Moral Outrage

[Shadow Wolf]

Gender is a social construct centered around tradition and patriarchal ideation.

There was gender and more than male and female before there was a patriarchy. It's something we just do. Trying to fit it nicely in a box of either-or, that we don't do, and nature basically does either-or nowhere.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well let me ask you this: What topics do you think are beyond what a 5 or 6 year old child should be exposed to?

IMO, the evolving, growing in complexity LGBTQ+ collection of topics is fluid and heavily opinion based. Most of it doesn't seem settled enough to be teaching to young children.

First grade would be appropriate. I knew by then, and lots of us do. But we just get left behind to assume we're freaks and there's something wrong with us.

 

[icehorse]

First grade would be appropriate. I knew by then, and lots of us do. But we just get left behind to assume we're freaks and there's something wrong with us.

I think the details are important here. So you knew "something", no argument. But what exactly did you know then compared to what you know now about this topic? I'd guess very little, but you tell me...

 

[Vitality]

What does "social construct" mean to you in this context?

What does "patriarchal ideation" mean to you in this context?

Frankly, I find the use of the word patriarchal to be unnecessarily divisive. How does this perspective celebrate inclusivity and diversity?

Pardon, allow me to rephrase: gender norms of today’s society seem dominated by notions that there is a superior sex. Challenges to male dominated gender roles are historically met by resistance and hesitation. I don’t see how the resistance to adopting other pronouns is any different than the pushback that happened during the women’s suffrage movement. My comment isn’t a knock on men or masculine presentation. It’s merely an expression pertaining to the incorrect notion that men are somehow superior or that responsibilities should be delegated based on sex or gender (which are not mutually exclusive)

There was gender and more than male and female before there was a patriarchy. It's something we just do. Trying to fit it nicely in a box of either-or, that we don't do, and nature basically does either-or nowhere.

Correct. I’m sorry if my phrasing gave the impression I was suggesting otherwise.

tbh, I was just being sardonic. I need to remember that my sarcastic sense of humor is often poorly translated on the interwebs.

 

[VoidCat]

What if their 1st grade teacher is nonbinary.

They are going to learn about it, whether we like it or not. We may as well introduce it in a controlled group setting open for questions.

Im nonbinary and I'm getting a certifacite to work at a daycare. Oh the HORROR!

Tho i dont think ill be that open about my identity without talking to my employer on how to handle a situation where someone wants to know if im a girl or boy and cant tell, how i should go about such a situation, so not to get fired.

Kids in my experience actually understand nonbinary better then parents do. I just have to say im not a boy or girl and the kid tends to get it immediately. Adults meanwhile it takes ages for them

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Correct. I’m sorry if my phrasing gave the impression I was suggesting otherwise.

tbh, I was just being sardonic. I need to remember that my sarcastic sense of humor is often poorly translated on the interwebs.

I was more opening the discussion further that this is nothing new. Not even remotely. One of the oldest human burial sites we've found among the buried couples was a couple both with male skeletons but one of them was buried like the female skeletons.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think the details are important here. So you knew "something", no argument. But what exactly did you know then compared to what you know now about this topic? I'd guess very little, but you tell me...

I knew I wasn't normal. I knew I felt drawn to girl things, more compelled to socialize with an act like girls. I knew and felt like I girl, that I should be one.
But because no one talks about this stuff and keeps wanting to insist and demand it shouldn't be I got to spend my childhood thinking there was something very wrong with me, and that my not being normal is shameful and disgraceful.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I feel the problem is your are putting ideas into young children's head the parents have no guidance for.

The parents don't choose the public school's curricula, nor should they. That is done by professional and experienced educators representing the interests of the community. The parents decide whether to send their children to public school or not, not what will be taught there if they go.

If society wants children learning the history of racism in America and the parents don't approve, they have private schools and home schooling as an option. If they can't afford the former and can't be home to do the latter because they need to work, then they will simply have to give their alternative point of view when their child comes home with an idea they don't like.

Once again, schools don't exist to teach children what the parents want them to learn. They teach what the education system wants them to learn. It wants them to lean sex education, gender fluidity and tolerance, and the unfairness of systemic racism. Parents who don't like that don't get to to change the curriculum, just Junior's schooling situation.

So the child says whatever, which the parent says is wrong. Now you are creating an element of distrust between the child, the parent and the teacher.

If distrust results, that is the parents' doing. Parents can give dissenting opinions without undermining teachers or causing distrust. I remember an elementary school teacher that taught us that each cigarette takes two minutes off of a life. I came home concerned. How long could they last like that?

My mother explained that that would amount to an hour a day for a pack-and-a-half per day smoker, or 365 hours = 15 days a year, which over forty years shortens life by about two years. No trust was lost in the teacher.

If my mother had said that the teacher was nuts and had had an angry reaction, that would have been different.

 

[icehorse]

I knew I wasn't normal. I knew I felt drawn to girl things, more compelled to socialize with an act like girls. I knew and felt like I girl, that I should be one.
But because no one talks about this stuff and keeps wanting to insist and demand it shouldn't be I got to spend my childhood thinking there was something very wrong with me, and that my not being normal is shameful and disgraceful.

This all makes sense. So it seems in standard childhood development, for any given topic to be learned, we often take kids thru a topic iteratively, starting very simple and then progressing to more complexity in later passes. So to me, this is about the details. How much is taught to 6 year olds, what's added when they're 8, what's added when they're 10, and so on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This all makes sense. So it seems in standard childhood development, for any given topic to be learned, we often take kids thru a topic iteratively, starting very simple and then progressing to more complexity in later passes. So to me, this is about the details. How much is taught to 6 year olds, what's added when they're 8, what's added when they're 10, and so on.

Yup. That's the intention. First grade is really nothing more than the basics, like some guys love women and some love guys and vice versa and the basics about gender identity. Then you add stuff about puberty before that starts, and then add more about sexual activities when that time comes.

 

[Vitality]

Im nonbinary and I'm getting a certifacite to work at a daycare. Oh the HORROR!

Tho i dont think ill be that open about my identity without talking to my employer on how to handle a situation where someone wants to know if im a girl or boy and cant tell, how i should go about such a situation, so not to get fired.

Kids in my experience actually understand nonbinary better then parents do. I just have to say im not a boy or girl and the kid tends to get it immediately. Adults meanwhile it takes ages for them

My child came out as non-binary at age twelve. Even as someone who fully supports trans identities I find it difficult not to say “she/her” or think of her in terms of the birth name I gave. It’s taking a conscious rewiring of my brain to change the thought processes pertaining to how I refer to my child and I slip up a lot. It doesn’t help that they’ve flipflopped on preferred pronouns a lot.

I think it’s different with strangers you just meet because there is no previously associated terminology or identification. Undoing 12+ years of thinking a certain way takes time and effort.

Children are little sponges that process new information all the time. They may not be capable of fully conceptualizing some things, but gender is a fairly basic concept. They don’t need to understand all the why’s or how’s in order to develop a respect for people’s preferences.

I seriously question what makes people think it’s ok to teach kids that “girls have vaginas and boys have penises” but not that what’s between your legs doesn’t always determine gender identity and/or expression.

 

[VoidCat]

My child came out as non-binary at age twelve. Even as someone who fully supports trans identities I find it difficult not to say “she/her” or think of her in terms of the birth name I gave. It’s taking a conscious rewiring of my brain to change the thought processes pertaining to how I refer to my child and I slip up a lot. It doesn’t help that they’ve flipflopped on preferred pronouns a lot.

I think it’s different with strangers you just meet because there is no previously associated terminology or identification. Undoing 12+ years of thinking a certain way takes time and effort.

Children are little sponges that process new information all the time. They may not be capable of fully conceptualizing some things, but gender is a fairly basic concept. They don’t need to understand all the why’s or how’s in order to develop a respect for people’s preferences.

I seriously question what makes people think it’s ok to teach kids that “girls have vaginas and boys have penises” but not that what’s between your legs doesn’t always determine gender identity and/or expression.

Came out earlier then i did. I knew I wasn't a boy or girl at a young age since i was seven but didnt know what nonbinary was till i was older and came out at 14

 

[The Hammer]

Shouldn't be that difficult to get parents and teachers on the same page.

Did you see all those PTAs about masking and shutting school down during the pandemic? get them all on the same page, Ha!

 

[SomeRandom]

This about sums up my thoughts on the matter. It's only been pretty recently that various terms have been coined, and that people of all stripes and colors within this framework of ideas have come forward to "add their name to the list." Does it even constitute a body of cohesive "knowledge" worthy of officially disseminating to anyone at this point? Let alone to children...

The terms are fairly recent, sure. But the ideas and concepts are anything but.
All around the world there are cultures that have had a concept of people “not fitting in” with a gendered binary idea for literally thousands of years. This is what’s known as third gender cultures.
The Hijra for India, two spirits for certain Native American tribes, the Mahu for some Hawaiians and Tahitians etc.

That we are only coming up with more terms now is actually because of how intense the English language is as a whole. It is a very specific language and as such complex and nuanced concepts are often being whittled down as scientists (and some linguists) try to label everything appropriately. But remember a lot of the terms we use, don’t necessarily translate into other languages that well. This is true for many concepts in science just in general. I think (and my French users can correct me if I’m wrong here) the word “bug” for example is translated as “insectre” (sp?) or “insect” in French, even though not all insects are technically “bugs” in terms of biological definition. Though all bugs are insects. It’s a case of the English language being a tiny bit too specific to translate as a 1 to 1 thing.

 

[The Hammer]

Came out earlier then i did. I knew I wasn't a boy or girl at a young age since i was seven but didnt know what nonbinary was till i was older and came out at 14

Yup, I questioned my sexuality and gender through a portion of my school age and teen years.

If it wasn't for **** I found on the internet, I would have just thought I was a freak, with more mental health problems then I already did have (repression exacerbates stress/anxiety over identity).

 

[SomeRandom]

First graders given gender identity worksheet, told people can be neither or both genders

People are outraged at Gender Identity instruction in kindergarten....

I don't think it's all that inappropriate to teach them She/He and They...... And what that means.

Maybe I'm missing something.

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, some parents are just too scared about “sexualising children.” Not that I’m for such a concept, obviously. But that parents overreact and think some things are inherently sexual when they’re just not. So they’re not the best gauge of what’s appropriate to teach kids. Sorry but they’re just not.

Schools teach against the parents wishes all the time. I mean a kid could have parents who deny the Holocaust. Should the schools therefore refuse to teach the event due to this objection? Obviously not.

Not every parent will agree with a school’s curriculum. That’s just life sometimes. That’s why a curriculum is decided by experts we defer to and maybe sometimes schools will have discussions with whatever local PTA thing is there if a concept goes too far. Or is “too much.” Though that line will be pushed further back, no matter how strongly people protest. A society will always grow lest they want to die out.

But I am of the opinion that education is the better option and that parents don’t always know what appropriate education even is. That might be controversial but I hold to it.
I knew folks who’s parents objected stringently to sex Ed classes. Should the school kowtow to such ignorance and fail to prepare students for puberty and dating scenarios?
Though weirdly we never had to get a parent permission slip signed for such classes. I think a parent had to specifically write an “excuse my child out” note if they objected to such a class.
But even of the kids with such notes in my class, very few dared to show it to the teacher, for fear of being mocked by the student body. Showing a disconnect I think parents don’t want to admit happens in families. Kids are naturally curious, they are self aware from a young age and they will form their own identity seperate from parents. That’s what it means to be a growing child.
So I think concepts like gender identity should be taught young. According to the studies this reduces stigma, harm and embarrassment in the youth. As they age then you can introduce more complex topics. Puberty, biology, sexuality etc.

 

[Nakosis]

The parents don't choose the public school's curricula, nor should they. That is done by professional and experienced educators representing the interests of the community. The parents decide whether to send their children to public school or not, not what will be taught there if they go.

If society wants children learning the history of racism in America and the parents don't approve, they have private schools and home schooling as an option. If they can't afford the former and can't be home to do the latter because they need to work, then they will simply have to give their alternative point of view when their child comes home with an idea they don't like.

Once again, schools don't exist to teach children what the parents want them to learn. They teach what the education system wants them to learn. It wants them to lean sex education, gender fluidity and tolerance, and the unfairness of systemic racism. Parents who don't like that don't get to to change the curriculum, just Junior's schooling situation.



If distrust results, that is the parents' doing. Parents can give dissenting opinions without undermining teachers or causing distrust. I remember an elementary school teacher that taught us that each cigarette takes two minutes off of a life. I came home concerned. How long could they last like that?

My mother explained that that would amount to an hour a day for a pack-and-a-half per day smoker, or 365 hours = 15 days a year, which over forty years shortens life by about two years. No trust was lost in the teacher.

If my mother had said that the teacher was nuts and had had an angry reaction, that would have been different.

Ok, I disagree. I think you are putting too much trust into the public school system. Personally I see no reason to place that much trust without parental oversight or at least transparency.

I would certainly tell my child not to trust what the teacher claimed about cigarettes which is obviously not true.

Not every parent can afford to take their children out of public school. Since it is public and since it is paid for with tax payer money, parents should certainly have input on their child's public education.

 

[The Hammer]

Ok, I disagree. I think you are putting too much trust into the public school system. Personally I see no reason to place that much trust without parental oversight or at least transparency.

Teachers and educators aren't more often then not parents themselves?

 

[Nakosis]

Teachers and educators aren't more often then not parents themselves?

Sure, but their reliability as individuals remain unknown. You don't really know me. I wouldn't expect you to trust me with your children.
Everyone thought they could trust the their children with Catholic priests.
There exists examples of teachers, abusing kids mentally and physically. Not saying it is the norm but you don't want it to be your child.

Actually the diagram in the article, I don't have an objection to specifically, and I think the parents likely over-reacted but hey, it is their children. I can't blame them for being over protective.

I understand that parents can be abusive as well but neither am I willing to trust that the school system knows best.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ideas don't cause damage if they can be unlearned.

Personally that is not what I see happens in this world. Early years are very important and any damage done in the early years is carried throughout this life

Regards Tony