mormonism racist?

[Katzpur]

With my current understanding, I think it was what God wanted His prophets to do at the time. And when the ban was lifted it was what God wanted at that time.

Why do you think He wanted them to do it, Sola'lor? On something so significant, don't you think we would be able to find something in the Standard Works, probably in the Doctrine and Covenants specifically? We have no record of any revelation whatsoever, and we know for sure that Joseph Smith had ordained Black men to the priesthood. Also, would you mind keeping the following scriptures in mind as you formulate your reply:

D&C 38:26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou closed in rags and sit thou there – and looketh upon his sons and saith ‘I am just’?

D&C 78:5-6 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things, ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things.

D&C 38:24-25 And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me. And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

D&C 51:9 And let every man deal honestly, and be alike among this people, and receive alike, that ye may be one, even as I have commanded you.

D&C 88:122 Appoint among yourselves a teaches, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege.

D&C 1:20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world…

D&C 4:5And faith, hope, charity and love, with an eye single to the glory of God, qualify him for the work.

D&C 4:3 Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work…

D&C 6:4 Yea, whosoever will thrust in his sickle and reap, the same is called of God.

D&C 36:4-5 And now this calling and commandment give I unto you concerning all men – That as many as shall come before my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations…

D&C 63:57 And again, verily I say unto you, those who desire in their hearts, in meekness, to warn sinners to repentance, let them be ordained unto this power.

 

[Autodidact]

So some Mormons here believe the ban was God's will, and some do not. How do you figure out which of you is right?

 

[Sola'lor]

So some Mormons here believe the ban was God's will, and some do not. How do you figure out which of you is right?

I don't try to figure it out. I live my life the best I can with what information I have. God will take care of everything in the end. If I'm wrong and the ban was not God's will then I will accept that.

 

[Watchmen]

...

That's not a revelation - that's a discourse by Brigham Young.

 

[Watchmen]

So some Mormons here believe the ban was God's will, and some do not. How do you figure out which of you is right?

We each do our best. Why does there have to be a rigid answer? I think the best answer is that we'll all find out after we die.

 

[Sola'lor]

Why do you think He wanted them to do it, Sola'lor? On something so significant, don't you think we would be able to find something in the Standard Works, probably in the Doctrine and Covenants specifically? We have no record of any revelation whatsoever, and we know for sure that Joseph Smith had ordained Black men to the priesthood. Also, would you mind keeping the following scriptures in mind as you formulate your reply:

I'm not going to speculate on WHY God wanted to ban the priesthood. I'm not worthy enough to know God's mind on that matter. It's not the first time the priesthood was not given to certain people.

I don't know why there isn't anything mentioned in the scriptures. Of course the command to not look at pornography online isn't in the scriptures either.

I won't deny that Joseph Smith ordained "black" men. Alot of early church leaders smoke and drank too until the Word of Wisdom was revealed.

Perhaps the reason there is no revelation in the scriptures is that it really wasn't that significant at the time.

Of course I'm not a perfect person and I'm still learning so I reserve the right to change my opinion and even change it back at any time without prior notice.:angel2:

 

[Autodidact]

I don't try to figure it out. I live my life the best I can with what information I have. God will take care of everything in the end. If I'm wrong and the ban was not God's will then I will accept that.

I'm guessing you're not Black?

 

[Autodidact]

We each do our best. Why does there have to be a rigid answer? I think the best answer is that we'll all find out after we die.

There doesn't have to be any answer, let alone a rigid one. Some people are interested in the truth, and some are not. If you are not, that's your business. I think the best possibility is that you'll be dead after you die.

It's an example. It's a way of exploring some important questions that Mormons might be concerned about. Is there such a thing as continuing revelation? If so, who has it? How can we know? Whose word can you trust?

 

[Autodidact]

My impression is that after moving boulders, I finally established that there was a ban, it was official, and it was racist. After jumping through many other hoops, over more objections, when I ask Mormons to confront the implications of this for their belief system, they prefer to close their eyes, plug their ears, and think about something else. This does not surprise me. In fact, it's pretty typical of Mormon's critical thinking about their religion. At least, the ones who remain Mormon.

 

[Sola'lor]

I'm guessing you're not Black?

I'm human.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm human.

Just as I thought. I think that if it was you that was being excluded, possibly in error, you might be a little more concerned about it. But since it doesn't effect you, it doesn't matter.

Maybe I'll change my sig to the golden rule, in hopes that some Christians might pay attention.

 

[Sola'lor]

Just as I thought. I think that if it was you that was being excluded, possibly in error, you might be a little more concerned about it. But since it doesn't effect you, it doesn't matter.

Maybe I'll change my sig to the golden rule, in hopes that some Christians might pay attention.

If the prophet said for some reason I was to be excluded from something and I recieved personal confirmation from the Lord that it was His will then I would accept whatever that was.

For the record I've never seen a black person in my entire life. I've never seen a white person either although I hear some people get pretty white when they die.

 

[Autodidact]

If the prophet said for some reason I was to be excluded from something and I recieved personal confirmation from the Lord that it was His will then I would accept whatever that was.

But we're trying to talk about whether there is such a thing as personal confirmation, and whether it is something you can rely on, and you're saying you're not interested in talking about that.

For the record I've never seen a black person in my entire life. I've never seen a white person either although I hear some people get pretty white when they die.

Is this supposed to be clever in some way? You do know that these racists categories were imposed on us by, among other groups, the Mormon Church, who taught for over a century that dark skin is a mark of God's disfavor on the descendants of Cain. A subject that you don't find interesting enough to look into.

 

[Sola'lor]

But we're trying to talk about whether there is such a thing as personal confirmation, and whether it is something you can rely on, and you're saying you're not interested in talking about that.

I thought the discussion was about Mormons being racist.

Is this supposed to be clever in some way? You do know that these racists categories were imposed on us by, among other groups, the Mormon Church, who taught for over a century that dark skin is a mark of God's disfavor on the descendants of Cain. A subject that you don't find interesting enough to look into.

What the church used to teach is irrelevant to me. What it teaches now is what is important. Because what it used to teach was for those who lived back then. What it teaches now is for us today.

Yes, certain historical aspect are interesting but the "priesthood ban" is not very high on my list right now. I'm currently studying extra-biblical scriptural books including the Quran.

 

[DeepShadow]

please dont ignore mr spinkle's post.

One at a time. Please show me where I said God always agrees with me.

 

[DeepShadow]

when I ask Mormons to confront the implications of this for their belief system, they prefer to close their eyes, plug their ears, and think about something else.

Did you think that's what I was doing? Shame on you.

 

[Autodidact]

I thought the discussion was about Mormons being racist.

Not Mormons, Mormonism. We've established that it was, at least for the first 130 years. Now we're talking about the implications of that.

What the church used to teach is irrelevant to me. What it teaches now is what is important. Because what it used to teach was for those who lived back then. What it teaches now is for us today.

And it was right both times? It was right to deny the priesthood, and equally right to grant it?

Was this right?

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion.

How about this:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so"

this?

"Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin [sic] of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death"

this?

Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. Along with all races and peoples he is receiving here what he merits as a result of the long pre-mortal probation in the presence of the Lord. The principle is the same as will apply when all men are judged according to their mortal works and are awarded varying statuses in the life hereafter.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_R._McConkie#cite_note-horne-3

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race."

-Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 101

Are African-Americans an "inferior race?" Were they in the 1950's?

Were any of these statements ever right?

 

[Autodidact]

Did you think that's what I was doing? Shame on you.

I don't think you've been around lately. Several other Mormons have opined that they don't know or care about the matter. I'm responding to that.

But for you, as I get it, your response is that it doesn't bother you if the prophet is wrong, since you have your own direct access to God's views. But, as I pointed out:

if two people's revelations contradict each other, they can't both be right.
If two prophet's statements contradict each other, they can't both be right.
If the prophets are wrong about their revelations, how can you be confident that you're not equally wrong?

And now we see several posters who think the prophets' racist statements, revelations, and official positions were correct. How can we resolve the issue? How can we tell which of you is right?

For example: Are African-Americans a cursed, ugly, inferior race, born to be servants and denied full participation in the afterlife? Or are they equal in merit, deserving of equal rights and respect to European-Americans? If the latter, then how come God didn't point that out to the many prophets who were preaching the opposite?

 

[Autodidact]

My (current) gripe, DeepShadow, is that when I finally establish the facts of the matter, after 60 pages, the Mormons then in the thread suddenly decided that the whole matter, which we've been discussing earnestly up till now, just doesn't matter. It's yet another way to avoid confronting the uncomfortable facts.

 

[Watchmen]

There doesn't have to be any answer, let alone a rigid one. Some people are interested in the truth, and some are not. If you are not, that's your business. I think the best possibility is that you'll be dead after you die.

It's an example. It's a way of exploring some important questions that Mormons might be concerned about. Is there such a thing as continuing revelation? If so, who has it? How can we know? Whose word can you trust?

Oh - I'm interested in truth, but I recognize that the truth is there isn't always answers.