mormonism racist?

[Scott C.]

Thank you. I agree. There was a ban. It was official. It lasted over a century, and it was racist. So we agree that the LDS church perpetrated racism. (Whether the racism came from God or from the Church I'll leave to you Mormons to sort out.) Do you agree that racism is immoral?

I believe that at any time in history, all of the following would have been immoral-

1. To think you're better than someone, because of your or their race.
2. To persecute someone because of their race.
3. To dislike or love less, anyone because of race.
4. To deny someone social or political rights because of race.
5. To enslave someone because of race.
6. To be unkind to people because of race.
7. To not hire, or pay less, because of race.
6. To discriminate, based on race, in almost every way I can think of.

The LDS perpetuated none of the above.

The following practices, based on race, are not immoral -

1. Refusal to cast a Black man to play the role of Abraham Lincoln in a major movie production.
2. Refusal to cast a White man to play the role of Martin Luther King, Jr. in a major movie production.
3. Peter refusing to take the gospel to the Gentiles, because God had so ordained for centuries, until Peter received the revelation to reverse the practice.
4. The LDS church denying the Priesthood to Black men, because of the revelations of God, until the new revelation was received in 1978.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe that at any time in history, all of the following would have been immoral-

1. To think you're better than someone, because of your or their race.
2. To persecute someone because of their race.
3. To dislike or love less, anyone because of race.
4. To deny someone social or political rights because of race.
5. To enslave someone because of race.
6. To be unkind to people because of race.
7. To not hire, or pay less, because of race.
6. To discriminate, based on race, in almost every way I can think of.

The LDS perpetuated none of the above.

The following practices, based on race, are not immoral -

1. Refusal to cast a Black man to play the role of Abraham Lincoln in a major movie production.
2. Refusal to cast a White man to play the role of Martin Luther King in a major movie production.
3. Peter refusing to take the gospel to the Gentiles, because God had so ordained for centuries, until Peter received the revelation to reverse the practice.
4. The LDS church denying the Priesthood to Black men, because of the revelations of God, until the new revelation was received in 1978.

So it was racist, but not immoral? This particular racism is moral? Why is that? It was discrimination, was it not?

 

[Scott C.]

So it was racist, but not immoral? This particular racism is moral? Why is that? It was discrimination, was it not?

Yes it was God ordained discrimination, based on race. That is not immoral.

 

[Autodidact]

So discrimination based on race is immoral, unless God commands it? Then it's moral?

 

[Autodidact]

Katzpur, do you agree that God commanded this racist policy?

 

[Scott C.]

So, Mormons, does it amaze you when people accuse the Mormon Church of racism, since we have just established that it practiced a racist policy for 150 years?

No, it does not amaze me at all. But, the thing that's hard for non-LDS to get is that the overwhelming majority of LDS did not like the practice. We accepted it as God's will, but wished it was not God's will. I guess it's sort of like accepting that it's God's will that your loved one is in a wheel chair - not having all of the privileges as the rest of us. We love the person. We don't think that we're superior. We accept their condition as God's will and so we accept it. We pray it will change. God promises in the resurrection that they will be made whole and be able to walk. Then, much to our surprise and delight, in 1978, God works a miracle and heals the person in the wheel chair. He or she can now walk. What a blessed and happy day. Their trial and our trial is over. God did not change his mind. He knew what he was doing. It was his will that the trial exist when it did and that it would go away when it did.

Ok, I know the wheel chair anaology is not a perfect analogy to Blacks and the Priesthood. But, it's the best I have at the moment.

 

[tomasortega]

I wouldn't even know where to begin, Tomas, but I can assure you that I came to my conclusions after a great deal of study, soul-searching and prayer. To put it in a nutshell, I find answers in Mormonism that I cannot find in any other Christian religion. It is the only Christian faith in which I cannot find any internal inconsistancies. Mormonism's understanding of the relationship between God and man is so ennobling and uplifting. Its explanation of God's purpose in creating us in the first place is so much more satisfying to me than the explanation offered by any other Christian Church. It gives me a realization that I am here because God loves me and wants me to have joy. He didn't create me so that I could worship Him but that I could become like Him. He has provided a means by which every single solitary human being who has ever lived can rejoin Him and their loved-ones for eternity. The LDS concept of Heaven is the most universal of any Christian Church. According to our belief, hardly anyone will end up in Hell. I believe in the Mormon God because He's the one that works for me. If Mormonism isn't true, it should be. There is no more beautiful religion in the world. As far as the Book of Mormon goes, I believe it's true because I've studied it and am convinced that, on a number of levels, it would have been impossible for Joseph Smith to have merely written it. It's not my intention to argue the point with you. You asked a question. I just answered it. Please try to show a little bit of respect in your response.

i will in fact do my best to be respectful on this one, because you truly gave me an honest from the heart answer it seems. what i take from your answer however is that you make your decisions simply based on convenience and what feels and looks best to you. its all about being satisfied and feeling good....of course you dont want to just worship a superior being, you want to be superior yourself. who doesnt right?? you believe in convenience. and you use that same reasoning with denying that the black ban was authorized by god. because you were raised in different times under different conditions and it just doesnt seem right, correct?

the problem is, those prophets who claim the ban came from god were also doing what felt right. to them, racism was just another part of life. and they really believed the ban came from god. so then who are you to say their beliefs are wrong and yours are right? who are you to say that what you believe in is god inspired but what they believed in was not?

and what about your values? you dont agree with homosexuality, do you? well, i got news for you, sooner or later the lds will accept gays and lesbians, values will change and they will look back at your generation, just like you looked back at poligamy, and say that sexual intolerance was not from god but rather human bigotry, because god loves everyone of every race and sexual orientation. what will you say then? will you say they are wrong? or will you admit you are wrong??

mormonism looks exremely fickle to me

 

[Katzpur]

Personally, I believe that God banned Black men from the Priesthood until 1978. God lifted the ban in 1978. Thanks be to God that he did so.

Hi, Scott. It's good to see you again. It's been awile and you've been missed.

Could you explain why, if it was God rather than men who withheld the priesthood from Blacks, we have no record of this revelation -- a revelation which Joseph Smith must either have been unaware of or have chosen to ignore.

 

[Katzpur]

The following practices, based on race, are not immoral -

1. Refusal to cast a Black man to play the role of Abraham Lincoln in a major movie production.
2. Refusal to cast a White man to play the role of Martin Luther King, Jr. in a major movie production.
3. Peter refusing to take the gospel to the Gentiles, because God had so ordained for centuries, until Peter received the revelation to reverse the practice.
4. The LDS church denying the Priesthood to Black men, because of the revelations of God, until the new revelation was received in 1978.

I agree with numbers 1 and 2. I disagree with numbers 3 and 4. However, since it's getting late and I've got to be up early tomorrow, I'll save my explanation until later. I would, however, appreciate it, if you have the time between now and then, if you could tell me where I can find the revelation denying the priesthood to Black men. Unlike you, I don't believe we have a record of any such revelation or that there actually was one.

 

[Autodidact]

Hi, Scott. It's good to see you again. It's been awile and you've been missed.

Could you explain why, if it was God rather than men who withheld the priesthood from Blacks, we have no record of this revelation -- a revelation which Joseph Smith must either have been unaware of or have chosen to ignore.

Wasn't it revealed to Brigham Young?

 

[Watchmen]

But the previous policy was racist.

So what? Quit hiding the ball and tell us why it matters today that the previous policy was racist.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't know, just discussing. No set agenda. What are the implications of God's prophets perpetuating a racist policy for 130 years? What does this mean for Mormons? How do Mormons deal with that problem? It's interesting, once you get to the point of acknowledging what you're dealing with.

 

[Watchmen]

So, Mormons, does it amaze you when people accuse the Mormon Church of racism, since we have just established that it practiced a racist policy for 150 years?

Yes. It amazes that those ignoramuses accuse the Church of racism because it was a policy that (1) was never doctrine, (2) was not in place when the Church began, and (3) is not in place today. By your logic, people should continue to consider the US government racist.

 

[Watchmen]

I don't know, just discussing. No set agenda. What are the implications of God's prophets perpetuating a racist policy for 130 years? What does this mean for Mormons? How do Mormons deal with that problem? It's interesting, once you get to the point of acknowledging what you're dealing with.

I believe you're using the word "perpetuate" incorrectly. To perpetuate something means to make it last indefinitely. 130 years (if that's even an accurate number) is not perpetual.

As for how to deal with the problem...I see no problem to deal with because God already dealt with it himself in 1978.

 

[Watchmen]

Wasn't it revealed to Brigham Young?

Do you have a link to the revelation revealed to Brigham Young?

 

[Autodidact]

Wait, you don't agree that the Church was racist for discriminating against Black men for 130 years? You think only an ignoramus would think that was racist?

What difference does it make to the person being denied the right if it's doctrine or not? They're still denied the right.

O.K., it wasn't in place at the beginning of the end, only for most of the Church's history. Are you honestly trying to assert that means it wasn't racist?

Actually, you and I know the U.S. government was racist by Constitution for a hundred years; that's not controversial. But then, it doesn't claim to be a product of divine revelation, so it's not as big a problem for us.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe you're using the word "perpetuate" incorrectly. To perpetuate something means to make it last indefinitely. 130 years (if that's even an accurate number) is not perpetual.

That's interesting, thanks.

As for how to deal with the problem...I see no problem to deal with because God already dealt with it himself in 1978.

So you don't see any problem with 130 years of racist discrimination by divine revelation? Do you think racism is wrong? Or do you not think it was racist?

 

[Watchmen]

Wait, you don't agree that the Church was racist for discriminating against Black men for 130 years? You think only an ignoramus would think that was racist?

What difference does it make to the person being denied the right if it's doctrine or not? They're still denied the right.

O.K., it wasn't in place at the beginning of the end, only for most of the Church's history. Are you honestly trying to assert that means it wasn't racist?

Actually, you and I know the U.S. government was racist by Constitution for a hundred years; that's not controversial. But then, it doesn't claim to be a product of divine revelation, so it's not as big a problem for us.

I already said the policy was racist. My point is that a person is an ignoramus to dwell on it today given that the policy was already corrected.

As for you concerns about our divine revelation, I'm still waiting for a link to Brigham Young's revelation. Normally, I find God's revelation to His latter-day prophets in the Doctrine & Covenants, but I can't find it. Do you have the section number? Or is it an official declaration? Ironically, the last revelation we have in the Doctrine & Covenants is the revelation extending the blessings of the Priesthood to all worthy males. Humph. I wish that revelation would have included a reference to Brigham Young's so I'd know what exactly was being overturned.

 

[Watchmen]

That's interesting, thanks.

Your welcome.

So you don't see any problem with 130 years of racist discrimination by divine revelation? Do you think racism is wrong? Or do you not think it was racist?

I do see a problem with racism. I do think racism is wrong. Do I think the racist policy of the LDS church was divinely inspired? No. So, I'll ask again, can you link me to that evasive revelation Brigham Young received?

 

[Katzpur]

i will in fact do my best to be respectful on this one, because you truly gave me an honest from the heart answer it seems. what i take from your answer however is that you make your decisions simply based on convenience and what feels and looks best to you.

I have to make my decisions based on what feels right to me. It wouldn't make sense for me to make them based on any other criteria. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to make your decisions based on what feels right to me. We each have to find our own path and trust in a loving and merciful God.

its all about being satisfied and feeling good....of course you dont want to just worship a superior being, you want to be superior yourself. who doesnt right??

I'm not sure I understand this statement, so rather than second-guessing you, I'll just ask you to rephrase it before I reply.

you believe in convenience. and you use that same reasoning with denying that the black ban was authorized by god. because you were raised in different times under different conditions and it just doesnt seem right, correct?

Again, I'm not quite sure I'm following you. I believe that the men who authorized the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood were not acting under the direction of God. I do not believe He authorized the ban. I do believe, however, that He has given us our free agency. Having free agency is a 100% guarantee that we will make mistakes. And men chosen by God to lead His Church are not immune from making mistakes.

the problem is, those prophets who claim the ban came from god were also doing what felt right. to them, racism was just another part of life. and they really believed the ban came from god. so then who are you to say their beliefs are wrong and yours are right? who are you to say that what you believe in is god inspired but what they believed in was not?

I can't speak for them, but I won't judge them either. It would be impossible for me to say to what degree they felt that the ban was justified and to what degree they were simply products of a culture that was, in fact, racist. I really do try not to judge other people when it is impossible for me to see what is in their hearts. All I can do is express my opinion, and my opinion is that the ban against Blacks holding the priesthood was a result of an error on the part of good but fallible men.

and what about your values? you dont agree with homosexuality, do you? well, i got news for you, sooner or later the lds will accept gays and lesbians, values will change and they will look back at your generation, just like you looked back at poligamy, and say that sexual intolerance was not from god but rather human bigotry, because god loves everyone of every race and sexual orientation. what will you say then? will you say they are wrong? or will you admit you are wrong??

Well, we'll see if your news for me pans out. Quite frankly, I believe it's impossible for you to predict with any degree of accuracy what direction the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will take in the future with regards to homosexuality. It would be impossible for me to predict and I certainly have a better understanding of the way the Church does things than you do.

But, setting your prediction aside and responding to your question about my values... More than just about anything else, I value integrity. That means standing up for what I believe, regardless of the consequences. It means being who I claim to be and not simply taking the easy way out by pretending to agree with people I really don't agree with. It means opening myself up to criticism from my fellow Latter-day Saints and ridicule from people who think my religion is a huge joke.

I don't believe we choose to whom we are going to be sexually attracted. I know I never sat down and weighed the pros and cons of heterosexuality over homosexuality and then decided to be straight. I liked boys a long time before anybody ever told me that's who I was "supposed to" like. I do believe we choose our behavior and our actions, however, and I don't believe God approves of sexual intimacy between people of the same sex. That said, I believe that what two consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own bedroom is between those two people and God. It's none of my business. I do not personally oppose gay marriage because I believe all people are entitled to equal civil rights under the laws of the land. I've said on other threads that I don't believe that denying someone his civil rights is going to change his sexual behavior one single bit. If God doesn't like what people are doing in their bedrooms, He will have His say sooner or later. I've got me to worry about, not someone else.

You see, you've judged me wrongly on that account. If you knew me, you might find that I am really pretty different than what you imagine me to be.

mormonism looks exremely fickle to me

Okay.