mormonism racist?

[Watchmen]

My impression is that after moving boulders, I finally established that there was a ban, it was official, and it was racist. After jumping through many other hoops, over more objections, when I ask Mormons to confront the implications of this for their belief system, they prefer to close their eyes, plug their ears, and think about something else. This does not surprise me. In fact, it's pretty typical of Mormon's critical thinking about their religion. At least, the ones who remain Mormon.

From my perspective there was never a question that there was a ban...that it was official...or that it was racist. My issue is that you've never shown it was a revelation that instituted this policy. I've asked you time and again for the revelation and the best you can do is point to a discourse given by Brigham Young. That's not revelation. So, excuse me if I don't fall lock-step in line with your point of view, but the fact is, you've failed to show anything worth thinking about because you can't point to a revelation.

 

[Watchmen]

My (current) gripe, DeepShadow, is that when I finally establish the facts of the matter, after 60 pages, the Mormons then in the thread suddenly decided that the whole matter, which we've been discussing earnestly up till now, just doesn't matter. It's yet another way to avoid confronting the uncomfortable facts.

I've never changed my position - I've been asking for a revelation from the early pages from this thread. You choose to ignore me and start posting in conclusory language. You can't come to the conclusion that revelation is unreliable without showing me the revelation that began the practice.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

That's not revelation. So, excuse me if I don't fall lock-step in line with your point of view, but the fact is, you've failed to show anything worth thinking about because you can't point to a revelation.

So does this mean, in your opinion, that nothing the LDS Church says which is not confirmed revelation is worth thinking about? For example, when the Presidency issues a letter calling upon Mormons to support Prop 8, this should not have been worth thinking about because it was not official Doctrine/revelation, it could have been bogus just like the priesthood ban was?

By the way....is it just me, or are my questions being ignored?

 

[Autodidact]

Oh - I'm interested in truth, but I recognize that the truth is there isn't always answers.

Especially if you try really hard not to look.

 

[Autodidact]

From my perspective there was never a question that there was a ban...that it was official...or that it was racist. My issue is that you've never shown it was a revelation that instituted this policy. I've asked you time and again for the revelation and the best you can do is point to a discourse given by Brigham Young. That's not revelation. So, excuse me if I don't fall lock-step in line with your point of view, but the fact is, you've failed to show anything worth thinking about because you can't point to a revelation.

So when Brigham Young spoke as a prophet in the name of Jesus Christ he was...what?

 

[Watchmen]

So does this mean, in your opinion, that nothing the LDS Church says which is not confirmed revelation is worth thinking about? For example, when the Presidency issues a letter calling upon Mormons to support Prop 8, this should not have been worth thinking about because it was not official Doctrine/revelation, it could have been bogus just like the priesthood ban was?

By the way....is it just me, or are my questions being ignored?

I never said that.

 

[Watchmen]

So when Brigham Young spoke as a prophet in the name of Jesus Christ he was...what?

Speaking in the name of Jesus Christ is done by hundreds, if not thousands of Mormons every single week. That doesn't mean its revelation.

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., let's look at it differently. Let's say no Mormon leader ever had a revelation that they should treat African-americans in a racist manner. Sounds good to me, since I don't believe anyone ever had a divine revelation about anything. Cool.

So for 130 years they constructed a church policy (and enacted legislation) in Utah that denied the priesthood, enacted slavery, and taught that African-Americans were inferior and not entitled to the same rights or religious benefits as white americans. If you really read the sources I cited, they enforced this policy down to a minute level, for example, denying Temple marriage to people who had a single African-American great-grandparent. In particular, they fought vociferously against inter-racial marriage. (sound familiar) And you believe (although sola doesn't) that this was all wrong.

So what can we conclude from that scenario? These leaders are charged by God with running His church in accord with His wishes. They screw that up badly for a long time. Finally, after 130 years, He gives them a revelation to change that. What does that tell us about the Mormon church? Is it built in a sound foundation?

 

[Watchmen]

O.K., let's look at it differently. Let's say no Mormon leader ever had a revelation that they should treat African-americans in a racist manner. Sounds good to me, since I don't believe anyone ever had a divine revelation about anything. Cool.

So for 130 years they constructed a church policy (and enacted legislation) in Utah that denied the priesthood, enacted slavery, and taught that African-Americans were inferior and not entitled to the same rights or religious benefits as white americans. If you really read the sources I cited, they enforced this policy down to a minute level, for example, denying Temple marriage to people who had a single African-American great-grandparent. In particular, they fought vociferously against inter-racial marriage. (sound familiar) And you believe (although sola doesn't) that this was all wrong.

So what can we conclude from that scenario? These leaders are charged by God with running His church in accord with His wishes. They screw that up badly for a long time. Finally, after 130 years, He gives them a revelation to change that. What does that tell us about the Mormon church? Is it built in a sound foundation?

It tells us that the Church is run by mere mortals doing the best they can and when they can't figure things out for themselves God will step in and give a course correction every now and then. Because they were wrong about black men and the priesthood does that mean they are wrong about everything? Of course not. Does it mean they make mistakes? Of course. So how can we rely on them? By following the exact same principle they do: we do the best we can and when we can't figure things out for ourselves God will step in and give us a course correction every now and then. You apparently find this outrageous - I don't. At the end of the day, each Mormon has to ask him/herself whether staying with the Church is a net positive or a net gain. For me, despite my frequent disagreements with the Church, it is a net gain.

 

[AlsoAnima]

So what can we conclude from that scenario? These leaders are charged by God with running His church in accord with His wishes. They screw that up badly for a long time. Finally, after 130 years, He gives them a revelation to change that. What does that tell us about the Mormon church? Is it built in a sound foundation?

I suppose it says that the Mormon church, like every government, and religious instutution that I know of, was built on ideas more complex than could be understood by the people who ran it.

Plus, you know, it is in America. The only reason you know what 'race' is is because the idea was formed by American people. ((Race becomes so much different when you leave America.))

 

[tomasortega]

It tells us that the Church is run by mere mortals doing the best they can and when they can't figure things out for themselves God will step in and give a course correction every now and then. .

well either all the prophets LIED back then and god didnt step in at all, or he stepped in and gave a FALSE revelation. which is it???

Because they were wrong about black men and the priesthood does that mean they are wrong about everything? .

because they were wrong, it shows that they CAN BE WRONG, even with god's intervention.

and that opens up a giant can of worms. how do you know what they have or havent been wrong about so far? how do you know that joseph smith wasnt wrong? and mormonism shouldnt exist in the first place? how do you know joseph smith was not simply influenced or fooled by a bad spirit and mormonism is actually against the will of god?? because clearly flaws are possible in the mormon church.

and since we all agree that the black ban was not from god.... what happened to all the thousands of mormons who were misguided and lived their lifes as racists AGAINST THE WILL OF GOD? DID THEY ALL PERISH IN HELL BECAUSE OF HUMAN ERROR? what if 50 years from now prophets get revelations from god making homosexuality acceptable? what will happen to all the mormons of today condemning homosexuality, against the will of god?

WHATS THE POINT IN FOLLOWING THE MORMON CHURCH AND ITS DOCTRINES WHEN THEY ARE EVERCHANGING AND SOME TURN OUT TO BE FALSE???


mormon church disclaimer:

"whats god's will today, might not be god's will tomorrow, but it might again be the day after tomorrow. oh, and also, some of our doctrines that we now claim are god inspired, might turn out to be entirely false in the near future..... but hey, follow us, because we have all the answers to life's misteries. AND GOD IS ON OUR SIDE (EVERY NOW AND THEN)

 

[AlsoAnima]

WHATS THE POINT OF FOLLOWING THE MORMON CHURCH AND ITS DOCTRINES WHEN THEY ARE EVERCHANGING AND SOME TURN OUT TO BE FALSE???

Have you considered anger management?

 

[Watchmen]

well either all the prophets LIED back then and god didnt step in at all, or he stepped in and gave a FALSE revelation. which is it???

either/or fallacy

because they were wrong, it shows that they CAN BE WRONG, even with god's intervention.

and that opens up a giant can of worms. how do you know what they have or havent been wrong about so far? how do you know that joseph smith wasnt wrong? and mormonism shouldnt exist in the first place? how do you know joseph smith was not simply influenced or fooled by a bad spirit and mormonism is actually against the will of god?? because clearly flaws are possible in the mormon church.

and since we all agree that the black ban was not from god.... what happened to all the thousands of mormons who were misguided and lived their lifes as racists AGAINST THE WILL OF GOD? DID THEY ALL PERISH IN HELL BECAUSE OF HUMAN ERROR? what if 50 years from now prophets get revelations from god making homosexuality acceptable? what will happen to all the mormons of today condemning homosexuality, against the will of god?

WHATS THE POINT IN FOLLOWING THE MORMON CHURCH AND ITS DOCTRINES WHEN THEY ARE EVERCHANGING AND SOME TURN OUT TO BE FALSE???


mormon church disclaimer:

"whats god's will today, might not be god's will tomorrow, but it might again be the day after tomorrow. oh, and also, some of our doctrines that we now claim are god inspired, might turn out to be entirely false in the near future..... but hey, follow us, because we have all the answers to life's misteries. AND GOD IS ON OUR SIDE (EVERY NOW AND THEN)

from day one, your posts were never worthy of response.

 

[TashaN]

**Mod Advisory**

Please refrain from posting off-topic comments or personal ones, otherwise, the next time we see that we will have to take action.
​

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not going to speculate on WHY God wanted to ban the priesthood.

That's fine, but you are speculating that He authorized the ban.

Alot of early church leaders smoke and drank too until the Word of Wisdom was revealed.

I agree. But we know that the Word of Wisdom was revealed. We have a record of it. If it was just heresay, we could assume that it was put into effect due to a decision that was made independent of revelation.

Perhaps the reason there is no revelation in the scriptures is that it really wasn't that significant at the time.

How could denying someone the blessings of the priesthood ever not be significant?

Of course I'm not a perfect person and I'm still learning so I reserve the right to change my opinion and even change it back at any time without prior notice.:angel2:

Well, we're together on that one. I don't ever want to get to the point where I am so closed-minded that I can't admit I was wrong about something.

 

[Katzpur]

So does this mean, in your opinion, that nothing the LDS Church says which is not confirmed revelation is worth thinking about? For example, when the Presidency issues a letter calling upon Mormons to support Prop 8, this should not have been worth thinking about because it was not official Doctrine/revelation, it could have been bogus just like the priesthood ban was?

We're always supposed to pray for confirmation of the truth, and I'd say that anything the First Presidency says is "worth thinking about." You're mixing apples and oranges in comparing the Proposition 8 issue with the priesthood ban. I hope you're not going to drag that topic into this discussion.

 

[Katzpur]

have you considered anger management?

Nice.

 

[tomasortega]

either/or fallacy.

really? its not an either or fallacy when no other options are possible. just like pregnancy, you either are or are not... but since you seem to think there are other conclusions to the mormon churche's racist black ban. name them so we can discuss them.

either way we both know this conversation wont go in your favor. an error has been made, and someone is at fault. its either god or the mormon church. now we both know its not god because 1. you believe god is goodnatured, perfect and omniscient and 2. i dont believe god exists. so there is only one other option left. the mormon church and its prophets.

from day one, your posts were never worthy of response.

what a lame duck response. youve suffered major ownage but your pride keeps dragging you back for more. youre all out of arguments(not that youve ever had any, you were merely hanging on for dear life, trying to delay the inevitable) so you throw in an ad hominem and pray it sticks. how embarrassing.

 

[Watchmen]

really? its not an either or fallacy when no other options are possible. just like pregnancy, you either are or are not... but since you seem to think there are other conclusions to the mormon churche's racist black ban. name them so we can discuss them.

either way we both know this conversation wont go in your favor. an error has been made, and someone is at fault. its either god or the mormon church. now we both know its not god because 1. you believe god is goodnatured, perfect and omniscient and 2. i dont believe god exists. so there is only one other option left. the mormon church and its prophets.




what a lame duck response. youve suffered major ownage but your pride keeps dragging you back for more. youre all out of arguments(not that youve ever had any, you were merely hanging on for dear life, trying to delay the inevitable) so you throw in an ad hominem and pray it sticks. how embarrassing.

Why don't you read the OP (or any of your other posts for that matter) and take some time to think about how people might respond to you.

 

[tomasortega]

Why don't you read the OP (or any of your other posts for that matter) and take some time to think about how people might respond to you.

you are still avoiding the topic at hand while cluttering this thread with off topic spam. the mod has already given you a warning. get back on point or swallow your pride and move on.