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Mohammad's Message vs Jesus' Message

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Let's see how you claim that to be a Prophecy... a story about Jesus'(pbuh) birth written about a century after his birth - nice fulfillment of prophecy . Unless you have proof that was written before Jesus(pbuh)'s birth and passed down from there on, you can't claim that to be a prophecy. :facepalm:

Not to mention that God can send angel Gabriel to Nazareth to communicate with Mary(pbuh) but not to Arabia to communicate with Muhammad(pbuh) - very interesting. Once again no prophecy confirmation here, since it was written after the events according to historical records.

Please tell me how you know about the story of Adam/Eve, Abraham, Flood of Noah etc. Or do you not believe them to be true at all ? Not to mention that evidences for Qur'an being divine are numerous as discussed in the following thread : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/129347-there-any-evidence-truth-islam.html

If nothing else, a story that was transmitted in an oral culture and then finally written down a few decades after it allegedly happened (within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses) seems to have a higher chance of being authentic than something 600 years after the event with only the testimony of an angel claiming to be Gabriel
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
If nothing else, a story that was transmitted in an oral culture and then finally written down a few decades after it allegedly happened (within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses) seems to have a higher chance of being authentic than something 600 years after the event with only the testimony of an angel claiming to be Gabriel

Please tell me how you know about the story of Adam/Eve, Abraham, Flood of Noah etc. Or do you not believe them to be true at all ?
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Hahahhaa......now you run away ... you might wanna look into something called 'revelation' ;) or you risk not believing in a big chunk of the Bible.

Are you kidding me? We're talking about historical events that we actually have a record of as in people actually witnessed them and then communicated what they saw. It would be nice if history left us enough evidence to confirm the story of Adam and Eve or some of the older Old Testament stories. In the absence of any evidence that disputes those events I'll take them on faith. Fortunately, the life of Jesus wasn't so long ago and so isolated so that we are left without any record of it.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Are you kidding me? We're talking about historical events that we actually have a record of as in people actually witnessed them and then communicated what they saw. It would be nice if history left us enough evidence to confirm the story of Adam and Eve or some of the older Old Testament stories. In the absence of any evidence that disputes those events I'll take them on faith. Fortunately, the life of Jesus wasn't so long ago and so isolated so that we are left without any record of it.

Except that there were enough gaps between those who witnessed the events and those who reported/communicated them that in between, some of the stories got altered and events communicated are no longer the events that occurred. That's why God sent revelation just like He did before to tell the stories of the past through other Messengers of God to communicate the correct version of events, once and for all.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Except that there were enough gaps between those who witnessed the events and those who reported/communicated them that in between, some of the stories got altered and events communicated are no longer the events that occurred. That's why God sent revelation just like He did before to tell the stories of the past through other Messengers of God to communicate the correct version of events, once and for all.

In my studies of the historical reliability of the New Testament few facts have astonished me more than a comparison of it to other works of antiquity. Here's another piece of that apologetic I pieced together which addresses exactly what you're talking about:


"Argument against NT: legendary material would've crept in between the time event occurred and the time of recording

Rebuttal: We can't appreciate the value of faithful transmission of stories in an oral culture. Rabbis would commit the entire OT to memory

Supporting info: names attributed to the authors aren't the "big" names other than John. Matthew was a tax collector (hated by his community), Mark was Peter's scribe, and Luke was the doctor of Paul. Most writings of legend were attributed to people with flashier names like Mary or Peter.

Of interest: The two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than 400 years after Alexander’s death in 323 B.C. yet historians generally consider them trustworthy. Only centuries after these writers did legendary material begin to develop. ( CFC Pg. 33)

Argument against NT: no existing copies are left

rebuttal: we have existing copies from a couple generations of the event. This is in stark contrast to many other ancient documents in which sometimes 10 centuries will pass.


More evidence: we have around 24000 ancient copies of the NT in existence, more than 5,300 in Greek. Contrast that to the Illiad which has about 650 ancient copies existing

Author: Date Written / Earliest Copy / Number of Copies / Accuracy of Copies
Caesar: 1st C. B.C. / 900 A.D. / 10 / ?
Livy: 1st C. B.C. / ? / 20 / ?
Tacitus: C. 100 A.D. / 1100 A.D. / 20 / ?
Thuycdides: 5th C. B.C. / 900 A.D. / 8 / ?
Heroditus: 5th C. B.C. / 900 A.D. / 8 / ?
Demosthenes: 4th C. B.C. / 1100 A.D. / 200 / ?
Homer: 9th C. B.C. / ? / 643 / 95%
NT: 50-100 A.D. / 2nd C A.D. / 5000 / 99.5% (CA pg. 307)"

 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
The bottom line is that the Gospels do not bear the earmarks of a document contaminated by legendary material unless one's worldview is fixed to naturalism. Also, a 40 year gap between when the events occured and when they were recorded on paper is basically nonexistent compared to other biographies of the ancient world considered reliable, many of which have 5 and 10 centuries between the events of the person's life and when they were recorded. I've even heard Muslim scholars who agree that the charge of a literal corruption of the texts doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Check out that last quote from Ibn Kathir which is supposedly a quote from Mohammed himself.

Fakhruddin Razi (1149 - 1209), was a Persian Sunni theologian.
“The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation.”

Al-Razi (865 – 925) One of the most famous Muslim scholars, called "the Imam of Muslim Imams".
“How could there be any alteration in the Book whose words' sharpness has reached a great level of circulation in the East and in the West? … For no change can occur in a book that is well circulated among men. Every wise man can see that the alteration of the Bible was impossible for it was well circulated among men of different faith and backgrounds.” [3]

Muhammad 'Abduh (1849 - 1905), was an Egyptian jurist and religious scholar
“... the charge of corruption of the Biblical texts makes no sense at all. It would not have been possible for Jews and Christians everywhere to agree on changing the text. Even if those in Arabia had done it, the difference between their book and those of their brothers, let us say in Syria and Europe, would have been obvious...We believe that these Gospel accounts are the true Gospel."[9]

Prof. Abdullah Saeed, PhD
A significant point of tension between today’s Muslims and the ‘People of the Book’ (Jews and Christians) is the common Muslim belief that the Jewish and Christian scriptures that exist today are corrupted and cannot be relied upon in any matters of faith, religion or law. Although this is a popular view, most classical scholars of the Qur’an were far more cautious in their understanding of Qur’anic texts on this issue. This article explores the Qur’an’s references to distortion of scriptural meaning and text, and the views of scholars, particularly Tabari, Qurtubi, Razi, Ibn Taymiyya and Qutb. Qur’anic words such as tahrif are popularly accepted today as referring to deliberate distortion of scripture; however, classical scholars have interpreted the Qur’an’s references in a number of different ways.Almost all suggested that distortion occurred mainly through interpretation and not in the text itself. Although the Qur’an refers to tahrif (distortion), it also exhibits the utmost respect for previous scriptures. Early Muslims adopted a narrow view of scripture, partly because of the nature of the Qur’an, and also in response to the more established religions of Judaism and Christianity, to assert the ‘purity’ of the Qur’an and Islam. Saeed notes that the Jewish and Christian scriptures that exist today are, according to most scholars, largely unchanged since the time of Muhammad and should be respected now as they were then.[11]

Dr. Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub (born 1938), is a Muslim scholar and professor of Islamic Studies and Comparative Religion at Temple University. (USA)
“Contrary to the general Islamic view, the Qur'an does not accuse Jews and Christians of altering the text of their scriptures, but rather of altering the truth which those scriptures contain. The people do this by concealing some of the sacred texts, by misapplying their precepts, or by altering words from their right position.”[7]

“... both the Hebrew Bible and the N.T. took their final form long before the rise of Islam. The Qur'an speaks of both the Torah and the Gospel as in them is guidance and light. It calls on the two faith-communities to judge by what God had revealed in their Scriptures. It also speaks that both Jews and Christians altered words from their right places and had forgotten some of what God had revealed for them. This does not mean distorting, adding, and deleting of the Scriptures. Therefore, Qur'anic references to tahrif, or alteration, are more to interpretation rather than changing the texts.” [8]

Ibn Kathir

'David died in the midst of his friends. They were not led astray, nor changed [their books]. The Friends of Christ stayed in His ordinances and guidance for two hundred years'[10]

Quoting Muhammad talking of the Jews and Christians

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Corruption_of_Previous_Scriptures
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Something else to consider is that Islam's "evidence" of the charge of corruption, which as I've shown is disputed even in Islamic circles, is found only inside the Koran in the form of the words of the angel claiming to be Gabriel. Everything history has left behind testifies to the accuracy of the NT's transmission. Consider this Muslim's words:

Sayyid Ahmad Husayn Shawkat Mirthi
“The ordinary Muslim people acknowledge that the Injil is the Word of God. Yet they also believe through hearsay (taqlidi 'aqida) that the Injil is corrupted, even though they cannot indicate what passage was corrupted, when it was corrupted, and who corrupted it. Is there any religious community in this world whose lot is so miserable that they would shred their heavenly Book with their own hands, and then, after restlessly patching it with sackcloth, they must throw dust in the eyes of the people? True, some religious communities change the meaning (tahrif-i ma'nawi) of their Scriptures. To say that God has taken the Injil and the Tawrat into heaven and has abrogated them is to defame and slander God. It is to pour ridicule not only upon the Qur'an but upon all the Books. Abrogation always arises because of error. Laws of earthly kingdoms are abrogated because experience has proved that they are harmful. But God makes no mistake, nor does He lack experience.”


http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an...ous_Scriptures
 
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Dingbat

Avatar of Brittania
Something else to consider is that Islam's "evidence" of the charge of corruption, which as I've shown is disputed even in Islamic circles, is found only inside the Koran in the form of the words of the angel claiming to be Gabriel. Everything history has left behind testifies to the accuracy of the NT's transmission. Consider this Muslim's words:

Sayyid Ahmad Husayn Shawkat Mirthi
“The ordinary Muslim people acknowledge that the Injil is the Word of God. Yet they also believe through hearsay (taqlidi 'aqida) that the Injil is corrupted, even though they cannot indicate what passage was corrupted, when it was corrupted, and who corrupted it. Is there any religious community in this world whose lot is so miserable that they would shred their heavenly Book with their own hands, and then, after restlessly patching it with sackcloth, they must throw dust in the eyes of the people? True, some religious communities change the meaning (tahrif-i ma'nawi) of their Scriptures. To say that God has taken the Injil and the Tawrat into heaven and has abrogated them is to defame and slander God. It is to pour ridicule not only upon the Qur'an but upon all the Books. Abrogation always arises because of error. Laws of earthly kingdoms are abrogated because experience has proved that they are harmful. But God makes no mistake, nor does He lack experience.”


http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an...ous_Scriptures
Using a anti-Islamic website? Well there goes any sense of discussion. Next time just link to Stormfront to save everyone the time.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Using a anti-Islamic website? Well there goes any sense of discussion. Next time just link to Stormfront to save everyone the time.

Are these quotes incorrect or do you just object to who compiled the list?


FWIW: here's the bibliography. Are these all known liars and/or "haters" of Islam?

  1. ↑ Kitaab (the book of) Al-Tawheed, Baab(chapter) Qawlu Allah Ta'ala, Bal Huwa Qur'aanun Majeed, fi lawhin Mahfooth
  2. ↑ Imam Muhammad Isma'il al-Bukhari in Dictionary of Islam, T. P. Hughes, Kazi Publications, Inc, 3023-27 West Belmont Avenue, Chicago Il. 60618, 1994, p.62
  3. ↑ p.327 of his Third Volume
  4. ↑ Tabari, The Book of Religion and Empire, p.51
  5. ↑ M. H. Ananikian, “The Reforms and Religious Ideas of Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan”, The Moslem World 14 (1934) p.61
  6. ↑ T. P. Hughes, Dictionary of Islam, Kazi Publications, Inc, 3023-27 West Belmont Avenue, Chicago Il. 60618, 1994, p.62
  7. ↑ “Uzayr in the Qur'an and Muslim Tradition” in “Studies in Islamic and Judaic Traditions”, ed. W. M. Brenner and S. D. Ricks, The University of Denver, 1986, p.5
  8. ↑ May 15, 2008 e-mail to author.
  9. ↑ Jacques Jomier, “Jesus, The Life of the Messiah”, C. L. S., Madras, 1974, p.216
  10. ↑ Ibn Kathir, Al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya
  11. ↑ Prof. Abdullah Saeed - The Charge of Distortion of Jewish and Christian Scriptures - The Muslim World. Vol. 92, 2002
I also apologize for taking those quotes from a website that is a little inappropriate in how it presents itself. These quotes can be found at any number of apologetic websites on the subject, many of which simply present a Christian pov.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I don't want to take anybody's side.

I think the Bible is not perfectly the Words of Jesus, the way Quran is the Words of Muhammad. So, the Bible is less accurate if we are comparing which one is a more accurate representation of original teachings.

Having said that, the fact is, this does not mean at this time, the Message of Muhammad is preserved better than Jesus, even if Quran is remained perfectly.
The reason is, Muslims often understand Quran based on Hadithes and Man-made Tafseers from their own sects. They often accept only the Hadithes and Tafseers from their own sects or school of thoughts.
According to Islamic Hadithes, Muhammad said Muslims will be divided into 72 or 73 sects. And in fact there are many sects, each interprets Quran somewhat differently, So, obviously not all of the interpretations can be true. The Sunnis and Shias often don't agree on Authenticity of Hadithes. Even Sunnis do not always trust their own Hadithes, or agree, and indeed there are seen many inaccuracies in most Hadithes, which non can deny.



On the other hand, I think Muslims often are exagerating small inaccuracies in Bible in order to claim it is severly corrupted.
But we should realize, finding a few inaccuracies, does not prove corruption in the fundamental teachings as ALL Four Gospels agree on fundamental teachings.



What we can find out from History, is that, Muhammad and the early Muslims did not believe that the Text of Injil and Torah were corrupted.

The word that Quran uses in the verses, which Moslems often refer to as indication of changes to Books, is "Tahrif".
According to Moslem Scholar Amin Ahsan, there are 4 types of tahrif,
which mainly means misinterpretation, and twisting the meaning, and not changing the actual Text.

Tahrif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In fact, there are evidence that, Prophet Muhammad and early Moslems, believed that the meaning of them were twisted and misinterpreted, but not the Texts, and Quran in many verses confirms Injil and Torah, that existed at the time of Muhammad.

Upto 315 years after Muhammad, the recorded Historical evidence show that, the Muslims believed that the intention of Quran was to say that the Jews and Christians had misinterpreted the Text of their Books. For example:

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn ‘Abbas (Cousin of Muhammad) said [the Jews] alter and add although none among Allah’s creation can remove the words from His book, they alter and distort their apparent meaning” – with this Hadith it is clear that those who walked with the Prophet (PBUH) believed the text of the Torah was original, while holding the view that the Jews perverted their interpretation.


In the year 796 Abu l-Rabi Muhammad ibn al-Layth (a courtier to Kalif Harun al-Rashid ) penned a letter to Constatine VI stating that the word “tahrif” should be read as the Jews had distorted their sense. “Whoever looks in the books of the prophets will find Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned, but the people of the book have obscured these references by changing their interpretation”. Ibn al-Layth categorically denies the possibility of passages having been added to, or omitted from, the scriptures, and he then goes on to use the text of the Torah as proof of the authenticity of the Torah (a belief both he and the kalif share).

300 year after Muhammad still, Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn al-Tayyib al-Baqillani was of the opinion that the words of Moses were still extant in their Hebrew original and that the Jews had inadvertently made mistakes in their translations.


It is only in later years, that some of Moslems started to say the actual text of the injil or Torah were corrupted.
Source:
http://www.judaism-islam.com/islam-teaches-torah-is-corrupted-tahrif-but-what-does-that-mean/


For example the verse 5:41, here is the translation by Muhammad Asad correctly:


"O APOSTLE! Be not grieved by those who vie with one another in denying the truth: such as those who say with their mouths, "We believe," the while their hearts do not believe; and such of the Jewish faith as eagerly listen to any falsehood, eagerly listen to other people without having come to thee [for enlightenment]. They distort the meaning of the [revealed] words, taking them out of their context, saying [to themselves], "If such-and-such [teaching] is vouchsafed unto you, accept it; but if it is not vouchsafed unto you, be on your guard!" [Be not grieved by them-] for if God wills anyone to be tempted to evil, thou canst in no wise prevail with God in his behalf. It is they whose hearts God is not willing to cleanse. Theirs shall be ignominy in this world, and awesome suffering in the life to come-" 5:41

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/41/default.htm

The Verses that Quran revealed regarding "Tahrif" It has to do with writing certain Books and Interpretations regarding Injil or Torah, at the time of Muhammad. You would know that if you do your research as to what was the reason those verses were revealed historically.

Yes, There are verses in Quran that talk about "Modification" and alteration by the Religious Leaders. however, those refer to misinterpretations of ONLY particular cases.

One of them is concerning the penalty of adultery, when the prophet was to explain the penalty of Adultry to some Jewish leaders.
Which the Quran reveals "They distort the meaning of the [revealed] words, taking them out of their context" See Quran 4:44-46

It is clear, in that instance, by perverting the Text is meant "Misinterpretation" and "twisting" as the Torah still contains the verse that says punishment for adultery is death by stone.
Another example is: "A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." Quran 2:75
This verse, also indicates that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words in the Text of Bible are changed.

Another example,: "Woe unto those who, with their own hands, transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say: ‘This is from God,’ that they may sell it for some mean price." Quran 2:79

This verse was revealed regarding the Jewish leaders who were living at the time of Muhammad. For they had written false interpretations to refute the claims of Muhammad.

As regrads to 5:13 and 5:14, I believe this is the correct translations, by Asad:

"Then, for having broken their solemn pledge, We rejected them and caused their hearts to harden-[so that now] they distort the meaning of the [re-vealed] words, taking them out of their context; and they have forgotten much of what they had been told to bear in mind; and from all but a few of them thou wilt always experience treachery. But pardon them, and forbear: verily, God loves the doers of good."
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/13/default.htm

Thus again, Quran is saying they distorted the meaning of the Text. They forgot to follow the teachings. It does not say, the actual text was distorted.


Therefore, why wouldn't Muslims go with what Prophet Muhammad taught, and what His True Companions believed, in order to reach to original view of Islam. I think Many Muslims agree The Islam that exist today, are mere sects with many additional ideas and Tafseers that are man-made, which I think, this idea is surely another man-made addition to original Islam.

- Peace
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
In my studies of the historical reliability of the New Testament few facts have astonished me more than a comparison of it to other works of antiquity. Here's another piece of that apologetic I pieced together which addresses exactly what you're talking about:


"Argument against NT: legendary material would've crept in between the time event occurred and the time of recording

Rebuttal: We can't appreciate the value of faithful transmission of stories in an oral culture. Rabbis would commit the entire OT to memory

Supporting info: names attributed to the authors aren't the "big" names other than John. Matthew was a tax collector (hated by his community), Mark was Peter's scribe, and Luke was the doctor of Paul. Most writings of legend were attributed to people with flashier names like Mary or Peter.

Of interest: The two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than 400 years after Alexander’s death in 323 B.C. yet historians generally consider them trustworthy. Only centuries after these writers did legendary material begin to develop. ( CFC Pg. 33)

Argument against NT: no existing copies are left

rebuttal: we have existing copies from a couple generations of the event. This is in stark contrast to many other ancient documents in which sometimes 10 centuries will pass.


More evidence: we have around 24000 ancient copies of the NT in existence, more than 5,300 in Greek. Contrast that to the Illiad which has about 650 ancient copies existing

Author: Date Written / Earliest Copy / Number of Copies / Accuracy of Copies
Caesar: 1st C. B.C. / 900 A.D. / 10 / ?
Livy: 1st C. B.C. / ? / 20 / ?
Tacitus: C. 100 A.D. / 1100 A.D. / 20 / ?
Thuycdides: 5th C. B.C. / 900 A.D. / 8 / ?
Heroditus: 5th C. B.C. / 900 A.D. / 8 / ?
Demosthenes: 4th C. B.C. / 1100 A.D. / 200 / ?
Homer: 9th C. B.C. / ? / 643 / 95%
NT: 50-100 A.D. / 2nd C A.D. / 5000 / 99.5% (CA pg. 307)"


First of all, I am not sure why you are comparing the historical authenticity of the Bible to other books, we are comparing it to the Qur'an and the Hadith and it doesn't even come close to the way the Islamic scriptures were preserved.

Now to counter the information you have provided, 'number of manuscripts' doesn't really matter because - 'Although there are more manuscripts that preserve the New Testament than there are for any other ancient writing, the exact form of the text preserved in these later, numerous manuscripts may not be identical to the form of the text as it existed in antiquity.'[1]

"Through his studies, Ehrman determined that the Bible was not free of mistakes:We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently, in thousands of ways." [2]

"Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later-much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places . . . Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament." [2]

So as you can see, not only there are mistakes, contradictions and inconsistencies in the surviving copies of copies of copies of ... but there's no way to tell what was in the original and what was not. Not to mention that for any verse in the modern day NT, you cannot say this was said by Jesus(pbuh) for sure as was reported(written or oral) by X (who heard from Jesus(pbuh)) who passed on to Y who passed on to Z who passed on to us in written form. So there's no way to link the statements/events back to Jesus(pbuh) or his companions - so there's no way you can be sure. Where as we have that for the Qur'an and the Hadith.


[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

[2]http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
The bottom line is that the Gospels do not bear the earmarks of a document contaminated by legendary material unless one's worldview is fixed to naturalism. Also, a 40 year gap between when the events occured and when they were recorded on paper is basically nonexistent compared to other biographies of the ancient world considered reliable, many of which have 5 and 10 centuries between the events of the person's life and when they were recorded. I've even heard Muslim scholars who agree that the charge of a literal corruption of the texts doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Check out that last quote from Ibn Kathir which is supposedly a quote from Mohammed himself.

Fakhruddin Razi (1149 - 1209), was a Persian Sunni theologian.
“The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation.”

Al-Razi (865 – 925) One of the most famous Muslim scholars, called "the Imam of Muslim Imams".
“How could there be any alteration in the Book whose words' sharpness has reached a great level of circulation in the East and in the West? … For no change can occur in a book that is well circulated among men. Every wise man can see that the alteration of the Bible was impossible for it was well circulated among men of different faith and backgrounds.” [3]

Muhammad 'Abduh (1849 - 1905), was an Egyptian jurist and religious scholar
“... the charge of corruption of the Biblical texts makes no sense at all. It would not have been possible for Jews and Christians everywhere to agree on changing the text. Even if those in Arabia had done it, the difference between their book and those of their brothers, let us say in Syria and Europe, would have been obvious...We believe that these Gospel accounts are the true Gospel."[9]

Prof. Abdullah Saeed, PhD
A significant point of tension between today’s Muslims and the ‘People of the Book’ (Jews and Christians) is the common Muslim belief that the Jewish and Christian scriptures that exist today are corrupted and cannot be relied upon in any matters of faith, religion or law. Although this is a popular view, most classical scholars of the Qur’an were far more cautious in their understanding of Qur’anic texts on this issue. This article explores the Qur’an’s references to distortion of scriptural meaning and text, and the views of scholars, particularly Tabari, Qurtubi, Razi, Ibn Taymiyya and Qutb. Qur’anic words such as tahrif are popularly accepted today as referring to deliberate distortion of scripture; however, classical scholars have interpreted the Qur’an’s references in a number of different ways.Almost all suggested that distortion occurred mainly through interpretation and not in the text itself. Although the Qur’an refers to tahrif (distortion), it also exhibits the utmost respect for previous scriptures. Early Muslims adopted a narrow view of scripture, partly because of the nature of the Qur’an, and also in response to the more established religions of Judaism and Christianity, to assert the ‘purity’ of the Qur’an and Islam. Saeed notes that the Jewish and Christian scriptures that exist today are, according to most scholars, largely unchanged since the time of Muhammad and should be respected now as they were then.[11]

Dr. Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub (born 1938), is a Muslim scholar and professor of Islamic Studies and Comparative Religion at Temple University. (USA)
“Contrary to the general Islamic view, the Qur'an does not accuse Jews and Christians of altering the text of their scriptures, but rather of altering the truth which those scriptures contain. The people do this by concealing some of the sacred texts, by misapplying their precepts, or by altering words from their right position.”[7]

“... both the Hebrew Bible and the N.T. took their final form long before the rise of Islam. The Qur'an speaks of both the Torah and the Gospel as in them is guidance and light. It calls on the two faith-communities to judge by what God had revealed in their Scriptures. It also speaks that both Jews and Christians altered words from their right places and had forgotten some of what God had revealed for them. This does not mean distorting, adding, and deleting of the Scriptures. Therefore, Qur'anic references to tahrif, or alteration, are more to interpretation rather than changing the texts.” [8]

Ibn Kathir

'David died in the midst of his friends. They were not led astray, nor changed [their books]. The Friends of Christ stayed in His ordinances and guidance for two hundred years'[10]

Quoting Muhammad talking of the Jews and Christians

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures - WikiIslam

Something else to consider is that Islam's "evidence" of the charge of corruption, which as I've shown is disputed even in Islamic circles, is found only inside the Koran in the form of the words of the angel claiming to be Gabriel. Everything history has left behind testifies to the accuracy of the NT's transmission. Consider this Muslim's words:

Sayyid Ahmad Husayn Shawkat Mirthi
“The ordinary Muslim people acknowledge that the Injil is the Word of God. Yet they also believe through hearsay (taqlidi 'aqida) that the Injil is corrupted, even though they cannot indicate what passage was corrupted, when it was corrupted, and who corrupted it. Is there any religious community in this world whose lot is so miserable that they would shred their heavenly Book with their own hands, and then, after restlessly patching it with sackcloth, they must throw dust in the eyes of the people? True, some religious communities change the meaning (tahrif-i ma'nawi) of their Scriptures. To say that God has taken the Injil and the Tawrat into heaven and has abrogated them is to defame and slander God. It is to pour ridicule not only upon the Qur'an but upon all the Books. Abrogation always arises because of error. Laws of earthly kingdoms are abrogated because experience has proved that they are harmful. But God makes no mistake, nor does He lack experience.”


http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an...ous_Scriptures

First of all, I could only recognize 'one' of your stated so called famous Islamic scholars (ibn kathir) - others most Muslims don't even know about and some are not mainstream sunni-muslim (i.e. ismailis) and yet some you can't even find any information online about them. So I am not sure why any mainstream Muslim should consider them authentic or authoritative. And even the quote from Ibn Kathir seems quite ambiguous. It seems to mean that when David(pbuh) died the book given to him at that time was not corrupted - does not in any unambiguous way state that they were not corrupted later. Furthermore, we have clear cut proof from the authentic Hadith (see below) about the corruption of the Bible so I don't think those quotes would fly with any serious Muslims.

Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)


Can you please post the Arabic version of this Hadith?
I have noticed many times, the Translation of Hadithes are inaccurate. They add some words to it which does not exist in original Arabic.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Can you please post the Arabic version of this Hadith?
I have noticed many times, the Translation of Hadithes are inaccurate. They add some words to it which does not exist in original Arabic.


حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْيَمَانِ، أَخْبَرَنَا شُعَيْبٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، أَخْبَرَنِي عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ يَا مَعْشَرَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ كَيْفَ تَسْأَلُونَ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ عَنْ شَىْءٍ وَكِتَابُكُمُ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى نَبِيِّكُمْ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَحْدَثُ الأَخْبَارِ بِاللَّهِ مَحْضًا لَمْ يُشَبْ وَقَدْ حَدَّثَكُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ بَدَّلُوا مِنْ كُتُبِ اللَّهِ وَغَيَّرُوا فَكَتَبُوا بِأَيْدِيهِمْ، قَالُوا هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ‏.‏ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِذَلِكَ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً، أَوَ لاَ يَنْهَاكُمْ مَا جَاءَكُمْ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ عَنْ مَسْأَلَتِهِمْ، فَلاَ وَاللَّهِ مَا رَأَيْنَا رَجُلاً مِنْهُمْ يَسْأَلُكُمْ عَنِ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ‏.‏

Transl. ►Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah: `Abdullah bin `Abbas said, "O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah's Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won't the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur'an ) which has been revealed to you.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْيَمَانِ، أَخْبَرَنَا شُعَيْبٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، أَخْبَرَنِي عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ يَا مَعْشَرَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ كَيْفَ تَسْأَلُونَ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ عَنْ شَىْءٍ وَكِتَابُكُمُ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى نَبِيِّكُمْ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَحْدَثُ الأَخْبَارِ بِاللَّهِ مَحْضًا لَمْ يُشَبْ وَقَدْ حَدَّثَكُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ بَدَّلُوا مِنْ كُتُبِ اللَّهِ وَغَيَّرُوا فَكَتَبُوا بِأَيْدِيهِمْ، قَالُوا هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ‏.‏ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِذَلِكَ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً، أَوَ لاَ يَنْهَاكُمْ مَا جَاءَكُمْ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ عَنْ مَسْأَلَتِهِمْ، فَلاَ وَاللَّهِ مَا رَأَيْنَا رَجُلاً مِنْهُمْ يَسْأَلُكُمْ عَنِ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْكُمْ‏.‏

Transl. ►Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah: `Abdullah bin `Abbas said, "O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah's Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won't the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur'an ) which has been revealed to you.

Thank you for providing the quote in Arabic.

I think it is mostly fine.
The Part that says:
أَنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ بَدَّلُوا مِنْ كُتُبِ اللَّهِ وَغَيَّرُوا فَكَتَبُوا بِأَيْدِيهِمْ، قَالُوا هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ‏
"the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah's Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah"

Though it might have been more accurate if it was translated:

"the people of the Scriptures have made changes from Allah's Books and modified it and wrote with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah"

So, that could mean, they copied some parts of the Book from Injil and Torah and changed them and said this is what Allah said. But this changes were not done on The actual texts of Torah or Injil.
The Hadith does not seem to indicate that, these changes were taken on the Injil and Torah.

I think there are a few things we should consider.
When we refer to a Hadith, or a Verse of Quran, there is usually a story behind it.
We need to know the context, and why that particular verse was revealed, or to who the particular verse or Hadith is refering.
The Hadith you are refering, there is also a verse in Quran with similar words:

"So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings." Quran 2:79

The Question is: is this verse or Hadith refering to people living at the time of Muhammad, or long before Islam?

I think refering to the context of the verse, looking at a couple of verses before and after it, we see, it is addressing some of the people of the Book, who were living at the time of Muhammad:

"CAN YOU, then, hope that they will believe in what you are preaching - seeing that a good many of them were wont to listen to the word of God and then, after having understood it, to pervert it knowingly? For, when they meet those who have attained to faith. they say, "We believe [as you believe]" - but when they find themselves alone with one another, they say. "Do you inform them of what God has disclosed to you, so that they might use it in argument against you, quoting the words of your Sustainer? Will you not. then, use your reason?" Do they not know, then, that God is aware of all that they would conceal as well as of all that they bring into the open? And there are among them unlettered people who have no real knowledge of the divine writ, [following] only wishful beliefs and depending on nothing but conjecture."
Quran 2:75-78
al-Baqarah 2:75

Because, paying attention and seeing the context, and considering the grammer of the verbs, it is Not past tense. It is Present Tense. Which means, it is refering to people who were present at the time of Muhammad.
For example, considering this part of verse: "Do you inform them of what God has disclosed to you"
That is clear, it is about informing people at the time of Muhammad, not thousands of years before Islam when the Scribes were writing Bible Texts.
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Thank you for providing the quote in Arabic.

I think it is mostly fine.
The Part that says:
أَنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ بَدَّلُوا مِنْ كُتُبِ اللَّهِ وَغَيَّرُوا فَكَتَبُوا بِأَيْدِيهِمْ، قَالُوا هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ‏
"the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah's Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah"

Though it might have been more accurate if it was translated:

"the people of the Scriptures have made changes from Allah's Books and modified it and wrote with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah"

So, that could mean, they copied some parts of the Book from Injil and Torah and changed them and said this is what Allah said. But this changes were not done on The actual texts of Torah or Injil.
The Hadith does not seem to indicate that, these changes were taken on the Injil and Torah.

I think there are a few things we should consider.
When we refer to a Hadith, or a Verse of Quran, there is usually a story behind it.
We need to know the context, and why that particular verse was revealed, or to who the particular verse or Hadith is refering.
The Hadith you are refering, there is also a verse in Quran with similar words:

"So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings." Quran 2:79

The Question is: is this verse or Hadith refering to people living at the time of Muhammad, or long before Islam?

I think refering to the context of the verse, looking at a couple of verses before and after it, we see, it is addressing some of the people of the Book, who were living at the time of Muhammad:

"CAN YOU, then, hope that they will believe in what you are preaching - seeing that a good many of them were wont to listen to the word of God and then, after having understood it, to pervert it knowingly? For, when they meet those who have attained to faith. they say, "We believe [as you believe]" - but when they find themselves alone with one another, they say. "Do you inform them of what God has disclosed to you, so that they might use it in argument against you, quoting the words of your Sustainer? Will you not. then, use your reason?" Do they not know, then, that God is aware of all that they would conceal as well as of all that they bring into the open? And there are among them unlettered people who have no real knowledge of the divine writ, [following] only wishful beliefs and depending on nothing but conjecture."
Quran 2:75-78
al-Baqarah 2:75

Because, paying attention and seeing the context, and considering the grammer of the verbs, it is Not past tense. It is Present Tense. Which means, it is refering to people who were present at the time of Muhammad.
For example, considering this part of verse: "Do you inform them of what God has disclosed to you"
That is clear, it is about informing people at the time of Muhammad, not thousands of years before Islam when the Scribes were writing Bible Texts.

Really nice attempt in twisting the statements to try to fit your views :facepalm: and it still doesn't make it what you are trying to make it.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Thank you for providing the quote in Arabic.

I think it is mostly fine.
The Part that says:
أَنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ بَدَّلُوا مِنْ كُتُبِ اللَّهِ وَغَيَّرُوا فَكَتَبُوا بِأَيْدِيهِمْ، قَالُوا هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ‏
"the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah's Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah"

Though it might have been more accurate if it was translated:

"the people of the Scriptures have made changes from Allah's Books and modified it and wrote with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah"

So, that could mean, they copied some parts of the Book from Injil and Torah and changed them and said this is what Allah said. But this changes were not done on The actual texts of Torah or Injil.
The Hadith does not seem to indicate that, these changes were taken on the Injil and Torah.

I think there are a few things we should consider.
When we refer to a Hadith, or a Verse of Quran, there is usually a story behind it.
We need to know the context, and why that particular verse was revealed, or to who the particular verse or Hadith is refering.
The Hadith you are refering, there is also a verse in Quran with similar words:

"So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings." Quran 2:79

The Question is: is this verse or Hadith refering to people living at the time of Muhammad, or long before Islam?

I think refering to the context of the verse, looking at a couple of verses before and after it, we see, it is addressing some of the people of the Book, who were living at the time of Muhammad:

"CAN YOU, then, hope that they will believe in what you are preaching - seeing that a good many of them were wont to listen to the word of God and then, after having understood it, to pervert it knowingly? For, when they meet those who have attained to faith. they say, "We believe [as you believe]" - but when they find themselves alone with one another, they say. "Do you inform them of what God has disclosed to you, so that they might use it in argument against you, quoting the words of your Sustainer? Will you not. then, use your reason?" Do they not know, then, that God is aware of all that they would conceal as well as of all that they bring into the open? And there are among them unlettered people who have no real knowledge of the divine writ, [following] only wishful beliefs and depending on nothing but conjecture."
Quran 2:75-78
al-Baqarah 2:75

Because, paying attention and seeing the context, and considering the grammer of the verbs, it is Not past tense. It is Present Tense. Which means, it is refering to people who were present at the time of Muhammad.
For example, considering this part of verse: "Do you inform them of what God has disclosed to you"
That is clear, it is about informing people at the time of Muhammad, not thousands of years before Islam when the Scribes were writing Bible Texts.

What ?

OldLadyShocked-300x293.png
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
[youtube]59txpioPYJI[/youtube]
Bart Ehrman on the Qur'an - YouTube

Interestingly, Bart is silent about the Koran because he fears Muslims killing him if he dares to criticize it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT8uGolJqtc&feature=player_embedded

He also doesn't appreciate it when people liken him to a Muslim

Bart is also known as a man that REJECTS the Koran's alternate ending to Jesus' life in which he avoids getting executed. Bart, like most serious historians agrees that the man was in fact killed by the Romans. We have a source from Tacitus ( from outside the Bible) which confirms the report that he was killed at the order of Pontius Pilate.
 
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