mormonism racist?

[Autodidact]

Sorry about mixing up the two threads, but what do the standard works say about same-sex marriage?

 

[DeepShadow]

It seems to be that the problem is if you accept that the Church, Prophet and First Presidency can all be wrong about God and His commandments, then you can't rely on them now for guidance on the same. It raises a problem with the idea of ongoing revelation as a reliable source of divine inspiration.

But I'm not relying on their revelation. I'm relying on mine.

"Yes, all the prophets from Brigham Young to the one just before me were wrong, but I'm right and divinely inspired, trust me on this." Doesn't really work.

Of course it doesn't! That why I don't "trust [him] on this." I asked God, and follow what He said.

Is the prophet inspired by revelation directly from God, or isn't he? Or is he sometimes and sometimes not, and even he can't tell the difference? If you wanted to know whether something was doctrine or not, wouldn't you ask the First Presidency?

ROTFL!!! Hell no I wouldn't ask the First Presidency! I'd ask God!

Shouldn't they be relied on to say what is and is not doctrine?

They should be relied on to do their best, and keep failures to a minimum. When they do fail--as they must, being human--then the collective personal revelation of the Church will take up the slack.

If not, what good are they? Shouldn't you just figure it out for yourself, and go join the FLDS if that's where you think God is leading you?

I get a LOT of good out of following them, fallible as they are. God has given me mentors, for which I am grateful.

See, I disagree with some things my church leaders say. I take those disagreements to God. God helps me find out where I'm wrong 95% of the time, and helps me be patient with their infirmities the other 5% of the time.

There's a lot of growth in that 95% Should I throw all that away because of the 5%? I don't think so. At what point should I do so? 90/10? 80/20? I've been in 80/20 situations outside of the church, and still did a LOT of growing. I'd never have given up those situations, and I don't think you would, either.

 

[Autodidact]

Isn't Warren Jeffs relying on his? On what basis can you then disagree with him?

 

[Autodidact]

My point is, you can have directly contradictory revelations, so they can't both be right.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The problem I have with this whole mindset, is that it does not take responsibility for itself. The mindset goes like this: God tells me what is right (on some issue). Sometimes, however, I *think* God tells me something, and it turns out to be totally wrong. In those cases, it was my human folly. You don't get credit when you think carefully about something and arrive at a good answer, and you get blamed for fallible human rationalization when you thoughtlessly accept a gut feeling that turns out to be wrong. It's totally backward.

So in other words, you never really have to think critically. Whatever gut feeling floats into your brain, that's from God and it needn't be questioned. If it's wrong, you'll never know it because you don't question it....you may only find out it's wrong after a lot of outside pressure. And then you'll attribute this to "man's folly" and go on making the same mistake, by pretending the thoughts and inclinations in your own head are God's. They're not. They're YOUR thoughts, and YOUR feelings. You need to take responsibility for them.

 

[DeepShadow]

Isn't Warren Jeffs relying on his? On what basis can you then disagree with him?

I don't know that Warren Jeff is relying on his own personal revelation. He could be deceived by a lying spirit, or lying entirely. Perhaps he's getting some revelation and trying to fill in the "why" too much--that seems to be a common problem!

I can only speak for myself, and what God has told me. God doesn't tell me what He's told to Warren Jeffs. Matter of fact, every time I've presumed to ask God to tell me what He told someone else, he either doesn't answer or points me to the church teachings about line of authority--i.e. I'm not entitled to revelation about others outside my stewardship.

 

[DeepShadow]

The problem I have with this whole mindset, is that it does not take responsibility for itself. The mindset goes like this: God tells me what is right (on some issue). Sometimes, however, I *think* God tells me something, and it turns out to be totally wrong. In those cases, it was my human folly. You don't get credit when you think carefully about something and arrive at a good answer, and you get blamed for fallible human rationalization when you thoughtlessly accept a gut feeling that turns out to be wrong. It's totally backward.

So in other words, you never really have to think critically. Whatever gut feeling floats into your brain, that's from God and it needn't be questioned. If it's wrong, you'll never know it because you don't question it....you may only find out it's wrong after a lot of outside pressure. And then you'll attribute this to "man's folly" and go on making the same mistake, by pretending the thoughts and inclinations in your own head are God's. They're not. They're YOUR thoughts, and YOUR feelings. You need to take responsibility for them.

On the contrary, God frequently gives me problems and tells me to handle them myself. He constantly pushes me to use critical thinking, and withholds additional revelation until I've worked things out myself.

Funny you'd say this, but we're actually commanded to study and find an answer using our own intellect, and then consult God.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

On the contrary, God frequently gives me problems and tells me to handle them myself. He constantly pushes me to use critical thinking, and withholds additional revelation until I've worked things out myself.

Funny you'd say this, but we're actually commanded to study and find an answer using our own intellect, and then consult God.

How do you consult God? Whatever the means, it's clearly an unreliable process. Because so many important LDS authorities have come to a conclusion, after much study and after a final consultation with God, and come to conclusions we now all agree are false. So we know it's very easy to be mistaken even after consulting God. So what is the point of it, except to give yourself an authority over others and a certainty you shouldn't really, truly have?

 

[tomasortega]

How do you consult God? Whatever the means, it's clearly an unreliable process. Because so many important LDS authorities have come to a conclusion, after much study and after a final consultation with God, and come to conclusions we now all agree are false. So we know it's very easy to be mistaken even after consulting God. So what is the point of it, except to give yourself an authority over others and a certainty you shouldn't really, truly have?

couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[tomasortega]

i find it mind boggling how deepshadow can honestly say god "..withholds additional revelation until I've worked things out myself." with a straight face.

HOW CONVENIENT IS IT TO SAY GOD ONLY PROVIDES HIS REVELATION AFTER YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND ON AN ISSUE. AND SOMEHOW , MIRACULOUSLY GOD'S REVELATION ALWAYS AGREES WITH YOUR DECISION.

 

[JustWondering]

Why single out Mormons, tomsortega? I am sure that passages in the Bible could just as easily have been singled out to ask if Christians are racist.

And what was written several hundred years ago is not necessarily indicative of the beliefs or behaviours of Mormons today.

Humanity is destined to detroy itself. Lets face it, we cannot get along with each other. Religion is manmade. Oblivion is our only future.

 

[Smoke]

was the book of mormon written by a racist?

Some degree of racism was practically universal among 19th-century Americans. Sometimes I think it is among 21st-century Americans, too, but maybe that's because I live in South Carolina.

 

[Smoke]

I've seen arguments here to the effect of, "how do you trust anything they say if they can make mistakes?" Non-sequitur. "Inspired" is not the same as "infallible."

But you know as well as anybody that a lot of Mormons don't make that distinction at all. Look at all the Mormons, for instance, who said that they were personally uncomfortable with Prop 8, but felt they had no choice but to support it. And from my perspective as an outsider who has a decades-long fascination with the LDS Church, it seems that the Church leadership more often than not encourages such unquestioning obedience. Not that that's peculiar to Mormons; most hierarchies religious or otherwise prefer unquestioning obedience, but the Mormon hierarchy is singularly successful at getting it. By contrast, when my koumbaro got unwelcome advice about contraception (Don't!) from the bishop, nobody said, "Well the bishop knows best." Every Orthodox Christian he knew said, "Why would you ask the bishop about that?"

One reason (though not the only one) that I have such respect for Katzpur is that she manages somehow to be a faithful member of a highly authoritarian religion and yet unapologetically think for herself, without even looking like it's difficult.

 

[tomasortega]

One reason (though not the only one) that I have such respect for Katzpur is that she manages somehow to be a faithful member of a highly authoritarian religion and yet unapologetically think for herself, without even looking like it's difficult.

if katzpur were a child of 19th century racist america, i would find it extremely difficult to imagine she would deny the black ban's divine inspiration.

its easy to look back now and condemn it. but how many mormons really stood up against the ban when it was first instated?? not too many, if any.....

and how many mormons initially stood up against poligamy??? instead the vast majority if not all mormons agreed and followed like sheep till it was not socially acceptable anylonger

and coincidentally thats exactly when god decided to shoot down some revelations of confirmation. same will happen with homosexuality. it wont be long before some mormons get revelations from god

claiming to love gays just as much as straights. how will you be able to prove they are misguided? its mormon vs mormon, prayer vs prayer, revelation vs revelation.

 

[Smoke]

its easy to look back now and condemn it. but how many mormons really stood up against the ban when it was first instated?? not too many, if any.....

Sure, but why single out the Mormons? How many white American Christians of any denomination worshiped side-by-side with black American Christians in the 19th century? Or the first half of the 20th?

and how many mormons initially stood up against poligamy??? instead the vast majority if not all mormons agreed and followed like sheep till it was not socially acceptable anylonger

I really don't think you can compare polygamy -- at least, not as it was practiced by the Mormons -- to the oppression of African-Americans.

 

[Katzpur]

if katzpur were a child of 19th century racist america, i would find it extremely difficult to imagine she would deny the black ban's divine inspiration.

It's hard to say what I'd do if I were a child of 19th century racist america, tomas, but I've always been taught that racism is abhorrent to God.

its easy to look back now and condemn it. but how many mormons really stood up against the ban when it was first instated?? not too many, if any.....

You're right, probably not a lot.

and how many mormons initially stood up against poligamy??? instead the vast majority if not all mormons agreed and followed like sheep till it was not socially acceptable anylonger

Polygamy is an entirely different matter, tomas. No man or woman was ever forced to marry into polygamy. Polygamous relationships were voluntary, and did not discriminate against anyone. And as difficult as they could be sometimes, they also had a number of real advantages for the women. For instance, very shortly after the Univerity of Utah (then the University of Deseret) opened its doors in 1850, it became co-educational. (Now that was definitely progressive in 1850!) A number of LDS women who were in polygamous marriages were able to get college degrees because there was another woman available to care for the children. It would have been impossible otherwise. If you'd like to debate the topic, though, it might be a good idea to start a new thread, as it would clearly be off topic on this one. As

and coincidentally thats exactly when god decided to shoot down some revelations of confirmation. same will happen with homosexuality. it wont be long before some mormons get revelations from god

Actually, you're wrong on this, but I don't expect you to think I know what I'm talking about, even though I've been a Mormon for over 60 years and can probably speak with a little more authority on the subject than you can.

 

[Katzpur]

One reason (though not the only one) that I have such respect for Katzpur is that she manages somehow to be a faithful member of a highly authoritarian religion and yet unapologetically think for herself, without even looking like it's difficult.

Well, you sweetheart! :hug: It's actually very, very easy for me to think for myself, because that's how I was raised. It's a lot more difficult for me to be up front about the conclusions I've come to when I'm surrounded by members of my own religion who question my faithfulness and worthiness because I disagree with them. If I know that I've got two or three fellow-Mormons backing me, it's a lot easier. Being the minority isn't anywhere near as difficult as being the ONLY one who feels a certain way. Of course you already know who it was who got me to start really thinking about same-sex marriage and helped me overcome my hesitancy to support it: you.

 

[DeepShadow]

i find it mind boggling how deepshadow can honestly say god "..withholds additional revelation until I've worked things out myself." with a straight face.

HOW CONVENIENT IS IT TO SAY GOD ONLY PROVIDES HIS REVELATION AFTER YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND ON AN ISSUE. AND SOMEHOW , MIRACULOUSLY GOD'S REVELATION ALWAYS AGREES WITH YOUR DECISION.

Please point out where I said that God always agrees with my decision. Yet again, you fail to read critically. In fact, God frequently advises the other way. Sometimes He points out a flaw I had not considered, and sometimes He just says no.

 

[DeepShadow]

Humanity is destined to detroy itself. Lets face it, we cannot get along with each other. Religion is manmade. Oblivion is our only future.

Catchy. Let's make that our slogan.

 

[tomasortega]

Please point out where I said that God always agrees with my decision. Yet again, you fail to read critically. In fact, God frequently advises the other way. Sometimes He points out a flaw I had not considered, and sometimes He just says no.

please dont ignore mr spinkle's post. he raises a great point, i would also like to know:

"How do you consult God? Whatever the means, it's clearly an unreliable process. Because so many important LDS authorities have come to a conclusion, after much study and after a final consultation with God, and come to conclusions we now all agree are false. So we know it's very easy to be mistaken even after consulting God. So what is the point of it, except to give yourself an authority over others and a certainty you shouldn't really, truly have?"

please explain how you communicate with god. does he directly speak to you? if so what voice does he have, or does he speak through your conscience? or maybe he shows you various signs?

you are saying that god sometimes points out a flaw in your decicions or thinking. how does he do that? how does he say "no"?