Mohammad's Message vs Jesus' Message

[-Peacemaker-]

they don't remain as pure as they were first told.

And that's exactly why I also mentioned the Hadith which is more comparable to the Biblical narration. But the difference being Hadith is the eyewitness account of way of life, sayings and events related to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with unbroken chain of reporters going all the way back to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) where as the story of Jesus(pbuh) in Bible is the narration of events by unknown authors centuries after the events took place.[/quote]

This actually isn't true. He's a piece of an apologetic I put together a while back:



Historical NT validity bullet points:

Bullet points of the argument:

Authorship of Gospels: Matthew the tax collector and disciple of Jesus written 70's
John Mark the companion of Peter written 80's
Luke the doctor of Paul written 80s
John the apostle written 90s (CFC pg.33)

Of pastoral letter: 40s and 50s
early church creed found in 1 Corinthians: dated, through linguistics, to within 2 years of death of Jesus

argument used against NT: It was written by people who didn't witness life of Jesus

rebuttal: All the authors were either saw it themselves, or were in a position to know eyewitnesses. All were written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses.


Supporting info: 1. The witnesses were in most cases independent of each other
2.Initial disinclination to believe they saw a resurrected Jesus
3. Physical, tangible evidence presented that he had resurrected in the body
4. accounts of resurrection divergent enough to draw charge of contradiction
5. All that is known of the apostles testifies to their integrity and honesty

bottomline: we have 5 separate accounts of JC’s life from Matt, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul. There were 500 people alleged to have seen the risen Jesus. These men claimed to work off eyewitness testimony.

This argument is basically an outline of Christian Apologetics by Norm Geisler with some material from The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel mixed it. I quoted a few websites that said conveyed the material I wanted to include in a concise and clear manner.

 

[Dingbat]

Paul is considered a legitimate testimony of Christ? The man paid by the Roman Government to kill Christians? Oh very odd. Also Matt, Mark, Luke, and John weren't people as far as anyone knows.

 

[BSM1]

1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”


Like i said read it carefully ''Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.'' so the women clearly was innocent!

Read the story again without a biased mind and keep this in mind:

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


What is your conclusion?

Although I have read this account many times I realize that I have missed a very subtle lesson. When Yeshua was writing in the dirt he wasn't just patiently waiting for someone to act, he was actually being nonjudgemental also. Yeshua supposedly was without sin and apparently knew of the woman's transgression. Even though he would have been justified in doing so, he choose not to "cast the first stone". His admonishment to the woman to "go and leave her life of sin" allowed her to be her own judge. This is something we all practice. I know this is off-subject so thanks for allowing me to interject.

 

[Falvlun]

Although I have read this account many times I realize that I have missed a very subtle lesson. When Yeshua was writing in the dirt he wasn't just patiently waiting for someone to act, he was actually being nonjudgemental also. Yeshua supposedly was without sin and apparently knew of the woman's transgression. Even though he would have been justified in doing so, he choose not to "cast the first stone". His admonishment to the woman to "go and leave her life of sin" allowed her to be her own judge. This is something we all practice. I know this is off-subject so thanks for allowing me to interject.

Wonderful point and a great lesson.

 

[Muffled]

Where doesTanakh have a prohecy of Jesus?

This is off topic. Do it in another thread.

On topic, Jesus has this as His message: John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things.
26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

[allright]

Paul is considered a legitimate testimony of Christ? The man paid by the Roman Government to kill Christians? Oh very odd. Also Matt, Mark, Luke, and John weren't people as far as anyone knows.

 

[Muffled]

I don't fail to realize any of that. In fact, that's what I have been trying to tell the Christians all along - that you cannot claim that the entire Bible is from God; so don't even compare the message in the Bible to the message in the Qur'an (which is entirely verbatim word of God).

I believe this may be construed as such by Muslims but the truth is that only those passages that begin with "Say" are apt to be from Gabriel. Anything else is more apt to be Mohammed hearing God directly. That is certainly intimated in the text.

Of course we can claim it but that does not mean that everything is the word of God. When the scribes wrote Chronicles it was from a godly perspective but it was still history. Solomon when writing Proverbs was writing wisdom and God is only the source because He gave Solomon wisdom. However the message of Jesus is that He is God in the flesh and therefore all His words are the words of God.

 

[Muffled]

Paul is considered a legitimate testimony of Christ? The man paid by the Roman Government to kill Christians? Oh very odd. Also Matt, Mark, Luke, and John weren't people as far as anyone knows.

I believe Paul went through a conversion in which He received the Paraclete and therefore was able to speak and write the word of God.

So I guess we don't know if Mohammed was a person or not? I don't believe there is enough evidence to say that the writers were not people.

 

[seeking4truth]

I believe Paul went through a conversion in which He received the Paraclete and therefore was able to speak and write the word of God..

The Bible says that Saul met Jesus. He accepted the message of Jesus ie. converted, and then went to 'Arabia' to be trained and instructed in the teachings of the community of Jesus. After that Paul became a missionary.

Later Paul was recalled to the centre of the community to answer questions about what he had been teaching and to whom. He was not the senior authority of the community in that area.

 

[Dingbat]

I believe Paul went through a conversion in which He received the Paraclete and therefore was able to speak and write the word of God.

So I guess we don't know if Mohammed was a person or not? I don't believe there is enough evidence to say that the writers were not people.

There was a Mohammed that has been confirmed by writings from others in Arabia. There are no confirmations of anyone called Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. I don't see how one could logically compare the two. Biblical scholars even acknowledge that they are not entirely sure where the Gospel manuscripts come from and who authored them entirely.

Paul claimed to have gone through a conversion but I find it odd he ends up back in the land of his masters with very little interaction with the rest of Christendom.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

One of the biggest differences between the two messages is that Jesus' message was actually an AUDIBLE one in that that thousands of people would've been able to hear it. No one heard the message Mohammed claimed to have heard except Mohammed. Keep in mind that in the Christian story Jesus is playing the role that Gabriel is said to play in the Muslim story. In the Muslim story, the being claiming to be the angel Gabriel is claiming to be the middle man between Mohammed and God. That is the role that we believe Jesus plays between God the father and man.

 

[loverOfTruth]

One of the biggest differences between the two messages is that Jesus' message was actually an AUDIBLE one in that that thousands of people would've been able to hear it. No one heard the message Mohammed claimed to have heard except Mohammed. Keep in mind that in the Christian story Jesus is playing the role that Gabriel is said to play in the Muslim story. In the Muslim story, the being claiming to be the angel Gabriel is claiming to be the middle man between Mohammed and God. That is the role that we believe Jesus plays between God the father and man.

Once again that is the biggest joke ('audible'). Did you hear it ? Oh I see - some people did, right ? How do you know ? Oh wait, through some anonymous authors who never met Jesus(pbuh) and told you so - who supposedly recorded events centuries after the supposed events have occurred. And we are back to square one. And by the way, even the originals of what those anonymous authors wrote doesn't exist anymore - its just copies of copies of copies of translations ... Sorry

And once again remember we have Two messages -the Qur'an and the Hadith.

The Hadith is essentially the more authentic version of your 'audible' accounts of events. How do I know ? Because people who told me heard from people who eventually knew Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and saw him/heard him/lived with him and then passed it down with an unbroken chain of narration and the chains and authenticity of the reporters are vetted rigorously.

On the other hand, you don't even have the privilege of something similar to the Qur'an, the verbatim word of God, which was all written down at the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and then passed down generations after generations unaltered.

So no, Jesus(pbuh) is not playing the part of Gabriel - they are separate.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Once again that is the biggest joke ('audible'). Did you hear it ? Oh I see - some people did, right ? How do you know ? Oh wait, through some anonymous authors who never met Jesus(pbuh) and told you so - who supposedly recorded events centuries after the supposed events have occurred. And we are back to square one. And by the way, even the originals of what those anonymous authors wrote doesn't exist anymore - its just copies of copies of copies of translations ... Sorry
.

We can play this game about any person in history. No one is alive who can personally testify to what Abe Lincoln said. All we have are written records. We have multiple INDEPENDANT witnesses to the life and teachings of Jesus. We can't say that about the angel claiming to be Gabriel

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Also, I'm not disputing any claims about the Hadith, mainly because I don't know enough about them. I've heard that the chronicle Mohammed's life. My question is "what implications do the events of his life (apart from his supposed revelation) really have on the lives of Muslims?" For Chistians, we are saved by Jesus' death and resurrection. If those events didn't occur, we don't be believe salvation is possible as it would mean that he didn't actually pay the price of the sins of the world. We have more information left behind by history about Jesus than just about anyone else in the ancient world.

 

[loverOfTruth]

We can play this game about any person in history. No one is alive who can personally testify to what Abe Lincoln said. All we have are written records. We have multiple INDEPENDANT witnesses to the life and teachings of Jesus. We can't say that about the angel claiming to be Gabriel

Not really - it would be really good if the multiple independent accounts of Jesus'(pbuh) life was always consistent/non-contradictory and with an unbroken chain of narration all the way to Jesus(pbuh). Unfortunately, we don't have that. And some of those accounts are copies from other sources.

As I have stated the stories in Bible related to Angel Gabirel is no different than the stories in the Qur'an revealed from God to Gabriel to Muhammad(pbuh). If you deny the latter, you have to deny stories related to Jesus'(pbuh) birth when Gabriel comes to Mary(pbuh). On top of that we can muliple independent eyewitness account of Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) life and teachings with an unbroken chain of narration going back to him - that's where the historical authenticity of the accounts comes into play.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Also, I'm not disputing any claims about the Hadith, mainly because I don't know enough about them. I've heard that the chronicle Mohammed's life. My question is "what implications do the events of his life (apart from his supposed revelation) really have on the lives of Muslims?" For Christians, we are saved by Jesus' death and resurrection. If those events didn't occur, we don't be believe salvation is possible as it would mean that he didn't actually pay the price of the sins of the world. We have more information left behind by history about Jesus than just about anyone else in the ancient world.

May be it will help if I give you some information on Hadith. A hadith is a saying of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) or a report about something he did.
"Prophet Muhammad’s life is intrinsically documented through the compilation of Hadith... From the way he ate to the way he slept; from how he treated his family members to his staunchest enemies; from the way he worshipped to the way he taught his followers – Muslims will learn exactly how Islam should be practiced in light of the Quran, the ultimate source of knowledge for all believers." [1]

Testification of Faith for the Muslims is : "La Ilaha Ill Allah Muhammadur Rasool Allah" (There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) . Not to mention that as stated in the Holy Qur'an, we are supposed to follow Allah and His messenger(pbuh) both : "Say,'Obey Allah and His Messenger': But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." (Al-Qur'an 3:32).
How do you Obey the Messenger(pbuh) without knowing what He asked you to do ?

The fact is the Islamic theology including explanations of the Qur'anic verses are captured in Hadith. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the best embodiment of the Quran. His wife Aisha once described him as the walking Quran, as he lived his life in full devotion of the principles of the Qur'an, out of his love for God [1]. To understand and to live a life according to the Qur'an a Muslim must study and understand the life of the Prophet(pbuh) and his teachings. So the Qur'an and the Hadith are inseparable and intertwined. So the implications of the events and teachings from the life of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is immense on the life of any Muslim. Hope this clarifies.

Not to mention that events related to crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus(pbuh) are much debated from a historical point of view including different beliefs among the early Christians on these matters let alone the 'salvation'. But perhaps that is best left for another thread.

[1]http://www.onislam.net/english/reading-islam/living-islam/first-steps/450719-the-ultimate-source-of-knowledge.html

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Not really - it would be really good if the multiple independent accounts of Jesus'(pbuh) life was always consistent/non-contradictory and with an unbroken chain of narration all the way to Jesus(pbuh). Unfortunately, we don't have that. And some of those accounts are copies from other sources.

As I have stated the stories in Bible related to Angel Gabirel is no different than the stories in the Qur'an revealed from God to Gabriel to Muhammad(pbuh). If you deny the latter, you have to deny stories related to Jesus'(pbuh) birth when Gabriel comes to Mary(pbuh). On top of that we can muliple independent eyewitness account of Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) life and teachings with an unbroken chain of narration going back to him - that's where the historical authenticity of the accounts comes into play.

The interesting thing is that the accounts are divergent enough to suggest that they were indeed independent instead of the product of a conspiracy. If each of them were exactly the same it would suggest that they were from the same source.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

other sources.

As I have stated the stories in Bible related to Angel Gabirel is no different than the stories in the Qur'an revealed from God to Gabriel to Muhammad(pbuh). If you deny the latter, you have to deny stories related to Jesus'(pbuh) birth when Gabriel comes to Mary(pbuh). On top of that we can muliple independent eyewitness account of Prophet Muhammad's(pbuh) life and teachings with an unbroken chain of narration going back to him - that's where the historical authenticity of the accounts comes into play.

As I said before, in the Biblical story Gabriel delivered a prophecy and then the prophecy came to pass. It was CONFIRMED. In the case of the Koran we have an angel claiming to be Gabriel coming 600 YEARS after the life of Jesus to inform us how it supposedly really happened. Attempting to compare these two prophecies is ridiculous.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The interesting thing is that the accounts are divergent enough to suggest that they were indeed independent instead of the product of a conspiracy. If each of them were exactly the same it would suggest that they were from the same source.

I did not suggest any 'conspiracy theory' at all. All I am saying is that they are not as authentic as the original since they were not preserved and so not passed on well generations after generations. Hence, at least some of it got changed. Therefore, as it stands now, no one really knows which part is from God and hence the Truth and which one is not.

 

[loverOfTruth]

As I said before, in the Biblical story Gabriel delivered a prophecy and then the prophecy came to pass. It was CONFIRMED. In the case of the Koran we have an angel claiming to be Gabriel coming 600 YEARS after the life of Jesus to inform us how it supposedly really happened. Attempting to compare these two prophecies is ridiculous.

Let's see how you claim that to be a Prophecy... a story about Jesus'(pbuh) birth written about a century after his birth - nice fulfillment of prophecy . Unless you have proof that was written before Jesus(pbuh)'s birth and passed down from there on, you can't claim that to be a prophecy.

Not to mention that God can send angel Gabriel to Nazareth to communicate with Mary(pbuh) but not to Arabia to communicate with Muhammad(pbuh) - very interesting. Once again no prophecy confirmation here, since it was written after the events according to historical records.

Please tell me how you know about the story of Adam/Eve, Abraham, Flood of Noah etc. Or do you not believe them to be true at all ? Not to mention that evidences for Qur'an being divine are numerous as discussed in the following thread : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/129347-there-any-evidence-truth-islam.html