Moral Outrage

[Guitar's Cry]

I feel the problem is your are putting ideas into young children's head the parents have no guidance for.
So the child says whatever, which the parent says is wrong. Now you are creating an element of distrust between the child, the parent and the teacher.
The teacher is only going to be with them for a semester. The parent is going to be with them for life.

Doing the opposite is also true for some families; using gender binary material may not be acceptable for everyone.

Public schools necessarily have to provide for diversity because they accept all students and need to provide a safe, accepting, and accessible environment.

If the parents disagree they can choose alternative education or contradict their teacher. I often get kids that try to contradict some of the more controversial subjects I bring up (as unbiased as I try to be), and I have learned ways to manage it. Granted, I work with older students, but I am sure there are ways to do so with the younger students.

 

[Nakosis]

Doing the opposite is also true for some families; using gender binary material may not be acceptable for everyone.

Public schools necessarily have to provide for diversity because they accept all students and need to provide a safe, accepting, and accessible environment.

If the parents disagree they can choose alternative education or contradict their teacher. I often get kids that try to contradict some of the more controversial subjects I bring up (as unbiased as I try to be), and I have learned ways to manage it. Granted, I work with older students, but I am sure there are ways to do so with the younger students.

I'd suspect the ones to challenge the teachers would be my kids. I taught them to question everything, including me.
I'd want to know, be informed. Otherwise I might misunderstand and cause unnecessary trust issue the other way. Or maybe their teacher is someone I have to worry about being around everyone's children.

I'm glad you present ideas as unbiased as is possible. Unfortunately, no guarantee every teacher does.

 

[The Hammer]

Personally that is not what I see happens in this world. Early years are very important and any damage done in the early years is carried throughout this life

Regards Tony

Sure, but nothing being expressing here is damaging to a child.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sure, but nothing being expressing here is damaging to a child.

I see that as a relative opinion. It is not an opinion that I would offer a majority may support.

Regards Tony

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

These teachers have lost their minds. That is entirely inappropriate. I'm a trans man and I wouldn't want my kids taught this at school. They went beyond just telling the kids that some people are a certain way (which school isn't the place for those sorts of discussions). They encouraged the kids to question their gender. It appeared they were promoting it in a way:

"The assignment also allegedly asked students to “create a snowperson that is an example of how you identify yourself,” asking them to then explain their choice.

Alleged screenshots of the lesson also show it endorsing children’s books, including one introducing the students “to the nonbinary experience,” done “through an accessible fictional narrative.”

Another one of the books offered is said to “keep the conversations alive,” related to gender pronouns, and “break down assumptions of who is ‘she’ or ‘he’ and expand beyond the binary to include ‘they’ and more.”"

Why should we be encouraging kindergartners to question their gender, especially using such shaky ideology as a foundation? That will not end up well. As well telling the kids blatant falsehoods as you can be both a man and a woman at the same time, or somehow neither. (Androgyny is another thing, and is more about mannerisms and how you express yourself, which is what "nonbinary" seemed to be rehashing but now it's gone further than that, thanks for gender theory.)

Personally, I don't even believe in the notion of "gender identity". That's an abstract concept that was most likely cooked up by a gender theorist in a university somewhere and then it filtered down into the popular imagination. It just confuses and muddles things when you pretend that it's something unrelated to biological sex, and it makes it sound as if being a man or woman is "all in your head", which helps make transsexuals sound like we're making it all up. I accept the reality of biological sex and didn't transition to destroy it. At the end of the day, we're all male or female, and that includes intersex and trans people. If we're going to decouple being a man or woman from biological sex (and I'm not just referring to genitals), then we're going to need to come up new definitions that are logical and based on sound fact and science, and that doesn't exist.

Adults can't even agree on this, including trans people (who they probably think they're helping with this crap), it's a heavily politicized topic, and not very scientific. It doesn't belong in schools until you get a higher level and are able to debate these things.

 

[The Hammer]

I see that as a relative opinion. It is not an opinion that I would offer a majority may support.

Regards Tony

And that is a relative opinion, that the majority doesn't necessarily support either.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Tho i dont think ill be that open about my identity without talking to my employer on how to handle a situation where someone wants to know if im a girl or boy and cant tell, how i should go about such a situation, so not to get fired.

Good luck, and please don't be one of these narcissists who blows a gasket at little kids noticing that someone is female when there's no way they can tell they see themselves as something else (some of them in this clip are teachers):

I know you're not like that, though. But I have met some who are...

 

[VoidCat]

Good luck, and please don't be one of these narcissists who blows a gasket at little kids noticing that someone is female when there's no way they can tell they see themselves as something else (some of them in this clip are teachers):

I know you're not like that, though. But I have met some who are...

Kids are just trying to understand the world. I might not even tell them im nonbinary. I might just let them perceive me as female to avoid conflict with adults. I'd much rather just say im neither man nor woman but I really don't want to be open about it then lose my job or something when I'm just trying to exist. It's not like I'd be saying im nonbinary if i were to say so cuz I want convert kids(I dont even think that's possible) but so not to lie to them and most I would say is im not a guy or girl I felt uncomfortable with being seen as either so im not that. Kids could understand that and I won't push them to refer to me as any way. But adults would freak so it might just be better to just have them gender me as female.

 

[rational experiences]

We are humans first. Ignored truth.

Sex as gender choice is meant to be an adults choice.

Sex education once depicted safe sex which still for anyone today the same issue. Keeping safe. No matter the choice.

Personal human respect for everyone includes teaching that not everyone can behave the same. Which is conscious position not sexual body position.

If you teach relativity then changed inherited minds is the place of the teaching purpose be kind and care for humans who behave differently.

Parents should be concerned when sex becomes the focus position and not mind conditions. As all correct choices are about keeping safe first.

Which is the safe sex topic only. If humanity tell the truth.

As being cared for as a child never owned gender identity as a carer.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Kids are just trying to understand the world. I might not even tell them im nonbinary. I might just let them perceive me as female to avoid conflict with adults. I'd much rather just say im neither man nor woman but I really don't want to be open about it then lose my job or something when I'm just trying to exist. It's not like I'd be saying im nonbinary if i were to convert kids but so not to lie to them and most I would say is im not a guy or gorl I felt uncomfortable with being seen as either so im not that. Kids could understand that and I won't push them to refer to me as any way. But adults would freak so it might just be better to just have them gender me as female.

I think the problem here is that some of these teachers have forgotten, if they ever knew at all, that it's not about them. It's about the children they're placed in charge of. They're there to do a job and parents place their trust in them to do it well. I don't know where some teachers get the idea that they must tell kids about their personal life or come out to their class. It's really bizarre. None of my teachers, from elementary to high school, ever talked about their personal lives or SOs with us, even when we knew some of them were married to each other. It's just not something that needs to come up in class. (In fact, one of the teachers where we did know about his personal life ended up in hot water for soliciting sex from an underage boy.) It's inappropriate and that's not what school is for. There's a big boundary issue here. I wouldn't be talking about being trans or bisexual with my class. It's none of their business.

It's also rather gross for an adult in charge of little kids to be forcing that stuff on them, as if they need validation from 6 year olds. Talk about pathetic and someone who doesn't need to be teaching. They're not your children (not talking about you personally), it's a job and we all go home at the end of the day.

A lot of this is probably coming from our increasingly narcissistic, petty and egotistical society, especially thanks to social media. Now people think they have the right to tell every stranger their life story. Oversharing is very popular now.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The terms are fairly recent, sure. But the ideas and concepts are anything but.

Understood, and I wouldn't have claimed that people of all nature of feeling/desire/inclination haven't existed for ages... but what might that comprise in terms of a lesson-plan? Teaching about "diversity" in general doesn't seem to touch on what some might want to be more specific ideas and ideals. Until it is something without a boatload of flux still going on, one would need to stick to generalities, and very potentially calling various groups by terms they may not appreciate a few years down the line.

That we are only coming up with more terms now is actually because of how intense the English language is as a whole. It is a very specific language and as such complex and nuanced concepts are often being whittled down as scientists (and some linguists) try to label everything appropriately. But remember a lot of the terms we use, don’t necessarily translate into other languages that well. This is true for many concepts in science just in general. I think (and my French users can correct me if I’m wrong here) the word “bug” for example is translated as “insectre” (sp?) or “insect” in French, even though not all insects are technically “bugs” in terms of biological definition. Though all bugs are insects. It’s a case of the English language being a tiny bit too specific to translate as a 1 to 1 thing.

I am sure examples abound for things in all languages that don't quite translate perfectly to others. German has a term "doch" - which sort of means "you should" and can be used as a sort of "c'mon, try it!" sort of thing. There isn't an exact 1-to-1 translation, but you definitely get a sense of the word once it has been used in your direction a few times.

But I remain unsure what any of this has to do with the teaching of the LGBTQ+ concepts in school. Stating that English is complex... is that a statement that indicates that there will remain too much flux to simply put off teaching these concepts or something? I'm struggling to understand the pertinence to the conversation at hand.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally that is not what I see happens in this world. Early years are very important and any damage done in the early years is carried throughout this life

Regards Tony

No damage is being done, but the self esteem of a hand full of kids might be spared.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They encouraged the kids to question their gender. It appeared they were promoting it in a way:

"The assignment also allegedly asked students to “create a snowperson that is an example of how you identify yourself,” asking them to then explain their choice.

Asking how you identify is not asking or encouraging you to question it.

Why should we be encouraging kindergartners to question their gender,

You haven't demonstrated they are.

Adults can't even agree on this, including trans people

It's not adults in general who have to agree. In that regard, adults inexplicably can't even agree the world is a spheroid and that evolution happens.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Asking how you identify is not asking or encouraging you to question it.

You haven't demonstrated they are.

It's not adults in general who have to agree. In that regard, adults inexplicably can't even agree the world is a spheroid and that evolution happens.

From the article:
"The assignment also allegedly asked students to “create a snowperson that is an example of how you identify yourself,” asking them to then explain their choice.

Alleged screenshots of the lesson also show it endorsing children’s books, including one introducing the students “to the nonbinary experience,” done “through an accessible fictional narrative.”

Another one of the books offered is said to “keep the conversations alive,” related to gender pronouns, and “break down assumptions of who is ‘she’ or ‘he’ and expand beyond the binary to include ‘they’ and more.”"

We don't need to be asking kindergartners how they "identify" in the first place. This kind of crap is exactly the kind of stuff that is causing a backlash towards LGBT people. We went from telling people we just want to be left alone to be ourselves, to wanting 5 year olds to explain their gender in school. If a child is having gender identity issues, that's more something they need to discuss with a specialist and their family. It's something to be very cautious with as most of the kids who present with gender dysphoria or gender non-conforming behavior end up not being trans (they are typically either gay, lesbian or bisexual or just exploring things as kids tend to do).

 

[icehorse]

Yup. That's the intention. First grade is really nothing more than the basics, like some guys love women and some love guys and vice versa and the basics about gender identity. Then you add stuff about puberty before that starts, and then add more about sexual activities when that time comes.

To me, the next step is getting really clear on what ideas would be taught when. Because we see all these flame wars in the media and between politicians, and none of it seems to be based on specifics.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To me, the next step is getting really clear on what ideas would be taught when. Because we see all these flame wars in the media and between politicians, and none of it seems to be based on specifics.

The rest of the West has largely already done this. It's not getting clear or figuring things out, because that's been done. It's getting caught up with the rest of the developed and modernized world that America needs to do.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We don't need to be asking kindergartners how they "identify" in the first place.

Why not? Why not open the conversation early on what it means to be a boy/man or girl/woman.

If a child is having gender identity issues, that's more something they need to discuss with a specialist and their family. It's something to be very cautious with as most of the kids who present with gender dysphoria or gender non-conforming behavior end up not being trans (they are typically either gay, lesbian or bisexual or just exploring things as kids tend to do).

Yup. And that's why we need these conversations. The black and white molds of gender and sexuality do need broken and done away with because they aren't compatible with nature. And why shouldn't people think about and discuss what it means to be a boy or girl? We might even be able to instill their value and worth as a boy/girl and eventually man/woman isn't based on their genitals and sexuality and ability to reproduce and ability to provide.

 

[SomeRandom]

Understood, and I wouldn't have claimed that people of all nature of feeling/desire/inclination haven't existed for ages... but what might that comprise in terms of a lesson-plan? Teaching about "diversity" in general doesn't seem to touch on what some might want to be more specific ideas and ideals. Until it is something without a boatload of flux still going on, one would need to stick to generalities, and very potentially calling various groups by terms they may not appreciate a few years down the line.

Given the age group the OP is referring to, I would assume that any concept would be simplified by default. Including LGBTQ+ concepts. But I take your point about some terms not being appreciated later. That’s just a consequence of an evolving language and society though. I mean even terminology for people of mixed race or African Americans have changed over the years. Some because it was seen as offensive later on due to various factors. Even though such terminology may have also been used academically.

I am sure examples abound for things in all languages that don't quite translate perfectly to others. German has a term "doch" - which sort of means "you should" and can be used as a sort of "c'mon, try it!" sort of thing. There isn't an exact 1-to-1 translation, but you definitely get a sense of the word once it has been used in your direction a few times.

But I remain unsure what any of this has to do with the teaching of the LGBTQ+ concepts in school. Stating that English is complex... is that a statement that indicates that there will remain too much flux to simply put off teaching these concepts or something? I'm struggling to understand the pertinence to the conversation at hand.

I’m simply saying that because the English language is so intense at times, that we will be enjvitably coming up with ever nuanced terms for LGBTQ+ concepts. Those may or may not translate well into other languages even. So it’s not really an indicator of something suspicious if more and more people come forward with ever increasing terminology and experiences. Which is what you said and what I was replying to. If you didn’t mean that, or I misunderstood your point, I apologise.
I’m usually half awake/drunk on these forums lol

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why not? Why not open the conversation early on what it means to be a boy/man or girl/woman.

Yup. And that's why we need these conversations. The black and white molds of gender and sexuality do need broken and done away with because they aren't compatible with nature. And why shouldn't people think about and discuss what it means to be a boy or girl? We might even be able to instill their value and worth as a boy/girl and eventually man/woman isn't based on their genitals and sexuality and ability to reproduce and ability to provide.

Because at that point, it's really about indoctrinating children with an ideology. No, "black and white molds of gender and sexuality" don't need to be broken and that's certainly not a conversation to be having with kids. Almost all males will grow up to men with sex-typical behavior, and same for females. We don't have to upend society because a tiny number of people, me included, are exceptions to the rule. Leave them alone to be kids. That's more a debate (and I do mean debate, as what they say isn't settled science) to have in a sociology class or at least high school, if we're going to have it all, not with 5 year olds. Kindergartners are supposed to be learning their ABCs and taking lots of naps.

Teachers should not be acting as activists and forcing their views on children. They should be as unbiased as possible in their lessons, when it comes to political issues. Parents have the right to object to such things. You go to school to be taught facts and how to think correctly (using reason and logic), not to be told what to think or question your entire identity.

It's just going to lead to more confusion and people being mislead, because a lot of what these gender activists are saying isn't even true. At this point, they don't even accept that biological sex is real or that there's neurological and psychological differences between males and females, even though we know damn well there are and we can see this with our own eyes. What makes me even more angry is how they pretend to represent trans people, when we damn sure aren't all on board with this. Even I'm becoming homophobic and transphobic due to the antics of the radicals shoving nonsense down people's throats, and I'm bisexual and trans! Lol. (Not really, I'm just sick of it and prefer to distance myself from it as much as possible.)

 

[icehorse]

The rest of the West has largely already done this. It's not getting clear or figuring things out, because that's been done. It's getting caught up with the rest of the developed and modernized world that America needs to do.

Do you know how to find a good set of details for how it's being done elsewhere?