversation then maybe an open forum isn't the right fit for you.

Please complain to the Admins that Firedragon should be restricted to a private chat.

 

[firedragon]

Why Allah should have had the Books, Torah and Gosple be written?

So, that when He says in Quran, that Muhammad was promised before by Allah, the Jews and Christians can see it by their own eyes, and stop disbelieving in Muhammad.

So basically you are far superior in knowledge and ilme ghaib than God right?

Nice.

 

[firedragon]

Then please explain to me this claim of the Quran:


"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful."
7:157

You are always good at textual criticism. So, please tell me, what does it mean "whom they can find"
It doesn't mean what it says?

It doesn't say anywhere that these accounts were "written down in a book". Never.

If you want exegesis of the Quran and your cherry picked verses, lets have another discussion on exegesis. Open a new thread.

But when you make claims, prove it. Show the verse and explicit statements.

 

[stevecanuck]

It is interesting to find many things if one knows how to read and understand the Hebrew Text. Also, in the Greek text as well for many parts of the Bible are from translated Hebrew and Greek Texts.

Many are asked about if Mohammad pbuh is mentioned in the Bible and many say no. Here is a video explaining what I mean.

The name of Mohammad is translated to "Altogether lovely" in the Bible.

(Part 1)

(Part 2)

I'm in the bible too. Oh sure, it's spelled J-E-S-U-S, but it's pronounced "Steve".

 

[stevecanuck]

If you use smoke and mirrors and vast amounts of interpretation.

If hadn't believed it, I never would have seen it.