mormonism racist?

[DavyCrocket2003]

Sound like it leaves you confused. Better sort that one out before you go on your mission. By the way, what color do you think Lehi's descendants were before God supposedly made their skin turn black, and what color do you think they were afterwards?

Well, I'll be honest, I've never met a Nephite. Sorry to disappoint you. I think it would stand to reason that the Lamanites' skin was roughly the same color as the Native Americans.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Especially when you add the several other BoM references to white Nephites and dark Lamanites.

What do you make of it Auto? I guess that it reflects Joseph Smith's racism (or that of his day)?

What if Nephi is saying that white is more desirable? That makes me extremely uncomfortable. I guess you don't have to interpret it literally, but that doesn't really make very much sense to me.

 

[Autodidact]

I see you ignored the rest of my post. How convenient for you.

That you're not a literalist? I'm sorry, but the whole idea of non-literal Mormonism just cracks me up. I mean, if the BoM is supposed to be some collection of great allegories to guide us in God's will, what on earth are we supposed to learn from them? Why would we care about hundreds of pages of nonsense history, made-up names and imaginary animals, enormous battles at pretend places? And how would any of that get you to temples, underwear, stakes, priesthood, male dominance, apostles, revelation, etc? If it's not literal, how on earth do you know what to put in your religion? You could be wearing long green robes and chanting around a fire while dancing the watusi, and when someone says that's not how you practice Mormonism, you reply, "Well, I'm not a literalist?"

 

[Autodidact]

What do you make of it Auto? I guess that it reflects Joseph Smith's racism (or that of his day)?

Well, better take me with a grain of salt, Davy, as I'm a raving atheist and I think Mormonism is silly, but yes, more or less. I think Smith, like most writers of holy books, was trying to explain his world. He had seen mounds and was beginning to learn that there were Indian cities. Due to the racism he imbibed from infancy, it was difficult for him to accept that Indians had developed all that. So he hypothesized that they came from the Middle East, and the bad ones degenerated into the Indians he saw around them, because God punished them for their sins. "God punished them for their sins" is one of the most common, all-purpose explanations for things. It's much more complicated--it also served the purpose of bringing Christianity into an American context. Remember, Christianity was seen as a European religion originating from the Middle East, and we were a new continent, new nation, etc.

What if Nephi is saying that white is more desirable? That makes me extremely uncomfortable. I guess you don't have to interpret it literally, but that doesn't really make very much sense to me.

Of course white is more desirable. Smith was white! That's obvious. He's not even asserting that dark is bad; he assumes it. It was an obvious truism to him and everyone he'd ever met that light is better than dark. He's trying to explain why some people have dark skin.

From an atheist point of view, that's how I see it.

 

[Watchmen]

That you're not a literalist? I'm sorry, but the whole idea of non-literal Mormonism just cracks me up. I mean, if the BoM is supposed to be some collection of great allegories to guide us in God's will, what on earth are we supposed to learn from them? Why would we care about hundreds of pages of nonsense history, made-up names and imaginary animals, enormous battles at pretend places? And how would any of that get you to temples, underwear, stakes, priesthood, male dominance, apostles, revelation, etc? If it's not literal, how on earth do you know what to put in your religion? You could be wearing long green robes and chanting around a fire while dancing the watusi, and when someone says that's not how you practice Mormonism, you reply, "Well, I'm not a literalist?"

So mythology has no place in culture?

 

[Autodidact]

So mythology has no place in culture?

It has a place in many cultures. I think it would be the height of stupidity though to, for example, derive your morality from it, don't you agree?

 

[Watchmen]

It has a place in many cultures. I think it would be the height of stupidity though to, for example, derive your morality from it, don't you agree?

You don't think cultures derive their morality from mythologies?

That's the most absurd think I've heard today.

 

[ayani]

i think what she's saying is that it's wiser to derive one's morality from true situations and examples, rather than from imaginary scenarios meant to teach moral lessons.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, I'll be honest, I've never met a Nephite. Sorry to disappoint you. I think it would stand to reason that the Lamanites' skin was roughly the same color as the Native Americans.

Okay, well both the Nephites and the Lamanites descended from Lehi, and Lehi was Middle-eastern, not Scandanavian. Does that give you a clue?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Of course white is more desirable. Smith was white! That's obvious. He's not even asserting that dark is bad; he assumes it. It was an obvious truism to him and everyone he'd ever met that light is better than dark. He's trying to explain why some people have dark skin.

And let's not forget, it wasn't completely irrational at that time to believe the "white" peoples were somehow superior. At that time, you looked around the world and you saw white armies of a few hundred bringing entire empires to their knees in the Americas and Africa, converting other peoples to their religion, their culture, etc. not the other way around. Africans didn't enslave Europeans. Christians didn't convert to Native American spiritualism. The 'dark-skinned' peoples didn't have the advanced ideological systems and bureaucracies and economies and navigation and sciences and libraries that were made possible by technologies like the printing press, so there was apparently something superior about whites which called for an explanation. Guns, Germs, and Steel is a pretty incredible book that explains why this asymmetry occurred.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You don't think cultures derive their morality from mythologies?

That's the most absurd think I've heard today.

It's undeniable that cultures do in fact do this. The question is whether or not it is "the height of stupidity" as Autodidact claimed. I think she is right, morality should not be *derived* from myths, a myth can be a tool to illustrate morality just like an essay is a tool to illustrate ideas. While the myth can be appreciated for its aesthetic and historical value, the *lesson* of the myth (if any) has to be evaluated on its merits and the ultimate test is real-world experience.

Okay, well both the Nephites and the Lamanites descended from Lehi, and Lehi was Middle-eastern, not Scandanavian. Does that give you a clue?

We are talking about skin color, correct? As you know, skin color ranges quite widely in the Middle-East even within individual countries such as Egypt. Here is an Iranian man:

And here is a Scandinavian man:

Neither skin color appears to be truly white, or black, or even dark to my eye. Of course these are just individuals, the color of any individual can vary even within one family.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Here is a Palestinian man:

His skin does doesn't appear to me to be any darker than my own or that of many of my white friends. This Egyptian man's skin appears as dark as many "black" peoples' skin:

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Another Egyptian man, his skin color is as "white" as that of any "white" person I know (whose actual color of course is not even close to the actual color white):

 

[Katzpur]

We are talking about skin color, correct? As you know, skin color ranges quite widely in the Middle-East even within individual countries such as Egypt.

I agree, but maybe you can tell me what's up with people who constantly criticize Christians of all denominations for depicting Jesus as having fair skinn and light brown hair? I've lost count how many people have made this an issue, and have pointed out that Jesus more than likely had a darker skin and darker hair than He is generally depicted as having. No matter where you go in the world, you're going to find some variance in skin color, but when the Olympic team from Jordan or Lebanon walks out onto the field in the opening ceremonies, how many people are going to mistake it for the team from Norway or Sweeden. Middle-eastern people are darker -- as a rule -- than people from Northern Europe, for instance. And the Nephites and Lamanites pretty much all descended essentially from two families. If the Lamanites were visibly darker in complexion than the Nephites, their ancestors would be, too.

 

[dragonflygrrrrl]

Shahzad, perhaps you would like to talk about the fact of blacks holding the priesthood during Joseph Smith's time and the fact that Mormons were abolitionists.

And polygamists.

 

[Watchmen]

And polygamists.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

That's so funny!!!!

 

[Autodidact]

i think what she's saying is that it's wiser to derive one's morality from true situations and examples, rather than from imaginary scenarios meant to teach moral lessons.

Actually, what I'm saying is that we have made a lot of moral progress from the days when "morality" meant kill Amalekite babies, but don't eat weasels. It hink it would be idiotic to retard our moral progress to that primitive point in history.

 

[Autodidact]

You don't think cultures derive their morality from mythologies?

That's the most absurd think I've heard today.

No, it's more vice versa. I think it would be stupid to believe that it's moral to kill your babies, because your mythological characters do it.

 

[Watchmen]

That's not the Truth the mythologies teach.

 

[Autodidact]

That's not the Truth the mythologies teach.

Overgeneralize much? Some do; some don't. In any case, my point is that to derive your morals from the actions of mythical characters would be stupid. In any case, is it your position that the BoM is a book of myths?