mormonism racist?

[Mr Spinkles]

Arrrg...I lost my post, retrying....!! :help:

I agree, but maybe you can tell me what's up with people who constantly criticize Christians of all denominations for depicting Jesus as having fair skinn and light brown hair? I've lost count how many people have made this an issue, and have pointed out that Jesus more than likely had a darker skin and darker hair than He is generally depicted as having.

Well fair enough but that's a separate issue, and now you've introduced hair color. I was specifically talking about skin color in response to your comment:

(DavyCrocket) I think it would stand to reason that the Lamanites' skin was roughly the same color as the Native Americans.

(Katzpur) Okay, well both the Nephites and the Lamanites descended from Lehi, and Lehi was Middle-eastern, not Scandanavian. Does that give you a clue?
​

This clue tells us very little about their skin color since the Middle East is a huge region with a wide range of skin color. (It does tell us, say, that they probably had dark hair (no blondes or reds) and brown or green eyes (no blues) but not skin color...in fact even DavyCrocket's comment about "the same color as the Native Americans" does not make sense; which tribe, which region are we talking about? The entire issue of whether the Nephites and co. skin color was "black", "white", "dark" or "the same as the Native Americans" is not even a very coherent question in the first place...UNLESS we adopt an unrealistic and outdated view of skin color which was common in 19th century America.

No matter where you go in the world, you're going to find some variance in skin color, but when the Olympic team from Jordan or Lebanon walks out onto the field in the opening ceremonies, how many people are going to mistake it for the team from Norway or Sweeden. Middle-eastern people are darker -- as a rule -- than people from Northern Europe, for instance. And the Nephites and Lamanites pretty much all descended essentially from two families. If the Lamanites were visibly darker in complexion than the Nephites, their ancestors would be, too.

Well that's not a fair example because so-called "white" skin is not limited to Norway and Sweden and telling the difference between people gets into general appearances, not just skin color. You can probably distinguish Olympic teams much easier by hair color and height than skin color, for example. I am only talking about skin color in reply to your comment (quoted above).

By the way, the Egyptian Olymic team:

The Syrian Olympic team:

Iranian Olympic basketball team:

Again, only looking at skin color, not hair color or anything else....does every single ethnic group of Middle-Easterners have the same skin color as "Native Americans"? Or darker, or lighter? The answer is that some ethnic groups from the Middle-East have darker, the same, or lighter skin than some groups of Native Americans. It's almost like asking if people from L.A. have the same skin color as people from New York.

*edit: And here's a map of skin color from a modern human anthropology website to illustrate my point: http://anthro.palomar.edu/vary/vary_1.htm

 

[Watchmen]

And of course this all goes back to the issue of whether skin is being used literally or if it means something else.

 

[Watchmen]

Overgeneralize much? Some do; some don't. In any case, my point is that to derive your morals from the actions of mythical characters would be stupid. In any case, is it your position that the BoM is a book of myths?

I define "myths" as the collection of stories (whether true or not) that teach a culture Truths about itself. So, yes. The Book of Mormon is a book of myths.

Why is deriving your morals from mythical characters stupid? I bet you wouldn't say that if we were talking about Native American myths, but since it's Mormons - HEY! Lets spew our hatred!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And of course this all goes back to the issue of whether skin is being used literally or if it means something else.

Right like countenance. Which is also racist.

 

[Autodidact]

I define "myths" as the collection of stories (whether true or not) that teach a culture Truths about itself. So, yes. The Book of Mormon is a book of myths.

Why is deriving your morals from mythical characters stupid? I bet you wouldn't say that if we were talking about Native American myths, but since it's Mormons - HEY! Lets spew our hatred!

What difference does it make what culture we're talking about? If you have myths about groups of people having enormous battles, and the ones that follow God's arcane rules winning, then using that as a basis for your morality is primitive and stupid. Since "Native American" is a group of thousands of different cultures with millions of myths, my guess is that some of them are beautiful, some funny, some absurd, and some stupid. In any case, they're not trying to use them to limit my freedom, so I'm not terribly concerned about them. Mormons, however, are using their silly story to deny me civil rights, so I am concerned about them.

No one is telling us to teach the Great Turtle theory in Geology class, thank God.

btw, did I say something about Mormons? I only remember discussing the BoM. In fact, IIRC, I believe I said quite near the beginning of the thread that Mormons are probably no more racist than any other group of white Americans.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

...in fact even DavyCrocket's comment about "the same color as the Native Americans" does not make sense; which tribe, which region are we talking about?

lol... exactly why I answered it that way.

 

[Watchmen]

Right like countenance. Which is also racist.

No. It's not. You're very limited in your thinking.

 

[Watchmen]

What difference does it make what culture we're talking about? If you have myths about groups of people having enormous battles, and the ones that follow God's arcane rules winning, then using that as a basis for your morality is primitive and stupid. Since "Native American" is a group of thousands of different cultures with millions of myths, my guess is that some of them are beautiful, some funny, some absurd, and some stupid. In any case, they're not trying to use them to limit my freedom, so I'm not terribly concerned about them. Mormons, however, are using their silly story to deny me civil rights, so I am concerned about them.

No one is telling us to teach the Great Turtle theory in Geology class, thank God.

btw, did I say something about Mormons? I only remember discussing the BoM. In fact, IIRC, I believe I said quite near the beginning of the thread that Mormons are probably no more racist than any other group of white Americans.

Your animosity for Mormons is abundently clear - it's even in your post I'm quoting.

 

[Autodidact]

Your animosity for Mormons is abundently clear - it's even in your post I'm quoting.

You're mistaken. I have a lot of animosity toward Mormonism, which I think is one of the silliest stories ever scammed on humanity, but none toward Mormons, as long as they don't try to interfere in my life. Unfortunately, they do, and I object to that. Well, I take that back. I think it's really rude that they send young men to knock on stranger's doors to proselytize.

In any case, attack the message, not the messenger, that's how the forum works. It's not about me, it's about the BoM and whether it contains a racist story line. If you think my posts are not accurate, show us that.

 

[Watchmen]

You're mistaken. I have a lot of animosity toward Mormonism, which I think is one of the silliest stories ever scammed on humanity, but none toward Mormons, as long as they don't try to interfere in my life. Unfortunately, they do, and I object to that. Well, I take that back. I think it's really rude that they send young men to knock on stranger's doors to proselytize.

In any case, attack the message, not the messenger, that's how the forum works. It's not about me, it's about the BoM and whether it contains a racist story line. If you think my posts are not accurate, show us that.

I already did and so did Katzpur. You and Mr. Sprinkles reject our explanations and your claim that you have no animosity towards Mormons is ridiculous. It's as plain as day. I loved my time knocking on stranger's doors to proselytize and there are those who are thankful that I did.

 

[Autodidact]

I already did and so did Katzpur. You and Mr. Sprinkles reject our explanations and your claim that you have no animosity towards Mormons is ridiculous. It's as plain as day. I loved my time knocking on stranger's doors to proselytize and there are those who are thankful that I did.

Yes, we disagree. It's not like you have authority, you've explained it, and we reject that, it's like you see it one way and I another. The word you're looking for is "disagree." I'll thank you not to claim to read my mind. I state the truth as I see it. If I say something that's not true, please correct me.

I have to take issue with your manners, but that's just my opinion. I would never ring a stranger's doorbell to tell them why I know more about reality than they and they should believe as I do, I think it's presumptuous and rude--but outside the scope of this thread. You may have loved it, but that doesn't make it appropriate behavior, whatever your religious leaders may have told you. btw, as you might imagine, the young men who ring my doorbell are welcomed into my home, spoken to kindly, and generally leave pretty quickly. I'm guessing it's part of their training?

 

[Watchmen]

Yes, we disagree. It's not like you have authority, you've explained it, and we reject that, it's like you see it one way and I another. The word you're looking for is "disagree." I'll thank you not to claim to read my mind. I state the truth as I see it. If I say something that's not true, please correct me.

I've said many times in this thread that there's a simple disagreement. Don't think you're taking some high and mighty road because you acknowledge so now. I also state the truth as I see it - and the truth as I see it is that you're filled with animosity towards Mormons.

I have to take issue with your manners, but that's just my opinion. I would never ring a stranger's doorbell to tell them why I know more about reality than they and they should believe as I do, I think it's presumptuous and rude--but outside the scope of this thread. You may have loved it, but that doesn't make it appropriate behavior, whatever your religious leaders may have told you. btw, as you might imagine, the young men who ring my doorbell are welcomed into my home, spoken to kindly, and generally leave pretty quickly. I'm guessing it's part of their training?

You may never ring a stranger's doorbell, but I would. As for what I tell them, it has nothing to do with knowing more about reality than they do - it has everything to do with wanting to share with them what works for me and inviting them to see if it works for them too. If so, that's great. If not, that's fine too. That's probably why they leave - because they see it's not for you. How horribly rude of them. Also, just because you don't like it doesn't make it inappropriate. Like I said before (and you ignored), there were those who were thankful that I knocked on their doors.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No. It's not. You're very limited in your thinking.

Well racism is not limited to skin color, look at racist literature past and present, they focus a great deal on the countenance of groups of people, and how it relates to moral/intellectual/spiritual traits.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

I already did and so did Katzpur. You and Mr. Sprinkles reject our explanations and your claim that you have no animosity towards Mormons is ridiculous. It's as plain as day. I loved my time knocking on stranger's doors to proselytize and there are those who are thankful that I did.

The problem is that the explanation you have given them doesn't convince them. It sounds more like a rationalization. Honestly I don't blame them. I see it more from their perspective. It just doesn't make me mad. It's kind of a non-issue for me. I don't understand it exactly, but it doesn't affect my belief and it doesn't affect the application of my religion, and it doesn't change the fact that people of all races, complexions and skin colors are equal before God. I just wish Nephi could come clear it all up for us.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

I've said many times in this thread that there's a simple disagreement. Don't think you're taking some high and mighty road because you acknowledge so now. I also state the truth as I see it - and the truth as I see it is that you're filled with animosity towards Mormons.

I think that's a little off topic... Who cares whether she hates Mormons or not? It's not that she hates them... she just doesn't like them very much.

 

[cardero]

The problem is that the explanation you have given them doesn't convince them. It sounds more like a rationalization. Honestly I don't blame them. I see it more from their perspective. It just doesn't make me mad. It's kind of a non-issue for me. I don't understand it exactly, but it doesn't affect my belief and it doesn't affect the application of my religion, and it doesn't change the fact that people of all races, complexions and skin colors are equal before God. I just wish Nephi could come clear it all up for us.

That's a common problem that many dead prophets encounter.

 

[AlsoAnima]

I should point out the Racism is the ideology that race is important in determining factors about a human being.

If I say the color Black symbolizes evil, and the color White symbolizes goodness, it is not racist. It is symbolism. It has nothing to do with the races associated with that color.

 

[Enlil-An]

Autodidact, I agree with you that the prophet Nephi is referring to skin color in 2 Ne. 5:21. The Book of Mormon as a whole was written by several authors and the bulk of the controversial passages concerning race were written by the prophet Nephi. These racial comments disappear after Nephi's death.

For example, Nephi's younger brother, Jacob, who became a spiritual leader after Nephi was gone chastised his people for looking down on their brethren, the Lamanites saying, "
"But, wo, wo, unto you that are not pure in heart, that are filthy this day before God; for except ye repent the land is cursed for your sakes; and the Lamanites, which are not filthy like unto you, nevertheless they are cursed with a sore cursing, shall scourge you even unto destruction. And the time speedily cometh, that except ye repent they shall possess the land of your inheritance..."

Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you...the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be mercy unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people."

Behold, their husbands love their wives, and their wives love their husbands; and their husbands and their wives love their children; and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers; wherefore, how much better are you than they, in the sight of your great Creator? O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God." - Jacob 3:3-8

A few generations later in the Book of Mormon, a group of Nephites were determined to recover lands that had been lost to the Lamanites through war. One of the participants writes, "I, Zeniff, having been taught in all the language of the Nephites, and having had a knowledge of the land of Nephi, or of the land of our fathers’ first inheritance, and having been sent as a spy among the Lamanites that I might spy out their forces, that our army might come upon them and destroy them—but when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed."

Therefore, I contended with my brethren in the wilderness, for I would that our ruler should make a treaty with them; but he being an austere and a blood-thirsty man commanded that I should be slain; but I was rescued by the shedding of much blood; for father fought against father, and brother against brother, until the greater number of our army was destroyed in the wilderness; and we returned, those of us that were spared, to the land of Zarahemla, to relate that tale to their wives and their children."

Even later in Nephite history, Nephite missionaries preached the gospel to the Lamanites and many of them were converted. There are several miraculous stories concerning these conversions and throughout the Nephite-Lamanite history usually the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites and were even isnpired by the Lord to preach to the them concerning their wickedness.

At one point in in Book of Mormon history both people became very wicked. The prophet, Mormon describes it this way, "And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord." -3 Ne. 6:14

Anyone who reads the entire Book of Mormon will see that the history of the relations between the Nephites and the Lamanites the more wicked people of the two groups were always found among the Nephites and the more righteous examples were often found among the Lamanites. In fact, the history ends with the Nephites becoming so wicked that the Lord destroys their people completely and spares the more righteous Lamanites to receive the gospel in the latter days.

So is the BoM racist. The more racist comments against the Lamanites come from Nephi (a first generation Nephite who was note used to being around Lamanites) and all of the references to skin were in regards to beauty, not their talents, intelligence, or spiritual status before God. A last quote from Nephi, "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." -2 Ne. 26:33

Since the BoM shows has a more positive image of the Lamanites than the Nephites, I think it would be hard to class the BoM as a racist book.

 

[Autodidact]

Autodidact, I agree with you that the prophet Nephi is referring to skin color in 2 Ne. 5:21. The Book of Mormon as a whole was written by several authors ...

You assert this as though it was a fact, rather than merely your belief. You believe the BoM was written by several authors. The weight of the evidence seems to indicate that it was written by a single author, Joseph Smith, at least that seems far more likely than your hypothesis.

 

[Enlil-An]

You believe the BoM was written by several authors. The weight of the evidence seems to indicate that it was written by a single author, Joseph Smith, at least that seems far more likely than your hypothesis.

Pretending for a moment that it was written by Joseph Smith, wouldn't you conclude that he wasn't a racist after comparing those few passages in Nephi with the entire narrative of the book itself?