mormonism racist?

[maklelan]

very pubescent how you attempt to justify the bigotry in mormonism by pointing out bigotry in christianity and judaism.

I'm not justifying it at all, I'm contextualizing it. Please learn the difference.

like a little 4th grader justifying his mocking of a mentally retarded classmate by saying "but everyone else did it!"

besides, you are only destroying your own argument by pointing out bigotry in the bible because mormons also believe in the absurdities of the old and new testament. mormons simply took it to the next level in lala land by adding their own book to the mix

I'm not destroying any argument because I'm not making any argument. I'm simply correcting false impressions being spread by rather naive posters. I'll thank you not to make assumptions about my beliefs, as well.

 

[DeepShadow]

very pubescent how you attempt to justify the bigotry in mormonism by pointing out bigotry in christianity and judaism.

That's a tu quoque fallacy, when you point out that something is okay because others did it. The problem is, a tu quoque is only valid if the conditions are the same, and then only when they are both bad. That is, it may not justify your actions, but if your opponent resorts to an ad hoc to get out of a common condemnation, you have debating leverage.

The problem is, you haven't established that the Biblical examples are, in fact, racism. The entire Isrealite nation was considered a single race, so the fact that a small subset among this "chosen people" were ordained to the priesthood is, in fact, relevant.

If you can show that the refusal to ordain a non-Levite was racism, you'll have grounds for your accusations.

Regarding your original post, what do you make of my comments, that the most righteous group in the Book of Mormon was dark skinned, and the most wicked group was light skinned?

 

[Autodidact]

I think this is the thread where someone said (pages ago) that Jon Krakaur said the reason the people of Illinois were hostile to the Mormons was their purported abolutionism. I'm listening to it right now and in fact he never mentions any such supposed abolutionism. According to him, it was pure fear of theocracy.

 

[Watchmen]

It's in the book. I just read it about a month or so ago. Have you listened to the whole thing again? I don't have a copy, but when one is available I'll point you to chapter, page, paragraph...whatever. But I suppose you'll just find some problem with that too.

 

[Autodidact]

Well I just got through Smith being killed, and all he talks about is fear of theocracy and the time he destroyed the rival newspaper. Nothing about any purported abolitionism or not. The" problem that I'm having with it" as you put it is that is not what it says. (It's just a coincidence that I happen to be listening to this book right now; I wasn't trying to fact check.)

 

[DeepShadow]

Of course, the burden of proof is on Watchmen; you can't prove the reference isn't there. I'm assuming the copy you are listening to is unabridged?

 

[tomasortega]

That's a tu quoque fallacy, when you point out that something is okay because others did it. The problem is, a tu quoque is only valid if the conditions are the same, and then only when they are both bad. That is, it may not justify your actions, but if your opponent resorts to an ad hoc to get out of a common condemnation, you have debating leverage.

The problem is, you haven't established that the Biblical examples are, in fact, racism. The entire Isrealite nation was considered a single race, so the fact that a small subset among this "chosen people" were ordained to the priesthood is, in fact, relevant.

If you can show that the refusal to ordain a non-Levite was racism, you'll have grounds for your accusations.

thanks for that definition.

i am not claiming the bible contains racism, in fact the bible includes pretty much every other form of bigotry except for racism in my opinion. so my point was not specifically on racism . it was on bigotry in general, found in both, the bible and the book of mormon. given that mormons also believe in the bible, there is no point in justifying or downplaying ridiculous mormon beliefs by pointing out they are not any crazier than those of the bible. its like a man who believes in both, the flying purple pony and floating green pig making the case for his belief in the pig by saying "yeah, well its not any crazier than believing in the pony". whats the point? the man only insulted himself with that silly argument.

Regarding your original post, what do you make of my comments, that the most righteous group in the Book of Mormon was dark skinned, and the most wicked group was light skinned?

what do i make of that? well, first id have to say that i havent read the book of mormon so i can not personally confirm that your claim is correct....


....but taking your word for it, what do i think of the book of mormon claiming people dark skin are righteous while people of light skin are wicked?? UMM, UMM, my thoughts are the same as in my OP............. ITS RACISM! since when are people considered righteous or wicked based on something they have no control over, such as skincolor?

thats what this thread is all about, mormonism's whole obsession with skin pigmentation. how do you explain this bigotry?

2 NEPHI 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them

God cursed the Lamanites in this passage with dark skin.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IF RACE AND SKIN COLOR REALLY DOES NOT MATTER WHY IS IT EVEN MENTIONED? AND WHY AS A CURSING? and how the heck can a well spoken, seemingly well educated person such as yourself believe that a whole race of people turned dark because some unseen superior being threw a tantrum???

 

[DeepShadow]

there is no point in justifying or downplaying ridiculous mormon beliefs by pointing out they are not any crazier than those of the bible.

If that were the argument at hand, this would be relevant. It's not. Let's restate the argument as clearly as possible:

Is it "racism" to assign a special role to a single family, and then have that family serve extended family that are not allowed in this role ?

....but taking your word for it, what do i think of the book of mormon claiming people dark skin are righteous while people of light skin are wicked??

Oh, for the love of pete, we need to break this down further, if you haven't read the book. Let's try this again:

Most righteous---People of Ammon---dark skinned
Start good, turn bad---Nephites---light skinned
Start bad, turn good---Lamanites---dark skinned
Most wicked---Gadianton robbers---light skinned

So the race issue isn't as cut-and-dried as your few verses would make it seem. The Book of Mormon has good and bad of every color, and it shows that people change, too.

God cursed the Lamanites in this passage with dark skin.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IF RACE AND SKIN COLOR REALLY DOES NOT MATTER WHY IS IT EVEN MENTIONED?

As I already said, much of the Book of Mormon has light-skinned narrators, who frankly admit that they are racist. You are quoting from an edited summary of the Lehite history. When this "curse" is explained later in greater detail, it's explained that God changed the Lamanites (or allowed them to change) so that the Nephites would not intermarry with unbelievers. Their biases of individual events does not change the fact that the overall message of the book is that God doesn't care about skin color. He cares about what is in your heart.

"For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."

 

[Autodidact]

Since Smith was "translating" for 19th century Americans, why did he "translate" into faux 16th century English?

 

[Autodidact]

O.K., the basketball thing was a joking exaggeration. But college sports did enter into it, among other factors.

Anyway, I can't for the life of me think of a non-racist reason to exclude a race from full participation in a Church.

 

[DeepShadow]

Start your own thread, AD. It's not relevant here.

 

[DeepShadow]

O.K., the basketball thing was a joking exaggeration. But college sports did enter into it, among other factors.

Anyway, I can't for the life of me think of a non-racist reason to exclude a race from full participation in a Church.

Ummmm, wrong thread?

 

[DeepShadow]

The Levite thing seems especially relevant here, so I'm going to take it further.

Say Sunstone gets a visit from God, and God tells Sunstone to lead RF on a special mission for Him. As part of this, God tells Sunstone to ordain Cardero as the official RF high priest. As part of Cardero's duties, he needs to train a replacement. Because the high priest duties are especially demanding and complex, Cardero is called by God to train his own children for their entire lives, and then select his replacement from among them. Those who are not called to replace Cardero can serve in other priesthood offices.

Fast forward a couple hundred years. Each of us has about a thousand posterity. Cardero's descendents--and only Cardero's descendents--constitute the entire priesthood.

Fast forward another several centuries. Same situation, only now it's half a million posterity each. Cardero's descendents are still the only ones who get to be priests.

Fast forward again, a thousand years or so. Couple million each. Priesthood still exclusive.

Again. Hundred million each. Priesthood still exclusive.

Finally, guided by God, the righteous of RF take over the world. Sunstonians get Europe, Katzpurians and Lunamoths get Africa, Watchmen gets Japan, and the rest gets divied up in a pleasant game of RISK. The millions of Carderites, so as to serve the community, are distributed evenly throughout the world, still holding the priesthood exclusively.

So the question is, at what point is this exclusivity of the priesthood racism?

 

[Autodidact]

The Levite thing seems especially relevant here, so I'm going to take it further.

Say Sunstone gets a visit from God, and God tells Sunstone to lead RF on a special mission for Him. As part of this, God tells Sunstone to ordain Cardero as the official RF high priest. As part of Cardero's duties, he needs to train a replacement. Because the high priest duties are especially demanding and complex, Cardero is called by God to train his own children for their entire lives, and then select his replacement from among them. Those who are not called to replace Cardero can serve in other priesthood offices.

Fast forward a couple hundred years. Each of us has about a thousand posterity. Cardero's descendents--and only Cardero's descendents--constitute the entire priesthood.

Fast forward another several centuries. Same situation, only now it's half a million posterity each. Cardero's descendents are still the only ones who get to be priests.

Fast forward again, a thousand years or so. Couple million each. Priesthood still exclusive.

Again. Hundred million each. Priesthood still exclusive.

Finally, guided by God, the righteous of RF take over the world. Sunstonians get Europe, Katzpurians and Lunamoths get Africa, Watchmen gets Japan, and the rest gets divied up in a pleasant game of RISK. The millions of Carderites, so as to serve the community, are distributed evenly throughout the world, still holding the priesthood exclusively.

So the question is, at what point is this exclusivity of the priesthood racism?

At the point where you can be a Carderist but not share full Carderism, because you're the wrong race.

In many ways Mormonism strikes me as a throwback to more primitive tribal religions, with its emphasis on reproduction and blood lines.

 

[Sola'lor]

Finally, guided by God, the righteous of RF take over the world. Sunstonians get Europe, Katzpurians and Lunamoths get Africa, Watchmen gets Japan, and the rest gets divied up in a pleasant game of RISK. The millions of Carderites, so as to serve the community, are distributed evenly throughout the world, still holding the priesthood exclusively.

I'll have you know I haven't lost a game of Risk in years! BWAHAHAHA!

 

[tomasortega]

If that were the argument at hand, this would be relevant. It's not. Let's restate the argument as clearly as possible:

my argument was directed towards mclelan's post, to point out the ineffectiveness of his initial post... for some reason you jumped in and made it about race, and then you attack straw men with this:

Is it "racism" to assign a special role to a single family, and then have that family serve extended family that are not allowed in this role ?."

i never set out to prove the bible is racist so as to tie it to mormonism. a family is not a race. sounds more like an aristocracy to me.

Oh, for the love of pete, we need to break this down further, if you haven't read the book. Let's try this again

Most righteous---People of Ammon---dark skinned
Start good, turn bad---Nephites---light skinned
Start bad, turn good---Lamanites---dark skinned
Most wicked---Gadianton robbers---light skinned

So the race issue isn't as cut-and-dried as your few verses would make it seem. The Book of Mormon has good and bad of every color, and it shows that people change, too.:.

loooool once again you prove my point. its all about skin pigmentation. the book of mormon portrays god to have a skin fetish. if you are a bad little human, god throws a tantrum and changes your skin color.

As I already said, much of the Book of Mormon has light-skinned narrators, who frankly admit that they are racist. ."

well thank you very much. so then you agree. the book of mormon is racist. thats what this thread is all about.

You are quoting from an edited summary of the Lehite history. When this "curse" is explained later in greater detail, it's explained that God changed the Lamanites (or allowed them to change) so that the Nephites would not intermarry with unbelievers. Their biases of individual events does not change the fact that the overall message of the book is that God doesn't care about skin color. He cares about what is in your heart.."

1. you talk as if those tribes actually existed. which you have yet to prove.

2. you say god turned a whole tribe of white people black.....do you actually believe this nonsense?? please be honest. do you believe white people can miraculously turn black and vice versa?

3.then you go further and explain that the reason god turned them black is so they look UGLY and FILTHY and unappealing to the BEAUTIFUL white believing folks and wont intermarry. AS if everyone in the world knows and agrees that dark skinned people are butt ugly while light skinned people are, to quote the book of mormon "beautiful and delightsome"

4. finally you top it all off with "but hey, God doesn't care about skin color. He cares about what is in your heart." im at a loss for words.

 

[Watchmen]

O.K., the basketball thing was a joking exaggeration. But college sports did enter into it, among other factors.

Thanks for your admission, but you follow it up with another unsupported claim.

 

[Autodidact]

On the athletic front, it became an embarrassment, because Stanford University and then other universities announced, "We will no longer compete with Brigham Young University in intercollegiate athletics because of this ban." Well, that didn't get it changed, but it put a lot of pressure on. …

Greg Prince

Several universities such as Stanford University in California were refusing to play games with BYU because of its "discrimination". When BYU teams played at other schools, BYU athletes were often pelted with eggs or rocks, called "racists" and threatened with death.

Black Mormon Homepage.

Some universities, like Stanford University, refuse to allow their teams to play teams from BYU. At other events, BYU players are threatened, spit-upon, and harassed by some black and white students and protesters.

Darrick Evenson (a black Mormon.)

 

[maklelan]

Since Smith was "translating" for 19th century Americans, why did he "translate" into faux 16th century English?

Actually it's 17th century English he was imitating, and he explained it was because it would be more readily associated with scripture that way.

 

[tomasortega]

little joseph also had an obsession with using the king james bible derived phrases "AND IT CAME TO PASS..." and "EXCEEDINGLY (SORE)"

in fact, he used "it came to pass" close to 1300 times .... thats 3 times as often as in the bible although the bible is nearly 5 times as big as the bom. talk about overkill.

here is an article on it

Dwindling In Unbelief: And it came to pass